ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Mike Lavigne]

I think one conclusion we can draw from all this Mike is that you really like SETs done the Lamm way. The bass, texture, immersiveness. But there’s more you like about the Darts over a wider parameter range, w the added inbuilt advantage that you’re already intimately familiar w the Darts signature over a long period. And this ability to have instant unlimited headroom is critical to your ultimate suspension of disbelief versus maybe the Lamms being better in some ways “in the zone”, but not being able to truly flex their muscles/reach for the stratosphere.
Or maybe that’s too simplistic/hyperbolic?

we are not to the end of this story to put any clear conclusion. I'm an hour or two into listening to the darts again 'right'.

but I think I can say that the ML3's are my idea of the ideal tube amp for me and my system. they are what I imagined they would be. and the dart's do things that are important to me. this morning i'm listening to large scale digital classical, which has been 50% of my listening for years. the ML3's could do it but the overall effect was slightly blunted (my mind thinking about what's missing?), so I avoided it......I mostly went with jazz, vocals, and smaller scale stuff and loved every minute of it. with the darts the big stuff is just so easy and flowing. the sound extends forever, the speed and micro-dynamic life and agility is hypnotic and reassuring. refinement and tone are just right. I know that every tiny part will come through unedited. so i'm relaxed. and that is the issue. how do I feel?

and this is just casual listening. and only digital. I've not pulled out any of the vinyl or tape 'big guns'.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Please go in the queue - first we want to see a LL1.1 there!

Francisco, jump in your chariot and bring me the LL1.1. then we will see.

 

[microstrip]

we are not to the end of this story to put any clear conclusion. I'm an hour or two into listening to the darts again 'right'.

but I think I can say that the ML3's are my idea of the ideal tube amp for me and my system. they are what I imagined they would be. and the dart's do things that are important to me. this morning i'm listening to large scale digital classical, which has been 50% of my listening for years. the ML3's could do it but the overall effect was slightly blunted, so I avoided it. with the darts it's just so easy and flowing. the sound extends forever, the speed and micro-dynamic life and agility is hypnotic and reassuring. I know that every tiny part will come through unedited. so i'm relaxed. and that is the issue. how do I feel?

and this is just casual listening. and only digital. I've not pulled out any of the vinyl or tape 'big guns'.

You are referring to a point that has been haunting me since I got the Metronome's, and now particularly with the Vivaldi - top digital needs a lot of of high quality power to show its best. But not only large scale classical - as soon as you have a few performers in the stage and percussion, digital needs power.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, jump in your chariot and bring me the LL1.1. then we will see.

Sorry, if I manage to get one, it will have to spend some time with the M1.2 Ref's in my system first thing ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry, if I manage to get one, it will have to spend some time with the M1.2 Ref's in my system first thing ...

of course.

if an LL1.1 lands on my doorstep, I will gladly insert it and report.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You are referring to a point that has been haunting me since I got the Metronome's, and now particularly with the Vivaldi - top digital needs a lot of of high quality power to show its best. But not only large scale classical - as soon as you have a few performers in the stage and percussion, digital needs power.

there is no replacement for displacement. resembling real large scale life needs headroom. with the darts I have unlimited headroom for musical purposes with my speakers. so large scale music of any kind is simply effortless. a quality that must be experienced to be appreciated.

and this morning I do appreciate it.

 

[LL21]

there is no replacement for displacement. resembling real large scale life needs headroom. with the darts I have unlimited headroom for musical purposes with my speakers. so large scale music of any kind is simply effortless. a quality that must be experienced to be appreciated.

and this morning I do appreciate it.

Continuing to read your comments with great fascination, Mike. Yes, in my own more limited experience, greatly enhanced dynamic capability/effortlessness was a real lesson in what i look for in a system...and where it can come from. I had not appreciated this (even with SF Strads) until the big Wilsons, and since then have heard the big Genesis 1s and the Arrakis which are yet a different level again.

It [can be] both macro dynamics of course...but also microdynamics i suspect not just due to noise floor, etc...but also because the system is more able to handle the large scale dynamic shifts while maintaining utter control to be able to maintain the small nuances at the same time. Effortless.

It makes a huge difference, and for me, like great all-out bass...it is incredibly hard to go back once you've got it.

Thanks for taking the time to share your adventures with all of us! Great reading!!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Continuing to read your comments with great fascination, Mike. Yes, in my own more limited experience, greatly enhanced dynamic capability/effortlessness was a real lesson in what i look for in a system...and where it can come from. I had not appreciated this (even with SF Strads) until the big Wilsons, and since then have heard the big Genesis 1s and the Arrakis which are yet a different level again.

It [can be] both macro dynamics of course...but also microdynamics i suspect not just due to noise floor, etc...but also because the system is more able to handle the large scale dynamic shifts while maintaining utter control to be able to maintain the small nuances at the same time. Effortless.

It makes a huge difference, and for me, like great all-out bass...it is incredibly hard to go back once you've got it.

Thanks for taking the time to share your adventures with all of us! Great reading!!!

thanks Lloyd.

this experience does challenge my thinking. as I sit here listening to a marvelous dsd64 file of Fritz Reiner's 'Vienna' in all it's majesty and sweep, how could I 'settle' for the more focused but limited musical view of the ML3's? but.......I recall thinking the same way 2 weeks ago when I was first listening to Ella with the ML3's; how can I go back?

fascinating.

I want 100% of both. I guess i'm stuck.

 

[RogerD]

there is no replacement for displacement. resembling real large scale life needs headroom. with the darts I have unlimited headroom for musical purposes with my speakers. so large scale music of any kind is simply effortless. a quality that must be experienced to be appreciated.

and this morning I do appreciate it.

Amen amen, a well that can not run dry is intoxicatingly beautiful.

 

[microstrip]

thanks Lloyd.

this experience does challenge my thinking. as I sit here listening to a marvelous dsd64 file of Fritz Reiner's 'Vienna' in all it's majesty and sweep, how could I 'settle' for the more focused but limited musical view of the ML3's? but.......I recall thinking the same way 2 weeks ago when I was first listening to Ella with the ML3's; how can I go back?

fascinating.

I want 100% of both. I guess i'm stuck.

Probably you are ... Can we know what were the peak levels you were listening and the typical level displayed in the Dartzeel preamplfier you were using?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Probably you are ... Can we know what were the peak levels you were listening and the typical level displayed in the Dartzeel preamplfier you were using?

at a maximum swell of the 'Blue Danube'; -0- continuous watts, -4- watt peaks.....maybe I saw 5 or 6 watt peaks at the crescendo. but what was going on millisecond to millisecond is another matter. the well never ran dry or even was less than full.

the sense of space and control is quite something. the ML3's would have 'relatively' collapsed and could not have kept up the illusion of effortlessness. it's about unencumbered note expansiveness.

on a 97db, 7 ohm speaker not needing to power below 40 hz, most very high peaks come from drum whacks, or maybe material like Santana's 'Jingo'......huge drums or such things or a particularly hot horn. some classical does go there, but not generally. but relating unlimited space (and the ambient air bed in a large space) and authority does require power. and there is a considerable difference between how the dart 108's and the 458's do space, scale and authority. on the MM7's the 108's never noticeably ran out of power, but the musical consequences of the additional power from the 458's was considerable. I did not listen to 50% digital classical music with the 108's. it was in a different league.

ok, just saw a 9 watt peak and 2 watts continuous.

 

[morricab]

You are referring to a point that has been haunting me since I got the Metronome's, and now particularly with the Vivaldi - top digital needs a lot of of high quality power to show its best. But not only large scale classical - as soon as you have a few performers in the stage and percussion, digital needs power.

Digital needs power? This makes no sense...

 

[morricab]

thanks Lloyd.

this experience does challenge my thinking. as I sit here listening to a marvelous dsd64 file of Fritz Reiner's 'Vienna' in all it's majesty and sweep, how could I 'settle' for the more focused but limited musical view of the ML3's? but.......I recall thinking the same way 2 weeks ago when I was first listening to Ella with the ML3's; how can I go back?

fascinating.

I want 100% of both. I guess i'm stuck.

Time to look for something that can bridge the divide??

 

[LL21]

thanks Lloyd.

this experience does challenge my thinking. as I sit here listening to a marvelous dsd64 file of Fritz Reiner's 'Vienna' in all it's majesty and sweep, how could I 'settle' for the more focused but limited musical view of the ML3's? but.......I recall thinking the same way 2 weeks ago when I was first listening to Ella with the ML3's; how can I go back?

fascinating.

I want 100% of both. I guess i'm stuck.

I totally get that...you have fought hard and worked long to get an all out system, and that pursuit never ends. It what makes your system so remarkable today.

As for wanting 100% of both, I kinda was reading that into your earlier comments...hence why i joked it would great if there were a way to use 2 sets of ML3s with your speakers...if only that were possible.

 

[morricab]

at a maximum swell of the 'Blue Danube'; -0- continuous watts, -4- watt peaks.....maybe I saw 5 or 6 watt peaks at the crescendo. but what was going on millisecond to millisecond is another matter. the well never ran dry or even was less than full.

the sense of space and control is quite something. the ML3's would have 'relatively' collapsed and could not have kept up the illusion of effortlessness. it's about unencumbered note expansiveness.

on a 97db, 7 ohm speaker not needing to power below 40 hz, most very high peaks come from drum whacks, or maybe material like Santana's 'Jingo'......huge drums or such things or a particularly hot horn. some classical does go there, but not generally. but relating unlimited space (and the ambient air bed in a large space) and authority does require power. and there is a considerable difference between how the dart 108's and the 458's do space, scale and authority. on the MM7's the 108's never noticeably ran out of power, but the musical consequences of the additional power from the 458's was considerable. I did not listen to 50% digital classical music with the 108's. it was in a different league.

ok, just saw a 9 watt peak and 2 watts continuous.

Does darTZeel give any specification on the accuracy of the front panel meters? McIntosh claims 80% of peak with their ballistic needles at rate power. Just wondering if we need to multiply by factor of 2 or more for the true peak power?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Time to look for something that can bridge the divide??

compromise both?

never.

 

[morricab]

compromise both?

never.

That is not what I meant...what if there was an amp with the beauty of the Lamms with the seemingly endless reserve of the Darts?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Does darTZeel give any specification on the accuracy of the front panel meters? McIntosh claims 80% of peak with their ballistic needles at rate power. Just wondering if we need to multiply by factor of 2 or more for the true peak power?

my understanding is that they are quite accurate, based on talking to Herve'. last June I was with Herve' at the L.A. Show after hours when he got 1200 watt peaks on the 458's with the new mid-80's efficiency Evolution Acoustics prototype speakers. it was very interesting. you could email and ask him.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That is not what I meant...what if there was an amp with the beauty of the Lamms with the seemingly endless reserve of the Darts?

a unicorn?

I will keep my ears open for when I hear one. I've not heard anything else that does what either of my amps do best, let alone do what both do best.

not interested in an amplifier needing a 105 db or 110 db horn. i'd rather own these 2 amps and know I have what I want, rather than try to find it in a horn. not that a horn does not have a huge upside.

I love what my whole system does in it's current configuration. it's what I want.....but it's not for everyone.

 

[BMCG]

Time to look for something that can bridge the divide??

I wonder if such is possible...what amplifier suggestions might we make (???...)

Frankly...Mike just grab a beverage...sit back and enjoy....

If you must make a choice...toss a coin every now and then...heads the Darts ...tails the Lamms.