Happily WBF members are supposed to have a good sense of humor. Although this excellent Ott book is is now a classic on EMC, fortunately I did not need to wait until 2009 to read about EMC. Some decades ago, the Ott book we studied was "Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic Systems", perhaps a less sonorous name, and with only around 400 pages and plenty of EMC ...
ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Happily WBF members are supposed to have a good sense of humor. Although this excellent Ott book is is now a classic on EMC, fortunately I did not need to wait until 2009 to read about EMC. Some decades ago, the Ott book we studied was "Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic Systems", perhaps a less sonorous name, and with only around 400 pages and plenty of EMC ...
they are in separate boxes, the power supplies are separate, and there is no connection of any kind from the source to the speakers.
not sure what he is referring to....as the right and left signal paths have no opportunity to be connected.
am I missing something?
Remember you just got a $140k amplifier just because of the famous tiny differences ...
Remember you just got a $140k amplifier just because of the famous tiny differences ...
well, I can assure you that if those differences were tiny I would still have my money. they are profound differences worth the effort and expense.
the preamp and phono much less influence (relative to the dart pre) IMHO (than the ML3 verses the dart 458's), which is the only opinion I care about (my opinion is, of course, subject to change without notice).
Last edited:
Note:this is a general comment and may or may not be reflective of your actual situation. Now, with that disclaimer out of the way, I have found that the preamp can be every bit as profoundly significant to a systems sound as the amps...perhaps more so. I have found that this is especially true between SS and tube preamps...In general. Two come to mind that blur the line: Robert Koda and Lyra.
Whatever the differences will be...they will not be subtle...
You mean scamm
And regarding not needing a Lamm preamp, or it being too much, I guess Steve's system is "wrong"; ahem, far from it.
if the difference was really huge, why would have Vladimir allowed Michael Fremer to have used the (previous model) darTZeel preamp to write a review of the ML3 Signature amplifiers?
just say'n.
Last edited:
I do not say anything, but people should also read the review of the LL1.1. https://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ll1-signature-line-preamplifier. Then decide which review is more persuasive.
And I must say I would love to listen to the LL1.1 + M1.2 Ref. Sometimes reviewer enthusiasm is contagious
I do not say anything, but people should also read the review of the LL1.1. https://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ll1-signature-line-preamplifier. Then decide which review is more persuasive.
And I must say I would love to listen to the LL1.1 + M1.2 Ref. Sometimes reviewer enthusiasm is contagious
he compared the LL1.1 to " the Audio Valve Eclipse ($5799), the Zesto Leto ($7500), and the line stage of the Audio Research SP20 ($9000)"
not sure how helpful that is to persuade me i need it to optimize the ML3's. all the attributes he assigned to the LL1.1 i feel i have in my dart pre.
of course, after all this we know what will happen. on some future not too distant day you will read about my acquisition of an LL1.1.
Well usually Fremer reviews just one piece at a time and not whole systems. So it is not at all surprising. Also, did this preamp exist at the time of that review?
As I said, regardless of which is better the difference is likely not subtle.
Does anyone have any background on the Lamm designer and his approach? I heard - and possibly incorrectly - is that he designs with pen and paper only, and never by listening. Obviously, the proof is in the listening. But what makes this guy special?
psychoacoustic modeling basically. The ML3 is the closest at this point Vlad says he's ever gotten to his ideal. Having lived with almost all of his products save the signature series. I would say his model is darn good. Interestingly there are others that are very similar to him in that the bulk of their maths are run on simulators like SPICE and such because they know before hand from experience how parts correlate to the circuits and ultimately how the circuits are supposed to perform. No surprise that these guys also have decades of design experience under their belts.
Mike I was making a joke. Alex Jones is a known right wing conspiracy theorists that recently had his YouTube station taken down due to spreading false information. This thread is so out of hand with assumptions and conspiracy theories, I was trying to have fun.
I'll move on.....
This was also my understanding and one of the linchpins of what I take to be the only sensible approach to electronics design. Based on Lamm amp measurements his model must adhere closely to qualitative ideas espoused by Jean Hiraga and quantitative model by Cheever. The ML2 did very well comparatively with a much simpler model put forward in the 1950s by Shorter. I ran some calculations based on published data and the Lamm and the Wyetech 572B amp faired the best in weighted distortion.
not surprised it was something like that. my wife likely would have understood.
We use LTspice all the time for initial stages of design. It's a lot better than the smell of burning electronics, I can assure you. The problem is that the models for parts in LTspice may or may not be accurate, so that sometimes takes some extra work that people aren't always aware of... In fact Folsom has seen a few patents based on simulation that are not correct because of bad models.
Most designers are very thankful for the modern ability to more easily work, but if you don't like a computer you don't have to use one. You can draw it all out by hand and start doing math... it takes awhile to do - and actually you do a fair bit even when using LTspice. Once you have a working prototype you can confirm whether or not LTspice was accurate or your math was accurate, look for differences/problems & adjust. Nothing is particularly different. It's just personal preference, there isn't a better/worse quality to it so long as you can correctly represent the parts/models being used.
I'm not a circuit guy by any stretch of the imagination. My understanding is that they've made and refined their own models and have used them so much in simulation, bread boarding and final production that they are at points where any adjustments that need to be made are minimal and these themselves get put into the models in succeeding runs. An ongoing process. Vlad is the only one that has said that he's locked his model down but he said this a long time ago. It appears that with the most recent .x's he has expanded his parts bin but still adheres to the model. Whether the model itself has changed somewhat, I do not know. Vlad did tell me that each part is screened and subjected to a battery of measurements and listening tests. So it appears that there is the circuit model and subsets of parts models.
One thing that stands out with Lamm is that the products have unusually long product cycles. Many of his models ran over 10 years unchanged and continue to not only be competitive, they continue to be bestowed honors. If you think about it, the ML3 was launched over 10 years ago. The M1.2 Reference will be 15 years old the end of this year. What I love best is that they are extremely durable and thus very worry free. I've not had to send any unit back in 12 years. knock on wood!
One thing that stands out with Lamm is that the products have unusually long product cycles. Many of his models ran over 10 years unchanged and continue to not only be competitive, they continue to be bestowed honors. If you think about it, the ML3 was launched over 10 years ago. The M1.2 Reference will be 15 years old the end of this year. What I love best is that they are extremely durable and thus very worry free. I've not had to send any unit back in 12 years. knock on wood!
Last edited:
Similar threads
