ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[ddk]

there is no replacement for displacement. resembling real large scale life needs headroom. with the darts I have unlimited headroom for musical purposes with my speakers. so large scale music of any kind is simply effortless. a quality that must be experienced to be appreciated.

and this morning I do appreciate it.

What I said a couple of days ago regarding current requirements of ceramic drivers to come alive and everyone jumped on my head . You're were I was when I first discovered the Lamm ML2 and it's SET magic. Keep my then speakers and system which I loved or move out and find the right match to the ML2. It was an easy choice because I knew I had already reached the limits of solid state topology the next and final step for me was the Lamm SET so my choices since then. YMMV...

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Digital needs power? This makes no sense...

you would have to live for a while with a large scale system and uncompromised digital to appreciate what Micro is saying. to get the full performance and musicality of large scale digital you do need to feed it lots of power. as I said in another post an hour or so ago, when I went from my dart 108's to the 458's in my system, even with my very efficient speakers, it opened up the music, particularly the digital large scale music, a great deal. this is significant.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I wonder if such is possible...what amplifier suggestions might we make (???...)

suggest away....

Frankly...Mike just grab a beverage...sit back and enjoy....

If you must make a choice...toss a coin every now and then...heads the Darts ...tails the Lamms.

right now, a tall, cool, S. Pellegrino Sparkling Natural Mineral Water, my mid day beverage of choice. it seems, time for another. and the music is very fine sounding with the darts today.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

this morning i'm listening to large scale digital classical, which has been 50% of my listening for years. the ML3's could do it but the overall effect was slightly blunted (my mind thinking about what's missing?), so I avoided it......I mostly went with jazz, vocals, and smaller scale stuff and loved every minute of it. with the darts the big stuff is just so easy and flowing. the sound extends forever, the speed and micro-dynamic life and agility is hypnotic and reassuring. refinement and tone are just right . . .

This is interesting and makes perfect and predictable sense to me, and is excellent evidence of my and Kedar’s view that musical preference is a strong driver of equipment preference.

Contrary to y’all who are trying to pressure Mike to choose a winner between the ML3s and the 458s it makes perfect sense to me to prefer the ML3s on “jazz, vocals and smaller scale stuff” and to prefer the 458s on “large scale classical” and “big stuff.”

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What I said a couple of days ago regarding current requirements of ceramic drivers to come alive and everyone jumped on my head . You're were I was when I first discovered the Lamm ML2 and it's SET magic. Keep my then speakers and system which I loved or move out and find the right match to the ML2. It was an easy choice because I knew I had already reached the limits of solid state topology the next and final step for me was the Lamm SET so my choices since then. YMMV...

david

not all ceramic drivers, or contexts for them, are created equal. no doubt there were considerable downsides to the ceramic drivers in the Kharma's (and upsides too). there is no one perfect transducer material that is perfect in every application. it takes art to combine pieces together for a great speaker design.

with all due respect to you David.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Time to look for something that can bridge the divide??

Maybe I am wrong, either by misunderstanding you or by misunderstanding Mike, but I feel like this question shows that you still don’t get the whole point of Mike’s exercise here.

The ML3s are best at certain kinds of music and the 458s are best at other kinds of music. Each is best at different kinds of music because they sound different and because they do different things optimally.

I feel like the concept of “bridging the divide” misses the point of Mike’s exercise.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, and what does Mike play LZ3 with?
Darts on “Immigration Song” and Lamms on “Tangerine”?
Lamms on gentle strings on parts of Planets, Darts on “Mars”?
So many albums have delicate/simple and rocking/complex, one after the other, in the same song, it seems a false dichotomy to choose one amp for one style, and another for another.
IMHO, Mike will intimately get to know the Lamm over time, and only then he may make the decision the Darts do so much so well, and the Lamms SOME things as well or better, but the Darts will win out uniformly even on those pieces of music the Lamms are v well suited to.
But hey, I’m biased, I’m not in the camp of multiple arms/carts either. I’m a strictly one amp topology, one analog flavour guy.
But I do love Strawberry Cheesecake, Rocky Road, Banana Split etc etc ice creams.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I also have Both ss and tubes , i think its a good Idea to have Both at hand , they Both have their way in presenting things .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe I am wrong, either by misunderstanding you or by misunderstanding Mike, but I feel like this question shows that you still don’t get the whole point of Mike’s exercise here.

The ML3s are best at certain kinds of music and the 458s are best at other kinds of music. Each is best at different kinds of music because they sound different and because they do different things optimally.

I feel like the concept of “bridging the divide” misses the point of Mike’s exercise.

I think Brad's views reflect his expectations. and all ours are different. my large scale reproduced music expectations are considerable, and my system reflects it. but my views are not everyone's.

I guess when Brad wants to bridge the divide, what sort of standard/reference does he have for reproduced large scale music? do we have common ground on our reference for his perspective on a compromise amplifier to be relevant to my amplifier needs?

based on reading his postings I know he has high levels of live classical music listening, but I cannot recall his large scale reproduced music reference (size of room, type of speaker, frequency extension, etc.).

 

[Steve williams]

I think Brad's views reflect his expectations. and all ours are different. my large scale reproduced music expectations are considerable, and my system reflects it. but my views are not everyone's.

I guess when Brad wants to bridge the divide, what sort of standard/reference does he have for reproduced large scale music? do we have common ground on our reference for his perspective on a compromise amplifier to be relevant to my amplifier needs?

based on reading his postings I know he has high levels of live classical music listening, but I cannot recall his large scale reproduced music reference (size of room, type of speaker, frequency extension, etc.).

Mike

Your last post suggests to me that you’re saying only the Dart amp is capable of reproducing those dynamics. Surely there must be others. Or am I mis reading the intent of your post.

 

[ddk]

not all ceramic drivers, or contexts for them, are created equal. no doubt there were considerable downsides to the ceramic drivers in the Kharma's (and upsides too). there is no one perfect transducer material that is perfect in every application. it takes art to combine pieces together for a great speaker design.

with all due respect to you David.

Not sure what upside or downside we're talking about or why you think it's personal Mike, the Accuton drivers like all others have a quality wherever they're used or designers wont pick them over others. It's not a knock of any kind on the EA's Mike just a fact that they require more than 30 watts to come to life and all your posts confirm that. What I said is friendly advise after 20+ years with these electronics and tens of installs. I would have never commented had I known you'd take it this way or as turf war between EA, Wilson or any other speaker. I'm out.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

To really compare and say whether the EA is a harder OR easier to drive speaker , you need a independent sensitivity and impedance measurement

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

Your last post suggests to me that you’re saying only the Dart amp is capable of reproducing those dynamics. Surely there must be others. Or am I mis reading the intent of your post.

hi Steve,

there are many amps that can do dynamics, mostly relative to a load or frequency, the trick is always what is compromised to get those dynamics. and how special are those dynamics? how great is the first watt? the dart magic of low parts count, zero global feedback and overall minimalist design and tube like silky smoothness along with excellent dynamics is what is special about the big darts. when you compare it to other really top level solid state it has that little bit greater sense of naturalness, tonal rightness and refinement. it does do excellent intimacy and holographic lifelike presentation. so it's that 'hard part' of humanizing all that power which sets the big darts apart. there may be other powerful amps out there that are like the big darts, I've just not yet heard them do it. so I cannot say they are singular.

yet; this intimacy and tonal sexyness can be improved with an SET such as the ML3's as we both know so well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not sure what upside or downside we're talking about or why you think it's personal Mike, the Accuton drivers like all others have a quality wherever they're used or designers wont pick them over others. It's not a knock of any kind on the EA's Mike just a fact that they require more than 30 watts to come to life and all your posts confirm that. What I said is friendly advise after 20+ years with these electronics and tens of installs. I would have never commented had I known you'd take it this way or as turf war between EA, Wilson or any other speaker. I'm out.

david

you are making your opinions personal, not me. you have a right to any opinion you like, and I can agree or not. it's not religion or politics. it's just opinions on driver material and whether there is a universal one correct 'every case the same' view about it.

 

[morricab]

a unicorn?

I will keep my ears open for when I hear one. I've not heard anything else that does what either of my amps do best, let alone do what both do best.

not interested in an amplifier needing a 105 db or 110 db horn. i'd rather own these 2 amps and know I have what I want, rather than try to find it in a horn. not that a horn does not have a huge upside.

I love what my whole system does in it's current configuration. it's what I want.....but it's not for everyone.

I was thinking of a more powerful SET or perhaps PP Class A triode amp (CAT perhaps?). Given the relatively benign impedance of your speakers a powerful OTL might also work. One final thought would be the Ypsilon Single ended hybrid, which will give you around 120 watts and is literally a bridge between SET and PP transistor. Supposed to be a phenomenal amp...I have never heard it personally though.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, you are aware there are SETs out there that at least on paper are more suitable, like the 170W/ch all-Class A NAT Audio Magmas. If the Lamm truly isn’t the ideal complement to yr EAs.
I am biased, I’m a massive convert to the NAT sound.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I was thinking of a more powerful SET or perhaps PP Class A triode amp (CAT perhaps?). Given the relatively benign impedance of your speakers a powerful OTL might also work. One final thought would be the Ypsilon Single ended hybrid, which will give you around 120 watts and is literally a bridge between SET and PP transistor. Supposed to be a phenomenal amp...I have never heard it personally though.

I like all the CAT amps and Ypsilon amps I have heard. both very special and as a main amp fully worthy of (and present in many) a world class system. but for me they would both be compromises, neither equaling the best of the darts, or best of the ML3's. in my circumstances, the big darts are the main thing, and not losing any of their 'large scale' magic. so PP or moderately powered hybrid is going to fall short as a one amp solution.

as I think about my situation; probably the best way to put it is that the ML3's are honored guests in my darTZeel system. very honored guests.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, you are aware there are SETs out there that at least on paper are more suitable, like the 170W/ch all-Class A NAT Audio Magmas. If the Lamm truly isn’t the ideal complement to yr EAs.
I am biased, I’m a massive convert to the NAT sound.

I know you love your NAT's.

if I ever get a chance to listen to the NAT Audio Magmas, I will and let you know what I think.

 

[morricab]

you would have to live for a while with a large scale system and uncompromised digital to appreciate what Micro is saying. to get the full performance and musicality of large scale digital you do need to feed it lots of power. as I said in another post an hour or so ago, when I went from my dart 108's to the 458's in my system, even with my very efficient speakers, it opened up the music, particularly the digital large scale music, a great deal. this is significant.

Why would a large, high sensitivity system and top digital require more power? Shouldn't be the other way around?? Just sayin'...I would question that digital, that speaker system or both if that is really true.

Also, there is some evidence from measurements that the 108 has an under-designed power supply...it clearly doesn't like low impedances... so from that perspective, I guess I am not surprised that within that brand the power matters.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why would a large, high sensitivity system and top digital require more power? Shouldn't be the other way around?? Just sayin'...I would question that digital, that speaker system or both if that is really true.

answer the question I asked. have you gone there yourself? (uber digital with large scale system and tried big power?)

Also, there is some evidence from measurements that the 108 has an under-designed power supply...it clearly doesn't like low impedances... so from that perspective, I guess I am not surprised that within that brand the power matters.

and with a 7 ohm load and not needing to power below 40hz how is this relevant?