ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, what you described above is pretty much how I hear the differences between a great tube amp and a great ss amp. They do indeed have different flavors. When you talk about running out of gas with the tube amp, I think you must be talking about VERY high spl’s indeed! One thing that I think most of us would agree with is that a tube amp isn’t going to have the same kind of slam in the bass as a great ss amp. However, since you are utilizing the active bass panel amps for that purpose, I wouldn’t think that should be in effect as to this limitation. This is what puzzles me...the Lamms should have no trouble driving your mid/tweet panels to full capacity.

Davey,

the enemy of the great is the astonishing. it's all about your reference for what ease and authority might be on large scale music. and no post is going to explain that to you nor do I expect it to. Wilson Alex's with D'ag 300 watt amps are not in the same hemisphere with MM7's + dart 458's in my room. many degrees of magnitude difference. so our references are not aligned. YMMV, just how I see things.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In my early reply to this thread I asked Mike if he was planning to use the Lamms with only certain types of music. In light of his experiences with the top of of the line Berning 211/845 amp in his system it was in my view to be expected that the Lamms would run out of steam with (very) demanding music pieces in his set up.

My set Kagura’s (which are clearly stronger than the Lamms (if you take the nominal watts into consideration) sound much more powerful and dynamic after three Tripoint master reference mk ii were inserted in my system. And with much I really mean much. Apart from all other benefits this additional (perceived) power might exactly be what you need for the Lamms. But apart from the additional power your system will be elevated to a level you have never experienced before with this new ground cable. It is a majestic piece of audio equipment.

Rudolf,

I have zero doubt that the new Master Reference MK II cables make significant differences in many things. I can only imagine what they might do.

but those cables bridging the gap between the Lamm's and darts on large scale music? not likely getting them even close. improving the Lamm's significantly in many qualitative ways? sure, i'd buy that.

honestly you need to try an amp like the big darts in your system to really understand where i'm coming from here. no way to explain it. you got to hear it. not saying you would prefer it, but it would take things on some music to another level to give you that reference.

this is no different than me being open to trying the Lamm's in my system. people were shocked. but it's how you change your reference and get that other viewpoint.....to understand.

 

[Audiocrack]

Rudolf,

I have zero doubt that the new Master Reference MK II cables make significant differences in many things. I can only imagine what they might do.

but those cables bridging the gap between the Lamm's and darts on large scale music? not likely getting them even close. improving the Lamm's significantly in many qualitative ways? sure, i'd buy that.

Never heard your ss amps, Mike, so I am not claiming at all that adding this ground cable will bridge the gap. What I do know from my own experience with my own set amps is that the Lamms will benefit very significantly as regards (perceived) power and dynamics. You have no idea how good this cable is but of course it is completely up to you.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey,

the enemy of the great is the astonishing. it's all about your reference for what ease and authority might be on large scale music. and no post is going to explain that to you nor do I expect it to. Wilson Alex's with D'ag 300 watt amps are not in the same hemisphere with MM7's + dart 458's in my room. many degrees of magnitude difference. so our references are not aligned. YMMV, just how I see things.

Mike, my reference for ease and authority is what I hear when I go to a 'live' venue. Depending on said venue and the type of music being played, the ease and authority will modify. Playing live with a group on stage, as I have done, also tends to impact one's thoughts on this subject. BTW, have you ever had the opportunity to step on stage with a band or with a group? It's a pretty great experience if you have not and I would highly recommend it. Sheer volume and swell is not always what, at least IMHO, the 'live' sound of music is totally about. I agree with you, no post can explain what you are actually hearing in your system...or for matter what I am hearing in mine or anybody else's. However, I do know that some a'philes believe ( incorrectly IME and based on my performing live) that the live sound is many times more 'volume' than the reproduced. This is in many cases not always true. Take for instance studio musician work....when one is in the studio, the volume level is usually fairly low..and certainly always modified by the engineer. The isolation of each instrument will mean that the authority and scale cannot be even heard by the other musicians! Many times, this is also true on stage, which is why at times you will see speakers placed on stage that face towards the band members....in order for them to actually hear what is being produced. ( Although today, I know that most band members are wearing earphones in order to hear the beat, etc.)
Our perception of ease and authority may very well differ, but i do not think that Alex's with D'ag 300 watt amps are not going to be in the same hemisphere as your MM7's with dart 458's...unless, that is, you have cranked the hell out of the Dart's and the D'Ag's are playing at what most people would consider as 'normal' levels.
I'm beginning to think that I would be screaming in pain with the massive volume ( in order to get that swell!) that you seem to be indicating is how you listen....and I have been on stage with ten (10) Marshall stacks at full bore (albeit wearing ear plugs, thank the lord!)...Yikes, LOL

 

[spiritofmusic]

I run true 101dB spkrs.
Used to power them w 200W SS, then 35W tubes, now 70W tubes.
Spkrs incorporate 350W powered SS subs.
Room 800sq ft/5500 cub ft.
So a room similar in size to Mike.
And spkrs more efficient still, and also w high powered subs.
Close to Mike’s physical situation.
No doubt my sound “runs out of stream” when overly pushed on orchestral, big band jazz, on both sets of tube amps.
It doesn’t break down, it just hardens a little, and seems less elastic at its limits.
With my SS main amp, that hardening doesn’t appear anywhere near as apparent, the sound can still stretch its legs at v high levels.
But but but...these are levels I very rarely play at, the room is more apparent in constricting energy and tone at these levels.
And despite my SS amp able to push things on, my tubes STILL sound more holistic and tuneful/soulful even when under duress.
Drop the levels a notch or two to the point where the tube amps not under duress, and the sound envelope is decidedly more expansive and full than the SS, even though the SS amp appears to be a little more detailed and neutral.
For me it’s not a deal breaker, tubes still King, but interesting when pushing things, even w very efficient spkrs.

 

[bonzo75]

So I think those who have not heard Mike's system, or been near a listening room so well developed, should all extrapolate from their experiences and conclude that Mike listens loudly at ear splitting levels. Now that all of you agree we can move on.

 

[Audiocrack]

Rudolf,

I have zero doubt that the new Master Reference MK II cables make significant differences in many things. I can only imagine what they might do.

but those cables bridging the gap between the Lamm's and darts on large scale music? not likely getting them even close. improving the Lamm's significantly in many qualitative ways? sure, i'd buy that.

honestly you need to try an amp like the big darts in your system to really understand where i'm coming from here. no way to explain it. you got to hear it. not saying you would prefer it, but it would take things on some music to another level to give you that reference.

this is no different than me being open to trying the Lamm's in my system. people were shocked. but it's how you change your reference and get that other viewpoint.....to understand.

Of course I heard numerous ss amps in my audio life, including (very expensive) ss powerhouses. Several of them in my own audio systems over the years (and indeed never really liked them with (only) one exemption: the various Pass Aleph amps). So I know exactly what you are talking about. Set amps have their (power) restrictions and need to be optimized within their limitations. And I already mentioned how this can be realized.

 

[wisnon]

Davey,

the enemy of the great is the astonishing. it's all about your reference for what ease and authority might be on large scale music. and no post is going to explain that to you nor do I expect it to. Wilson Alex's with D'ag 300 watt amps are not in the same hemisphere with MM7's + dart 458's in my room. many degrees of magnitude difference. so our references are not aligned. YMMV, just how I see things.

Mike, Check your PM please!

 

[morricab]

Thanks - it is known that tubes in general sound more powerful than the equivalently measuring SS. But we also have some SS amps that sounded more powerful than expected - for example the Hiraga class A designs. But what I was addressing was a completely different type of sound with powerful music - not tambourines. Anyway the only way of feeling the high power, high quality effects is listening - and this is my only point: reporting my experience. The article by Peter van Willenswaard was interesting but lacks any systematic approach and is too particular - for example a comparison with a class A amplifier is vague, usually class A amplifiers can have much higher peaks in class AB, something that was not considered in the article.

The tamborine recording was a good example of a sudden high dynamic recorded up close and proves the point that for sudden dyanmic transients tubes can go way beyond their rated steady state power...it doesn't matter what the instrument is...it oculd be spoons dropped on a tile floor at 20 cm distance or a gunshot or a blat on a trumpet...whatever. It is not too particular and illustrates the point in a controlled enough manner. Of course other amps may behave differently but the SS amps with negative feedback will not stray too far from his example because of their abrupt clipping behavior, which can be easily seen on Stereophile plots...this limits this abiltiy to scale beyond the rated power. Also, the recovery of amps from overload is much faster than amps with negative feedback...this has been demonstrated a number of times by various writiers. So, while the SET or no feedback PP tube amp might clip, it stops clipping as soon as the signal drops within the power band of the amp...this is not the case for amps with significant global feedback. They can take quite some time to recover, making the likelihood of a listener detecting that clipping far more likely. The tube amp might clip but you might not even notice because of the progressive nature and speed of recovery. What you are saying about Class A amps is not really true...for a high bias Class AB amp it is basically correct but a Class A amp of say, 60 watts will not have 150 watts of AB reserve...it will clip around 60 watts (if the rating is accurate). It will not slide to AB and give you 200 watts and if it does then it was not a true Class A amp to begin with.

IMO, PvW's idea of optimizing an amplifier for dynamic power seems like a not bad idea...most of the time we cruise around a watt or two so having a steady power of hundreds of watts makes no sense...particularly when it has to be deisgned in a way that compromises the sound quality, which I believe is largely what happens.

 

[gian60]

Similar trial my friend did like Mike.
Ha has Wilson Alexandria X2 with pre e phono CH and with Viva New Aurora,a very good SET,zero negative feedback pure class A with around 38 watt
Power is enough and sound is very good of this system,and he has a good but not big room.
Before had also Viva top preamp,but after tried CH L1,sold Viva and bought CH,and CH L1 was a perfect match with Viva.
He tried CH A1 in stereo and bought CH A1 mono,for all of us better than Viva with his speaker,voice seems more natural,bass more controlled and deep,high more open and liquid,seems Viva little roll off VS CH and now he listen that in many recording Viva power was not enough and has now power without limitation

 

[morricab]

No -- simply and solely for the reason that I have not heard them in a non-show situation, let alone a leisurely situation. If I were to hear them in a leisurely situation I might find them to be the best loudspeakers I have ever heard.

(In my analytical preference framework you know that I believe that one's musical preference is a high-correlation driver of loudspeaker preference. Since my primary musical preference is not jazz it is very unlikely I would prefer the systems you mention over the systems I mentioned. If I listened primarily to jazz I think it is extremely likely I would have gotten a Cessaro Gamma II system or the Viva Masterhorn system, and never look back.)

That makes sense, it is your frame of reference for speakers.

I don't agree, completely with your belief in one's musical preference being a primary driver for speaker preference. Maybe for lower end speakers where the compromises are greater but not for the better speakers. Speakers that are limited dynamically might be best suited for rock/pop music, which is highly compressed and doesn't require a wide dynamic range to be delivered cleanly and realistically. I had a pair of Dynaudios that really felt like this...they were dead at low volumes and started to sound compressed when you got beyond maybe 90-95db. Listening to low dynamic range pop was great on them in the 80-90db range where the smoothness and neutrality of the speaker could work well. Classical was a no go and Jazz just worked...just. Since then though, I have found a lot of better speakers that are good on a wide range of music of all genres and I don't see such limitations with truly high end speakers.

 

[morricab]

"Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems"

you keep saying that, but it misses the main point. and maybe you just don't understand what I'm talking about. loudness is involved, but it's more a matter of control and lack of any effort. the music is freed up to just 'go' without any limits. there is a force behind the music that is palpable. if you reach amplifier limits by definition the music is no longer effortless. a key issue for that emotional connection.....and what we refer to as 'design envelope'. the ML3's have a clearly defined one (in my system). musically, with my darts there are no limits for music. the system easily exceeds any musical need without even breathing hard.

I don't play at really high SPL's, but I do play with the room fully energized but with enormous head room. which is how real life is too.

big music, but real.

You have said that you get peaks on the 458s of well over 200 watts, right? Let's run some numbers to see how loud that is. It comes out to about 120db peaks. That is really, really loud in a home setting. What you are describing though is a preceptual thing that it feels or sounds effortless...I can't comment on this only on how loud you seem to be listening based on information you have provided. The ML3 peaks out probably about 5db lower...unless we take Peter van Wilenswaards observations into account and your speaker/music combo allows this generation.

 

[morricab]

Not to mention that even in real life, there are [apparently] instantaneous peaks that go well above 100db...take a look at this article about clanging metal in bowls, kitchens, etc. They cite but did not quite get to 110-115db for an instantaneous spoon being dropped on a plate...but did get to 100-105 several times with various pots/pans.

I can imagine in a sound system, there can be instantaneous peaks at these levels when cymbals are playing, etc. even when the base music is at 80db-85db.

http://canadianaudiologist.ca/common-transient-sounds-the-kitchen-is-a-very-noisy-place/

Depends on the distance from the source...at 3 meters for sure a lot less loud.

 

[morricab]

If you like distortion, sure.

audibility of distortion is both harmonic content dependent and SPL dependent...the louder the sound level the less sensitive you become to distortion. Since we are talking about the very loud end then this mitigates the audibility of the distortion. This is one of the interesting things about a no feeddback SET, the lower the level the lower the distortion gets where the audiblity becomes more critical and it increases when the output goes up and also the SPL goes up making it less audible.

 

[morricab]

Part of the question is always - at what distance? As far as I could see the article refers "Kitchen sink area at appr. 2 ft. distance". Not a typical listening condition!

Anyway since we have digital maximum levels can easily be quantified. IMHO the differences we perceive in amplifiers like the 458 or the ML3 are not only due to peak handling - it is a different type of sound, even at medium power.

Disclaimer - I have no real experience with the Lamm ML3.

" IMHO the differences we perceive in amplifiers like the 458 or the ML3 are not only due to peak handling - it is a different type of sound, even at medium power"

Agreed.

 

[morricab]

10% distortion at 32 watts is never gonna sound good...entire point of SET is using it at low power levels with declining distortion pattern unlike other topologies

If it is mostly low order harmonics and the SPL is 112db then it might not even be audible...at worst it will probably start to sound somewhat compressed because likely the amp doesn't actually hard clip at that power.

 

[morricab]

Davey, I think your reference for ease and authority at high SPL's needs some work. you are welcome to visit anytime and we can fix that.

and there is nothing wrong with the Lamm's performance in my system, just that at 32 watts they cannot compete with 550 watts on specific recordings of some types of music. on other music that 32 watts is plenty fine. it's just physics.

and well....er.....the Lamm's, to my ears, are noticeably (but not night and day) more dynamically capable in my system compared to my recollection of Steve's system, as they should be with a 3db easier load and not needing to power bass below 40hz. those are significant advantages for a modestly powered tube amplifier. of course, this is just my aural memory, and what we see 'on paper'. YMMV.

and Steve does not have a top flight solid state alternative to compare to the Lamm's in his system. so my comments of my comparison really are not relevant to how Steve views this. he has no reference for the difference. if he were to try some solid state alternatives that were without power limitation and see what that result showed him, then we would have a basis for discussion. right now it's just guessing. absent a real world test, who knows what Steve might find?

and i'm not saying he should do that, as he is thrilled with what he is hearing now. no reason to go there. but if we are using our perception of Steve's system as evidence of 'well enough' then I would challenge that idea compared to what a top level solid state amp can do.

i'm not being critical of Steve's system or trying to stir the sh*t either. you have opened this door and i'm trying to be honest about how this plays out.

The power isn't the issue unless you are pushing the SPL really high. What might not be so clear is how tough the MM7s are to drive and if they are REALLY 97db. I have not been able to find any independent measurements. I remember the Audio Note AN-E speaker being rated at 96db and then Stereophile measured 92db... a large difference. It is not the only example where a manufacturer had a much higher number than reality. If your speakers are really more like 94db then tht already makes a big difference and you could then be running into limitations. Just a thought...

 

[morricab]

I run true 101dB spkrs.
Used to power them w 200W SS, then 35W tubes, now 70W tubes.
Spkrs incorporate 350W powered SS subs.
Room 800sq ft/5500 cub ft.
So a room similar in size to Mike.
And spkrs more efficient still, and also w high powered subs.
Close to Mike’s physical situation.
No doubt my sound “runs out of stream” when overly pushed on orchestral, big band jazz, on both sets of tube amps.
It doesn’t break down, it just hardens a little, and seems less elastic at its limits.
With my SS main amp, that hardening doesn’t appear anywhere near as apparent, the sound can still stretch its legs at v high levels.
But but but...these are levels I very rarely play at, the room is more apparent in constricting energy and tone at these levels.
And despite my SS amp able to push things on, my tubes STILL sound more holistic and tuneful/soulful even when under duress.
Drop the levels a notch or two to the point where the tube amps not under duress, and the sound envelope is decidedly more expansive and full than the SS, even though the SS amp appears to be a little more detailed and neutral.
For me it’s not a deal breaker, tubes still King, but interesting when pushing things, even w very efficient spkrs.

How far from the speakers do you sit? That is more important than the room size.

 

[morricab]

So I think those who have not heard Mike's system, or been near a listening room so well developed, should all extrapolate from their experiences and conclude that Mike listens loudly at ear splitting levels. Now that all of you agree we can move on.

I can do math. He says the speakers are 97 db and pushes power well in excess of 200 watts. Also, he sits quite close, right? The math shows something on the order of 120+db peaks... I don't know, do you consider this loud?

 

[wisnon]

You have said that you get peaks on the 458s of well over 200 watts, right? Let's run some numbers to see how loud that is. It comes out to about 120db peaks. That is really, really loud in a home setting. What you are describing though is a preceptual thing that it feels or sounds effortless...I can't comment on this only on how loud you seem to be listening based on information you have provided. The ML3 peaks out probably about 5db lower...unless we take Peter van Wilenswaards observations into account and your speaker/music combo allows this generation.

I have seen peaks on the 458 up top 1007w! Often over 900w and plenty-plenty over 700w. this was on female vocals, like Chie Ayado's Tennessee Waltz. This was at midnight in the basement at Chez Herve!

Yes, it was loud...but that is the beauty of a basement when bedrooms are two floors above. LoL