ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Ron Resnick]

From the beginning it was clear to me and Peter, for two, that Mike was not asking anyone any question on this thread. Completely unsolicitedly a lot of people proceeded to make up their own questions to which they then posted their own answers/solutions.

The “answers/solutions” provided by many posters are to questions Mike never asked and, therefore, are inapposite.

Mike never suggested he was trying to choose between the ML3s and the 458s.

Mike never suggested he expected the ML3s to sound better than the 458s on the complex types of music on which the 458s excel. I think Mike was very clear that he was interested in enjoying the ML3s on (and only on) those particular types of music on which he feels the ML3s are more involving than the 458s.

The posts which suggest Mike is unsatisfied with the ML3s, measured against his original stated objective in acquiring the ML3s, in my opinion, misinterpret Mike’s comments. (Sorry Audiocrack and Jeff T ) I interpret Mike’s posts to the effect that he is completely satisfied with the ML3s on the music for which he enjoys them -- meaning on the music for which they do what he wants them to do.

Finally, my personal opinion on the Lamm preamp question is that it cannot be answered theoretically; that it cannot be answered solely on the basis of presumed synergy.

 

[Audiocrack]

From the beginning it was clear to me and Peter, for two, that Mike was not asking anyone any question on this thread. Completely unsolicitedly a lot of people proceeded to make up their own questions to which they then posted their own answers/solutions.

The “answers/solutions” provided by many posters are to questions Mike never asked and, therefore, are inapposite.

Mike never suggested he was trying to choose between the ML3s and the 458s.

Mike never suggested he expected the ML3s to sound better than the 458s on the complex types of music on which the 458s excel. I think Mike was very clear that he was interested in enjoying the ML3s on (and only on) those particular types of music on which he feels the ML3s are more involving than the 458s.

The posts which suggest Mike is unsatisfied with the ML3s, measured against his original stated objective in acquiring the ML3s, in my opinion, misinterpret Mike’s comments. (Sorry Audiocrack and Jeff T ) I interpret Mike’s posts to the effect that he is completely satisfied with the ML3s on the music for which he enjoys them -- meaning on the music for which they do what he wants them to do.

Finally, my personal opinion on the Lamm preamp question is that it cannot be answered theoretically; that it cannot be answered solely on the basis of presumed synergy.

I appreciate your role as ‘gallant knight’ coming to ‘Mike’s rescue’, Ron. Furhermore this is (also) my last contribution to this thread.

As mentioned before I asked Mike in the (very) beginning of this thread if he was planning to use the 32 watts set Lamm amps only with certain types of music. He did not reply to this question; so apparently we disagree on the point of his (clear) intentions in this regard, Ron.

Apparently quite a few of our members were (unplesantly?) surprised with his Lamm ‘power’ experiences. I was not due to Mike’s previous experiences with a twice as powerful and high quality tube amp in his own set up. Obviously for this reason I raised the afore mentioned question.

Furthermore I mentioned that he has not yet discovered the real ‘command/power qualities’ of the set Lamms. He will if he would combine them with the Tripoint Elite ‘ground station’ (which he is currently employing in combination with his front ends) and add top notch (and I mean: really top notch) ground cables. No, the set amps will still not sound as commanding as really strong ss amps but I am sure he will be quite amazed and pleasantly susprised notwithstanding. But I fully understand such a statement is hard to swallow for audiophiles who have their doubts about - and have not (yet) experienced - high quality grounding.

And if you allow me, I am now going back to my 50 watts set amps that generate - in combination with my pretty efficient (cones / non horn) loudspeakers and various Tripoint components - in my view, that of my various audio buddies and quite a number of visitors more than enough power to sound (very) dynamic, powerful and commanding with even the most challenging classical music.

 

[KeithR]

Mike never suggested he was trying to choose between the ML3s and the 458s.

that may not have been the original intention, but its natural to occur. and i think if the Lamms easily supplanted the Darts, Mike would have been happy to sell the latter. clearly, they have not.

i also find it hard to stomach a 60k set of backup amps but who knows.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

that may not have been the original intention, but its natural to occur. and i think if the Lamms easily supplanted the Darts, Mike would have been happy to sell the latter. clearly, they have not.

i also find it hard to stomach a 60k set of backup amps but who knows.

what's the difference between multiple tt's, arms and cartridges....or even systems.......and multiple amps? are those other 'choices' easier to 'stomach'?

and 'backup' is likely not the right way to view the ML3's. it's exactly having multiple alternative musical viewpoints. there is nothing 'backup' about them.

I 'get' the hangup on the dollars involved. but it's interesting how we tend to pick and choose when we view dollar investment as an issue. and i'm not singling you out here Keith. it's typical that that thinking is applied haphazardly.......based on multifaceted feelings.

it's like you can do that.....and that.....and even that.......but don't do that.

 

[gian60]

On my vintage system with Quad corner ribbon I have Radford sta 15,tube amp with Mullard tube,and First Watt M2,25 watt pure class A
Both sound great but different and I listen both with different kind of music and I enjoy and love them

 

[KeithR]

what's the difference between multiple tt's, arms and cartridges....or even systems.......and multiple amps? are those other 'choices' easier to 'stomach'?

Because these are SOTA in-production amps that list for $150k. I think at that price point I should have it all - feel free to disagree.

If you want different flavor, pick up some 60s Mcintosh amps - or a 2 watt SET. But you didn't - you chose one of the most expensive amplifiers in the world for a reason, Mike.

But it has been really fun reading about your journey...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Because these are SOTA in-production amps that list for $150k. I think at that price point I should have it all - feel free to disagree.

If you want different flavor, pick up some 60s Mcintosh amps - or a 2 watt SET. But you didn't - you chose one of the most expensive amplifiers in the world for a reason, Mike.

But it has been really fun reading about your journey...

interesting. I choose the only tube amp that floats my boat enough to pursue, and wait until it makes sense for me to do it. it does what I expected it to do. and it does not do what I expected it not to do. others have their own templates to judge. they are not me.

it's cheaper than many multiple turntable, arm and cartridge collections that have their own multiple characters and non-linearity's, and second systems for sure, or even rack systems we see....yet....you can't 'stomach' it.

am I surprised? of course not. logic has nothing to do with this. it just does not sit well with you........and I appreciate your honestly.....sincerely.

 

[JackD201]

what's the difference between multiple tt's, arms and cartridges....or even systems.......and multiple amps? are those other 'choices' easier to 'stomach'?

and 'backup' is likely not the right way to view the ML3's. it's exactly having multiple alternative musical viewpoints. there is nothing 'backup' about them.

I 'get' the hangup on the dollars involved. but it's interesting how we tend to pick and choose when we view dollar investment as an issue. and i'm not singling you out here Keith. it's typical that that thinking is applied haphazardly.......based on multifaceted feelings.

it's like you can do that.....and that.....and even that.......but don't do that.

Not to mention that as far as multiple carts and arms go, it is very easy to hit 60k. That's without the tables!

 

[microstrip]

what's the difference between multiple tt's, arms and cartridges....or even systems.......and multiple amps? are those other 'choices' easier to 'stomach'? (...)

IMHO there is essentially no difference, although logistics and costs are very different for each hypothesis. And independently of preference or wallet size, all our opinions are always linked to the apparent value for money of the option being debated. This aspect is a permanent shadow over our debates.

Perhaps also what causes discussion is our sense of "audiophile" justice and fair play. Several of us feel that the Lamm's are not being given a "fair" chance of showing its best in your system, or/and feel uneasy with the idea of pairing a DartZeel preamplfier with the Lamm amplifier.

Anyway I am waiting for your opinion about driving the Lamm directly with the MSB. I think we could learn a lot from it.

 

[PeterA]

Mike, have you spent much time yet listening to the VAC amps? How do they sound compared to the other two?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO there is essentially no difference, although logistics and costs are very different for each hypothesis. And independently of preference or wallet size, all our opinions are always linked to the apparent value for money of the option being debated. This aspect is a permanent shadow over our debates.

Perhaps also what causes discussion is our sense of "audiophile" justice and fair play. Several of us feel that the Lamm's are not being given a "fair" chance of showing its best in your system, or/and feel uneasy with the idea of pairing a DartZeel preamplfier with the Lamm amplifier.

I don't recall any issue when Fremer used the previous dart pre with the ML3's for their very positive review. or when Fremer used the dart pre with the Ypsilon Hyperion in this month's Stereophile for it's very positive review. will a different preamp add 200 watts to the output? will it be even any better at all, or maybe just a little different? we could take bets I suppose on what that actual outcome would be.

sigh..............double sigh.

while I know you are simply trying to rationalize the angst of this issue, it is so much baloney. a bit of grasping at straws looking for traction to marginalize my feedback. missing the proper grounding cables? and that is going to close the gap with my darts on big music?

sorry if i'm getting a little pissy here.......I've really tried hard to keep my reactions dispassionate. and I don't view any of these various comments as personal toward me, it's just business as usual on an audio forum.

I do think Keith's point (which I do appreciate him honestly posting) about me deciding to buy such an expensive second amplifier being somehow sinister and not pure and righteous as maybe what is going on here. maybe my purchase is perceived as too over-the-top.......and so it's harder for people to take my intensions at face value. so be it. everyone has to process things their own self. why would I not want to acquire the best possible sounding tube amp I've heard if I was comfortable with what it would be able to do in my system? and I already had another amp that was optimal on everything else? what is wrong with that? I will add that one factor in purchasing the Lamm ML3 Signature's was that I felt they would be fairly easy to re-sell without losing money......I had an end game strategy in mind that I was comfortable with. i'd rather pay more for something easy to turn, than a good deal on a less expensive hard to turn product. maybe that helps for people to understand my thinking. I had no idea how long I would want to keep these.

i'm sure there is some sort of 'group-think' principle involved here that a sociologist or spin doctor can explain to us.

Anyway I am waiting for your opinion about driving the Lamm directly with the MSB. I think we could learn a lot from it.

one of these mornings I will do that. when everything is powered down a simple switch of RCA inputs. I just have to remember to do it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, have you spent much time yet listening to the VAC amps? How do they sound compared to the other two?

I only listened to the VAC late last Friday night and Saturday until late afternoon, then when jazdoc visited we switched to the Lamm's, then Sunday morning I traveled to South Carolina then back late Wed nite. too tired last night to switch amps, and the same tonight.....listening to the Lamm's. maybe tomorrow i'll switch back to the VAC's. back a few pages you can read my first impressions......'big tubes'......I liked it a lot but would say I've not had a chance to live with it enough to really take the measure of it yet. no doubt it's a high quality amplifier and worthy of the positive reputation.

I don't have much more to add at this point. been a long week.

 

[Al M.]

sigh..............double sigh.

while I know you are simply trying to rationalize the angst of this issue, it is so much baloney. a bit of grasping at straws looking for traction to marginalize my feedback. missing the proper grounding cables? and that is going to close the gap with my darts on big music?

sorry if i'm getting a little pissy here.......I've really tried hard to keep my reactions dispassionate. and I don't view any of these various comments as personal toward me, it's just business as usual on an audio forum.

I totally understand your frustration, Mike. You bought a great amp in the knowledge that in your system and room it might not play perfectly on all music. So what? A certain number of watts only gets you so far, but you wanted to experience the best what in your view tube amplification has to offer. What's wrong with that?

I personally would not have gone that route. But then, many would also not go the route that I have taken with my own system. We both made conscious choices, very personal ones, and we are happy with them. Why can't people just acknowledge the fact that all high-end is very personal, and that there simply is not THE optimal solution that fits everyone? And that everybody needs to be happy in their own way?

 

[ALF]

I don't recall any issue when Fremer used the previous dart pre with the ML3's for their very positive review. or when Fremer used the dart pre with the Ypsilon Hyperion in this month's Stereophile for it's very positive review. will a different preamp add 200 watts to the output? will it be even any better at all, or maybe just a little different? we could take bets I suppose on what that actual outcome would be.

sigh..............double sigh.

while I know you are simply trying to rationalize the angst of this issue, it is so much baloney. a bit of grasping at straws looking for traction to marginalize my feedback. missing the proper grounding cables? and that is going to close the gap with my darts on big music?

sorry if i'm getting a little pissy here.......I've really tried hard to keep my reactions dispassionate. and I don't view any of these various comments as personal toward me, it's just business as usual on an audio forum.

I do think Keith's point (which I do appreciate him honestly posting) about me deciding to buy such an expensive second amplifier being somehow sinister and not pure and righteous as maybe what is going on here. maybe my purchase is perceived as too over-the-top.......and so it's harder for people to take my intensions at face value. so be it. everyone has to process things their own self. why would I not want to acquire the best possible sounding tube amp I've heard if I was comfortable with what it would be able to do in my system? and I already had another amp that was optimal on everything else? what is wrong with that? I will add that one factor in purchasing the Lamm ML3 Signature's was that I felt they would be fairly easy to re-sell without losing money......I had an end game strategy in mind that I was comfortable with. i'd rather pay more for something easy to turn, than a good deal on a less expensive hard to turn product. maybe that helps for people to understand my thinking. I had no idea how long I would want to keep these.

i'm sure there is some sort of 'group-think' principle involved here that a sociologist or spin doctor can explain to us.



one of these mornings I will do that. when everything is powered down a simple switch of RCA inputs. I just have to remember to do it.

Sigh, sigh, sigh...

I been away for awhile; however, there still seems to be a lack of understanding that loudness is measured in dBs. The Lamm LL1.1 preamplifier has 12 dB more gain than the Mike’s Dart preamplifier, which is okay for the design of Dart amplifiers...loudness doubles every 6dB; so twice as loud at a 6dB increase, and so forth.

The two Mikes, F and L, seem to be capacity constrained and happy with that state. I guess that is okay and maybe even understandable.

Cheers!
ALF

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

The Lamm LL1.1 preamplifier has 18 dB more gain than the Dart preamplifier,

Of all the 1274 posts here this to me is about the only thing that makes sense to getting more out of the Lamms.
The rest conjecture and speculation.

 

[Audiocrack]

My reply yesterday should have been the latest in this thread but the next quote from Mike begs for a reaction:

sigh..............double sigh.

while I know you are simply trying to rationalize the angst of this issue, it is so much baloney. a bit of grasping at straws looking for traction to marginalize my feedback. missing the proper grounding cables? and that is going to close the gap with my darts on big music?

sorry if i'm getting a little pissy here.......I've really tried hard to keep my reactions dispassionate. and I don't view any of these various comments as personal toward me, it's just business as usual on an audio forum.

- For the second time your are implying that the following has been claimed (by me?): adding the “proper grounding cables” is going to close the gap with your darts on demanding music. That is not correct. Reading my various statements in this regard carefully will show (you) without any doubt that such a statement was never made (by me).
- Apart from Miguel only two persons on this planet have actually heard and played with his new (and groundbreaking) ground cable in their own systems. And I am the only one who combines these new ground cables with a pair of set amps and therefore know what they are doing with sets. I consider you an open minded audiophile who is always on the look out to raise the level of your audio system, so why not in this instance?
- I love set amps and have been playing with them for many years now. Furthermore I own two (‘full blown’) audio systems, (can you believe it) four turntables, six cartridges, etc. so of all people I am the one who fully understands your desire to try out or add some additional ‘stuff’ such as high quality set amps to your system. But sets have (of course) their (power) restrictions and - as with all audio equipment - need to be maximised within these restrictions.
- As far as I know you have not grounded your amps with the Elite. Why not try this out (as well) and by doing so maximise the performance of your set amps? Adding a top notch ground cable will show you how far you can raise the level of your sets in many ways (including the ‘power issue’).
- In my view no need at all to get “a little pissy” or use words like “baloney”.
- Lastly, my comments are indeed not personal at all towards you (and I hope/expect the same applies to you) but this forum is a place to share our views / experiences, also if they might contradict other persons views / expectations / preconceptions. That is exactly what I did and that is what a forum is for or should be for.

 

[BruceD]

Ahh indeed--Maybe time for some "Silence of the Lamms" !


BD

 

[Ron Resnick]

“Groupthink” refers to a psychological dynamic by which a desire to achieve uniformity of opinion results in a flawed decision-making process. This often happens as the result of a charismatic leader who persuades or pressures people to his point of view.

I don’t see it as applicable to this situation.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sigh, sigh, sigh...

I been away for awhile; however, there still seems to be a lack of understanding that loudness is measured in dBs. The Lamm LL1.1 preamplifier has 12 dB more gain than the Mike’s Dart preamplifier, which is okay for the design of Dart amplifiers...loudness doubles every 6dB; so twice as loud at a 6dB increase, and so forth.

The two Mikes, F and L, seem to be capacity constrained and happy with that state. I guess that is okay and maybe even understandable.

Cheers!
ALF

ALF,

I understand how loudness is measured, but i'm admittedly ignorant on preamp specs.....and all manufacturers hifi specs are not created equal. please detail where you come up with your 12db difference in loudness between these two preamps if you could. i'm not doubting it, but it's not the information that I see when I look......but then i'm not sure what to look at. or how you can exactly rationalize specs between manufacturers.

what I see is 12db of attenuation for the LL1.1 and 11db of attenuation for the 18NS. but again; i'm not at all confident i'm looking at the right things.

and then it is also a question whether the ML3's can benefit from greater gain or whether they run out of driving ability first with my speakers. it seems like this is a 32 watt SET <-> speaker sensitivity issue, not a preamp attenuation issue.

and to be clear; on small scale music there is no dynamic limits to the ML3's on my speakers in any way. I get all the gain I can possibly use, and soundstage is fine, if not quite as large as the darts would do.. it's only on large scale music where the limits of scale and authority are finite. the soundstage is limited in a way my darts are not limited (or the VAC's either for that matter).

the ML3's play orchestral music just fine; I listened mostly to that music last night and tonight. only that there are limits to the larger scale parts of that music compared to what I am use to hearing.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok Mike, let me ask you to look thru the telescope in reverse.
I get that you find high energy orchestral etc leads to the Lamms running out of steam occasionally.
So, on music that perfectly suits the Lamms, maybe female vocal, or string quartet, acoustic guitar etc, even w this music do you listen and still feel the Darts do things better? Or in these cases are the Lamms wholly superior?