ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Al M.]

it can't be that an SET has limits even though it's obvious.

How dare you, Mike. This just can't be. SETs have no limitations. Something must be fundamentally wrong with your system set-up.






(insert emoji)

 

[morricab]

you and Davey seem incapable of even reading answers given to this question over......and.....over......and.....over again. you just keep asking the same question, then questioning the specs. it can't be that an SET has limits even though it's obvious.

I guess if you ask the question enough times you don't need to accept the answers. like watching the damn news shows. question things enough times and you create your own truth. why actually ask if you are going to ignore responses?

open your own thread, buy a high level solid state amp, and see what conclusions you come to. you clearly have no interest in my conclusions.

I think you got me wrong, Mike. I am very interested in your findings; however, the life of these threads is that we take what you give us from your observations and then muse on why that is like that, or how can it be like that, or what is behind the observations in terms of the rest of your system, our perception of your biases, our own biases etc. etc. We do this because we can't all just come over, hear it for ourselves and then have a debate on the spot. We are not ignoring your responses, in fact we are reacting to them, digesting them, poking and proding them. I am with 853 guy in thanking you for sharing the experience...I guess it would be nice in a way for you if we all just said thanks and went away and thought our own thoughts in private. However, we choose to hash them out with other in this forum. I personally never really doubted your obsrevations but wondered how you came to them (thus my prodding about the SPL you listen at, etc.). I will revert to a passive observer from here on out...

 

[audioquattr]

748 posts and counting ...

We can all agree that Mike has a SOTA system, probably better than most participants in this thread. I cannot understand this "debate". Why not let Mike try the different amps in his own pace and then let him comment about his findings? It started with Mike`s post about the purchase of the Lamm amps and now we have some kind of pissing contest of which type of amps are the best? ....
.

+1

748 posts and counting ...
I always enjoy Mike`s posts here, it is very interesting to follow his steps towards his dream system. He must be very close now . I also suspect that Mike is very capable of getting the most out of his own system without the "help" from us.

+2

I also very much like Mike's posts and his respectfull way of contributing.

 

[audioquattr]

Brad, it is very obvious that you have a single-minded obsession with SET amps (and horns!), and do not even tolerate the idea that for some people tube push-pull amps, even triode push-pull, can sound as good as SETs. Not even to speak of SS amps.

So yes, your single-minded obsession that also manifests itself in claims that SETs can drive all sorts of difficult loads, which other people reasonably deny they are capable of, is somewhat aggravating and tiresome.

It seems that you think your perception should apply to all people -- if they would just know and were enlightened enough. Well, it just doesn't (I for example have heard fantastic SET amps, but I find other amp types just as fantastic sounding).

Time for you to back off.

***

I of course have also my obsessions, like monitor/sub combos. Yet I am not dogmatic about them, and while I often rave about their virtues I also regularly and honestly point out their limitations, which are fewer than most people would think, but which are there nonetheless. Why can't you just live with the idea that the SET approach has its limitations too, and is not for everyone?

+1

 

[rockitman]

+1


+2

i also very much like mike's posts and his respectfull way of contributing.

+458 !!!

 

[audioquattr]

I think someone will have to invent a new amplification device that is more linear than either a triode or a transistor.

Maybe YOU can invent that. You seems to know everything.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If it gets invented, Mike will buy it, and the new thread will go on and on.

 

[KeithR]

A quick search showed that Evolution Acoustics states that the MicroOnes are 6 Ohms. The Hi-Fi Plus review has measurements that shows the impedance dips to, but not below 4 Ohms at 200 hz. The impedance is below 6 ohms from 100hz though 4K. So, like most speaker manufacturers, you have to take the impedance specs with a big grain of salt.

correct, but i wonder if falling to 4 ohms from 6 is that big a deal if phase is maintained.

here are the measurements for all:

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/Assets/evolution_acoustics_mmmicroone_speakers_review_test_lores.pdf

I think one thing not mentioned but that can matter is how many drivers the SET is driving - and the MM7 has a bunch of 11" drivers as Mike's touched on. Said another way, multi-driver + crossover will probably make it more difficult to drive than a 97db horn.

 

[Al M.]

I think one thing not mentioned but that can matter is how many drivers the SET is driving - and the MM7 has a bunch of 11" drivers as Mike's touched on. Said another way, multi-driver + crossover will probably make it more difficult to drive than a 97db horn.

Indeed, the number and kind of drivers. The push-pull triode amps of just 15 W/ch (Audio Innovations Second Audio) that I listened to for 26 years had an easy time with the old, classical Rogers LS3/5a speakers, which are literally bookshelf speakers in size, despite their nominal sensitivity of just 83 dB. Almost any tube amp could drive these speakers, also given their light impedance load. Yet on Goldmund speakers of nominal sensitivity of 96 dB, but with a large bass driver, the same amps were 'dying'. Which proved to me back then that nominal sensitivity gives you only limited information about drivability of a speaker.

 

[ddk]

For whatever reason people are coming to a lot false conclusions about Mike's Yin & Yang and at the risk of Chumming and restarting the frenzy a 96db figure doesn't say anything about a speaker and any assumption based solely on that number is wrong! I have a lot of experience with Accuton drivers and while they can sound nice and pretty with tubes and some low wattage they need current to come to life. Those 11" ceramic woofer's current demands aren't far off ribbon panels and ribbon tweeters of that size also need juice to sparkle. You can't compare the MM7 to Steve's Wilson's which are true high sensitivity design and lose little or nothing when paired with high end SETs like the ML3s. This isn't a case of Lamm's running out of steam with a high sensitivity speaker, on the EA you'll even find a 300w tube amp lacking compared to an equivalent high current SS amplifier, one has to make choices here. There's another fly in the ointment which I'm not sure how aware of Mike is right now. He's fine tuned the system with the Darts for years and matched the subs to his amps, it will be very difficult to integrate the bass of a plate amp with a SET's low end. Personally I found it impossible to blend these too technologies and have a fully coherent integrated sonic fabric.

david

 

[DaveyF]

For whatever reason people are coming to a lot false conclusions about Mike's Yin & Yang and at the risk of Chumming and restarting the frenzy a 96db figure doesn't say anything about a speaker and any assumption based solely on that number is wrong! I have a lot of experience with Accuton drivers and while they can sound nice and pretty with tubes and some low wattage they need current to come to life. Those 11" ceramic woofer's current demands aren't far off ribbon panels and ribbon tweeters of that size also need juice to sparkle. You can't compare the MM7 to Steve's Wilson's which are true high sensitivity design and lose little or nothing when paired with high end SETs like the ML3s. This isn't a case of Lamm's running out of steam with a high sensitivity speaker, on the EA you'll even find a 300w tube amp lacking compared to an equivalent high current SS amplifier, one has to make choices here. There's another fly in the ointment which I'm not sure how aware of Mike is right now. He's fine tuned the system with the Darts for years and matched the subs to his amps, it will be very difficult to integrate the bass of a plate amp with a SET's low end. Personally I found it impossible to blend these too technologies and have a fully coherent integrated sonic fabric.

david

Good grief....+1

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, Page 78 already on this thread.
Dave’s fly in the ointment could add ANOTHER 78.
I hope Mike has got the patience...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use powered subs w yr Bionors? Don’t you have the self same problem as Mike?

 

[GMKF]

For whatever reason people are coming to a lot false conclusions about Mike's Yin & Yang and at the risk of Chumming and restarting the frenzy a 96db figure doesn't say anything about a speaker and any assumption based solely on that number is wrong! I have a lot of experience with Accuton drivers and while they can sound nice and pretty with tubes and some low wattage they need current to come to life. Those 11" ceramic woofer's current demands aren't far off ribbon panels and ribbon tweeters of that size also need juice to sparkle. You can't compare the MM7 to Steve's Wilson's which are true high sensitivity design and lose little or nothing when paired with high end SETs like the ML3s. This isn't a case of Lamm's running out of steam with a high sensitivity speaker, on the EA you'll even find a 300w tube amp lacking compared to an equivalent high current SS amplifier, one has to make choices here. There's another fly in the ointment which I'm not sure how aware of Mike is right now. He's fine tuned the system with the Darts for years and matched the subs to his amps, it will be very difficult to integrate the bass of a plate amp with a SET's low end. Personally I found it impossible to blend these too technologies and have a fully coherent integrated sonic fabric.

david

+70

 

[Sharp 1080]

It’s a little surprising to me that Mike feels that the Lamm’s run out of juice when called to reproduce very high spl’s. This was certainly not the case when I heard the amps at Steve’s place. In fact, I thought the dynamic envelope that the Wilsons elicited with the ML3’s was one of the best I had heard. The Lamm’s seemed to coast along with no sweat on his big Wilson’s. So, even though I am sure Mike’s room is a lot larger than Steve’s, I would question whether there is something else at work here, something that is holding the ML3’s back. The Wilson’s that Steve uses are a pretty benign load, I wonder if the MM7’s are actually not so benign. Perhaps there is something of an impedance mismatch or some such thing??

Steve, have you ever wished for higher head room in your SQ. ...I doubt it.

I have also visited Steve's room. I can say for a fact that it played back all sources just fine. I didn't hear any lacking of dynamics at all!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dynamics can be defined in lots of ways. For some it’s just ability to do sheer volume/loudness. For some it’s the ability to turn on a dime. For some it’s the ability to scale effortlessly. For some it’s the ability to cruise along at moderate levels and then have a transient smack you between the eyes, and then go back to cruise control.
I think my high efficiency Zus and high power SETs are highly dynamic. I suspect I’m dead wrong, as a visit to User211’s Apogees setup showed me, and Blue58’s AG Duos continue to show me.
And I’m sure Mike’s Darts would absolutely convince me LOL.
Mike, if he’s not already bored to death w his own thread, might concur that for him the ability to shock w uber dynamic transients like rim shots or trumpet blats in the Darts has the beating of the Lamms.
If I’m wrong I’m sure he’ll inform me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sometimes when i Read An audiophile forum IT seems to me were going in circles .
The exact same topics are discussed with more OR less the same outcome

 

[cjfrbw]

Heh, Heh! Maybe those 458s are wimping out. Time to get another pair and bridge them, along with a personal power generating station on the Columbia River.

 

[Steve williams]

I’ve read this thread with great interest especially since my system continues to be compared to Mikes The bottom line is my system has never run out of gas. Period end of story.

I totally agree with David’s hypothesis re the MM7. My speakers are plain easy to drive plus I use my ML3 to drive my bottom end. Not once in all the years I’ve had the amp can I say that my system lacked punch or dynamics. To me the inherent deficiency is the ease with which the ML3 will power the drivers. My speakers are a breeze to drive. So to hone down into a root cause analysis I don’t see a thing wrong with the ML3 in my system one bit. I understand and agree with David’s supposition that there is perhaps a mismatch with the amps trying to drive Mikes speakers. Let’s make no mistake that I just don’t have nor have I ever had this problem in my system. I say this only because I read this thread and constantly am reading about my system compared to Mikes. The only similarity is the ML3 in both systems. I have read here about nominal sensitivity and how some readers are questioning the efficacy of 97db sensitive speaker and lacking dynamics. It makes perfect sense that Mikes is a more difficult speaker to drive due to the ceramic drivers. In this case I understand totally why he runs out of gas. I will say again that in my system I just have never had this problem. My speakers are 95 dB efficient.

 

[DaveC]

Sometimes when i Read An audiophile forum IT seems to me were going in circles .
The exact same topics are discussed with more OR less the same outcome

Forums reflect life. We go in circles. It's a pita.