Excellent! The switch back to Darts and then back again to Lamms will be very instructive...surprised you lasted this long without going back...the curiosity would have been killing me.
ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Excellent! The switch back to Darts and then back again to Lamms will be very instructive...surprised you lasted this long without going back...the curiosity would have been killing me.
well.....er.....I have a pretty good idea how the dart sounds.....not that I don't have a bit of curiosity as well as desire to hear it on music where I clearly miss it. personally i'm more curious about how I will feel about the going back and forth. will it be as fun as I anticipated? i'll need a few cycles to understand it I suppose.
the reason for doing it today is my visitor is a dart owner. otherwise I would not have worried about doing it yet. there was no hurry on my part (which has no inference beyond that) as I am still taking measure of the ML3's.
I have been dipping in and out of this thread , but haven't read he whole thing yet due to constant work and family interruptions.
This thread has, at times, a pushy and unpleasant tone to it. It seems people are being rather cruel to Mike. Whereas so many, (Not All!) of the audio professionals and "journalists " generate a nauseating disgust at the mention of their name, the brand they market and promote, or their publication because they only Mislead, confound, confuse, and spit in the face of the fans, Mike is willing to help and share his knowledge and experiences to help people find their own audio happiness. A true mensch in his hobby.
Look, there is no doubt a Lamm preamp would sound great in his system. But this is also a hobby. We are not taking objective reality here. There are millions of subjective pleasures to be cooked up in his hobby. Some like to mix and match - and occasionally find outstanding results!
This thread has, at times, a pushy and unpleasant tone to it. It seems people are being rather cruel to Mike. Whereas so many, (Not All!) of the audio professionals and "journalists " generate a nauseating disgust at the mention of their name, the brand they market and promote, or their publication because they only Mislead, confound, confuse, and spit in the face of the fans, Mike is willing to help and share his knowledge and experiences to help people find their own audio happiness. A true mensch in his hobby.
Look, there is no doubt a Lamm preamp would sound great in his system. But this is also a hobby. We are not taking objective reality here. There are millions of subjective pleasures to be cooked up in his hobby. Some like to mix and match - and occasionally find outstanding results!
first impressions switching back to the dart 458's, which had been un-plugged now for 2 weeks.
--tonally flat and lifeless for the first 5-10 minutes.
--at about 15 minutes a bit of tonal life creeps in and gently ramps up for about an hour at a fairly strong rate, then slower since then.
--now at 2 hours it's maybe 60% there.
immediately at 'turn-on' the top end air is considerably improved, as is the sense of authority and scale. more room filling. the micro-dynamics are much more present, with greater overall energy projection. bass heft is a bit less forceful, but more broadly gripping. vocals were somewhat washed out in the first 11-15 minutes, but soon after got definition and substance.....but not in ML3 territory for sure. we will see later how close they come.....I don't expect them to get all the way to the ML3's in that way.
do I miss the ML3's? somewhat yes at this point. do I appreciate the dart's additions? sure; but the synergy is not yet all the way back. and I've not yet played any 'full-tilt boggie' big music......which is a big part of my system building and important to me. i'll comment when I get to that part.
it's how I deal with this in-between part that I have to adapt to, and how that will play out in visitor sessions where i'm switching mid session. I could see planning a meal at switchover point and give it an hour. or maybe starting with a fully synergized darTZeel and then switching to the ML3's will be less of a compromise. i'll have to figure it out.
--tonally flat and lifeless for the first 5-10 minutes.
--at about 15 minutes a bit of tonal life creeps in and gently ramps up for about an hour at a fairly strong rate, then slower since then.
--now at 2 hours it's maybe 60% there.
immediately at 'turn-on' the top end air is considerably improved, as is the sense of authority and scale. more room filling. the micro-dynamics are much more present, with greater overall energy projection. bass heft is a bit less forceful, but more broadly gripping. vocals were somewhat washed out in the first 11-15 minutes, but soon after got definition and substance.....but not in ML3 territory for sure. we will see later how close they come.....I don't expect them to get all the way to the ML3's in that way.
do I miss the ML3's? somewhat yes at this point. do I appreciate the dart's additions? sure; but the synergy is not yet all the way back. and I've not yet played any 'full-tilt boggie' big music......which is a big part of my system building and important to me. i'll comment when I get to that part.
it's how I deal with this in-between part that I have to adapt to, and how that will play out in visitor sessions where i'm switching mid session. I could see planning a meal at switchover point and give it an hour. or maybe starting with a fully synergized darTZeel and then switching to the ML3's will be less of a compromise. i'll have to figure it out.
Mike,
I don't know about the 458, but the 108 liked to be simply plugged on the wall, with the "power nose" off (no other cables). Maybe you can leave the 458s on the grid, just not powered on...
I don't know about the 458, but the 108 liked to be simply plugged on the wall, with the "power nose" off (no other cables). Maybe you can leave the 458s on the grid, just not powered on...
Maybe it's too late but both amps should be left on and ready to go if you want to do quick changes between amps. Warm up is so different from when amp is ready that it makes comparisons almost meaningless.
I envy Mike having the space and facility to accommodate the two approaches.
I have owned BAT and ARC tube gear but have never heard any Lamm equipment. I enjoyed owning the Dartzeel NHB-18NS model one pre, up until a couple of years ago. Below is a quote from an article when I was investigating the 18NS.
Hervé Delétraz interview....( http://www.audioreference.co.nz/review/hervé-delétraz-interview-mike-malinowksi )
Q: What about tube amps, some measure poorly but are very musical.
A: Some tube amps, yes, but I think that with tube amps, if you keep them for two or ten years, you could end up with fatigue because the sound becomes too polite, too round, too smooth. With the 108, we noticed the opposite effect; the longer a customer listened, the more they liked it.
Presumably Mr Lamm will have a completely different take.
I have owned BAT and ARC tube gear but have never heard any Lamm equipment. I enjoyed owning the Dartzeel NHB-18NS model one pre, up until a couple of years ago. Below is a quote from an article when I was investigating the 18NS.
Hervé Delétraz interview....( http://www.audioreference.co.nz/review/hervé-delétraz-interview-mike-malinowksi )
Q: What about tube amps, some measure poorly but are very musical.
A: Some tube amps, yes, but I think that with tube amps, if you keep them for two or ten years, you could end up with fatigue because the sound becomes too polite, too round, too smooth. With the 108, we noticed the opposite effect; the longer a customer listened, the more they liked it.
Presumably Mr Lamm will have a completely different take.
When switching components many people wisely question if during warmup the electronics improves, we adapt ourselves gradually to the new sound characteristics or a mix of both. In order to avoid this gradual adaptation, since long when wanting to compare electronics I use the Purist Audio Luminist System Enhancer CD to warmup the system before listening.
Most equipment needs a few hours warmup before reaching their full capabilities, even if left in standby mode. I have found that the enhancer CD really speeds and optimizes the system in a fast way - it fact it is permanent resident in my system, playing most of the time in a $50 DVD player in repeat mode connected to the system through a Toslink optical cable. When wanting to warmup/break in just specific components I use the RCA audio outputs through a passive. A final point - for these separate warmup that imply connecting and disconnecting signal wires I always use cables with NF2C-B/2 Neutrik RCA connectors - they break the signal line before the ground - mandatory to avoid disasters - or a RCA-XLR transformer equipped adapter.
this morning (with the dart in standby all night) things seem back to normal with the dart, as all the cables and especially the grounding cables have settled in and sound right. i'm hearing typically excellent meat on the bones and degrees of tonal density. we will see as I revisit some different recordings how we are doing.
right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.
right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.
Mike, “ducky” over this side of The Pond has a TOTALLY different meaning to how you’re using it LOL.
They are both masters of their trade with different approaches. One is not necessarily more experienced than the other. In the end, it's all a matter of personal preference but for some reason, some folks don't understand this basic truth.
LOL!
In British English ducky is used similar to "dear" or "darling" as a pet name for another person. In North American English, it is used to say that something is charming or delightful. So to say you are "just ducky" would mean you are delighted.
In British English ducky is used similar to "dear" or "darling" as a pet name for another person. In North American English, it is used to say that something is charming or delightful. So to say you are "just ducky" would mean you are delighted.
when I wrote that I did ponder that not all readers might take it the same.
in my case 'ducky' = right, good and normal. preferred, ok.
I will not venture any guesses about what it might mean 'over there'.
Let’s put it this way Mike, in the good old non-PC 1970s, when an openly gay (“camp”) guy would walk into a pub, the hardened heteros would all shout out “Hallo Ducky!”
And that’s if they were in a good mood LOL.
And that’s if they were in a good mood LOL.
Hi-FiGuy, the photo of Geddy, Alex and Neil on the inside cover of 2112 is one of the most Ducky pics ever. Charming, and just a little bit camp .
I think one conclusion we can draw from all this Mike is that you really like SETs done the Lamm way. The bass, texture, immersiveness. But there’s more you like about the Darts over a wider parameter range, w the added inbuilt advantage that you’re already intimately familiar w the Darts signature over a long period. And this ability to have instant unlimited headroom is critical to your ultimate suspension of disbelief versus maybe the Lamms being better in some ways “in the zone”, but not being able to truly flex their muscles/reach for the stratosphere.
Or maybe that’s too simplistic/hyperbolic?
Or maybe that’s too simplistic/hyperbolic?
+1;
Using the words of Nelson Pass, taken from the manual of his amplifiers: We create amplifiers that we like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste.
This thread is a particularly interesting, as it goes along a different subject - can someone live with two amplifiers having very different electronic sound signatures in the same system? Or in the long term he will prefer just one of them?
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