ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Alpinist]

Hi Mike,

Congrats on your Lamm monoblocks. I hope you are enjoying them and I totally understand the yin and yang of the SET Lamm and the Dart. Is there a way that you could more quickly switch connections between the Lamm and the Dart without having to physically reconnect the speaker cables?

Also, switching gears a little, whatever happened to the Dart 468 monoblocks? Were they ever released?

Best,
Ken

 

[microstrip]

I’m sorry but so many posts on this thread make me feel like people are reading like Mike is writing in Portuguese. I don’t understand your comment. It is unambiguous to me from reading Mike’s posts here that he still loves his 458s.

I can assure you he is not writing in Portuguese ...

But we can not discard the possibility that Mike sells the NHB 458 ... to get the upcoming NHB 468! Although it was possible to get an upgrade, some local owners were so anxious to get the NHB 18 mk2 that they immediately bought the new preamplfier, giving the old one in part-exchange.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

Congrats on your Lamm monoblocks. I hope you are enjoying them and I totally understand the yin and yang of the SET Lamm and the Dart. Is there a way that you could more quickly switch connections between the Lamm and the Dart without having to physically reconnect the speaker cables?

Also, switching gears a little, whatever happened to the Dart 468 monoblocks? Were they ever released?

Best,
Ken

hi Ken,

thanks.

quick switching is not really practical, with warm up issues considered. it takes about 10-15 minutes to switch cables considering all the things that need to be carefully done, as well as the 'twister' contortions I have to put my 66 year old body through to do it with all the amp chassis in the way and various cables on the floor. but once the physical switching is done it's about another 45 minutes before a level of optimization is reached. no way to retain performance with any speaker cable switch-box mechanism involved.

the 468's are still coming, and maybe some have been delivered although I've not personally heard about it. not yet heard exactly when the 458 --> 468 upgrade will happen. it was 6 months after the first Mark II dart pre's were delivered before any upgrades were done.

Maybe you can go home with some NHB-458s for cheap!

the dart 458's are the base line for my system. my opinion is that they bring an unencumbered 'just music' purity to the music and in my system are not limited dynamically or at frequency extremes in any way. I will wait for the upgrade to '468' level when it happens, but am not unduly anxious about it as the 458 performance is all there to my ears. talking to Herve' about it, I am confident that upgrade will be a step up in musical involvement organically and look forward to enjoying that.

OTOH obviously I appreciate the alternate viewpoint of tubes in general, and the ML3's in particular, enough to commit to having that too.

it's fair for others to predict outcomes in the future. i'm living in the moment and enjoying that. I don't see any circumstances of the dart's leaving.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I can assure you he is not writing in Portuguese ...

But we can not discard the possibility that Mike sells the NHB 458 ... to get the upcoming NHB 468! Although it was possible to get an upgrade, some local owners were so anxious to get the NHB 18 mk2 that they immediately bought the new preamplfier, giving the old one in part-exchange.

while it's possible some 458 owners might sell theirs and get the 468's when they are first introduced, the realities of the much higher price of the 458's and 468's compared to the dart pre's would make that unlikely for normal people. I can tell you it never even crossed my mind once to do that. that is just my view. but maybe that is happening as most 458 owners don't post on forums and are unknown to me. I suppose we can watch to see if any/some 458's get offered for sale.

 

[caesar]

Hi Mike,

I hope you are enjoying yourself. Can you please contrast the sound of the Lamm with the sound of the Berning? Broad brushstrokes are fine.

Thank you

P.S. I apologize in advance if this is already somewhere in this thread

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

I hope you are enjoying yourself. Can you please contrast the sound of the Lamm with the sound of the Berning? Broad brushstrokes are fine.

Thank you

P.S. I apologize in advance if this is already somewhere in this thread

it's now been 4 years since I had the Berning 211/845's in my room for a weekend spin. they did make a very positive impression at that time, and I remain a big fan of these amps. considering forward steps of my overall system performance since then, my mind can rationalize a few various twists and turns which might change my objective recollections. but I would be splitting hairs and maybe reaching to read too much into system changes needing to be factored.

so going for my gut perspective; I would say that the 32 SET watts of the Lamm ML3 likely bring more meat on the bones and for whatever reason seem to bring an authority and energy to the bass which is a few levels beyond my recollection of the 60 OTL watts of the Berning. OTOH 2 years ago I solved a 12 db in room suckout at 28-32 hz which might be a significant factor in my perceptions of the Berning back then.....or not. i'd say that the holographic abilities of both amps are similar. likely the ML3's can keep the dynamic and scale thing going just a bit better on large music than the Berning's. and maybe the Bernings might be a bit quieter.....blacker backgrounds. the ML3's are very quiet, just not quite as quiet as my recollection of the Berning's.

and maybe the Bernings are not as focused and maybe fill out the soundstage a bit more. i'd lean toward the ML3's for vocals and degrees of spooky 'they are here', but the Berning's excelled there too.

another way to put it would be that the in terms of character; the Bernings are closer to the dart 458's......maybe a third of the way toward the darts (from the ML3's) in terms of tonality and the space-focus balance, the Berning's are more open on top. they have less of their own character......they do less enhancing....and are less beguiling than the ML3's. this is a matter of degrees, not a night and day issue.

maybe on a 105-110 db horn, the lower noise floor of the Bernings might have advantages. in my system, owning the darts already, the ML3's scratch my itch perfectly......but the Bernings do play in this ballpark too. and whereas I do think in some systems (not mine) Lamm amps can sound slightly dark, the Berning is open and neutrally lit and so maybe fits more predictably with a tube front end. the Berning will not darken your view. at least with the tubes I used. and lastly; the Berning is an OTL and so needs proper speaker matching more than the ML3's.

as I recall, I only listened to the 211 tubes on the Bernings, not the 845.....for whatever that is worth (and I could have that backwards...too).

 

[morricab]

I have been looking forward for a couple of years to taking Mike up on his very kind invitation to visit, and that visit is finally scheduled to take place. It is fortuitous that Mike has not one but two tube amplifiers presently in-house, each representing a different topology and philosophy. It is also a twist that while I have enjoyed high-power, push-pull tube amplifiers my whole life I am now considering (lower power than 350 wpc in VTL triode mode, but high-power for SET) SET amplifiers.

Please write your questions on my Introduction and Listening Biases thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19261-Introduction-and-Listening-Biases/page11 and I will be delighted to answer!

PS: Keep in mind that I am most accustomed to playing for comparison purposes tracks which Kedar says sound good on almost every system (i.e., simple vocals, jazz, pop). But I did purchase for this visit another copy of one of my Chesky LPs I have several copies of from many years ago -- Night on Bald Mountain and Pictures at an Exhibition.

If it is a really good recording then the pieces by Mussorgsky are fantastic demo pieces. I have a really wonderful version (on cd) conducted by Gergiev that has awesome clarity and dynamic range...the horns!!!

 

[nonesup]

Thanks for the recommendation.
I did not know this version of Gergiev, but I found it in Tidal and I really like it a lot

 

[rockitman]

To get this conversation out of the AF1 thread....

are you speaking of the Classic 33, or the early 4 disc Classic 45rpm of the Gounod?

if the original is equal to the 45 4-disc i'd sure love to hear that.

After comparing the 45 with 1s.... There is no comparison, 45 wins big-time. I had forgotten how good it sounds along with the Olympic level sonic gymnastics it represents.

 

[LL21]

If it is a really good recording then the pieces by Mussorgsky are fantastic demo pieces. I have a really wonderful version (on cd) conducted by Gergiev that has awesome clarity and dynamic range...the horns!!!

My favorite of about at least 6 versions of Pictures at an Exhibition is Tugan Sokhiev. And its also fantastically well recorded!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think the Chesky reissue is well-regarded.

 

[LL21]

I think the Chesky reissue is well-regarded.

Is that the RPO Kingsway Hall with Leibowitz? The Vinyl says Chesky...but the original label is Sony (RCA)? I think Chesky did a re-pressing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes -- exactly.

 

[LL21]

I think the Chesky reissue is well-regarded.

Is that the RPO Kingsway Hall with Leibowitz? The Vinyl says Chesky...but the original label is Sony (RCA)? I think Chesky did a re-pressing.

This one? Chesky - Power of Orchestra


I have the Analogue Productions Remaster which I think is the same performance. (I like it...1 of about 6 I think i own...but i prefer Sokhiev if you are at all interested).

 

[bonzo75]

The RPO one is pretty poor imo compared to Reiner CSO.

I have not heard the Cheaky reissue but heard the other one Lloyd posted, on vinyl.

The 45 rpm classic reissue should be the one to go for.

 

[gian60]

I have Chesky and is good but also this old digital Telarc of 1979 is very very impressive

 

[bonzo75]

Gian, I will get my 45 rpm Reiner CSO from Classic records there once and we can compare.

Btw, Byron Janis' brilliant piano version of Pictures is also available on 45 rpm Speakers Corner reissue of Mercury. Haven't heard the vinyl but do own.

 

[gian60]

And also you will listen this master copy tape
SORRY FOR OT

 

[morricab]

Thanks for the recommendation.
I did not know this version of Gergiev, but I found it in Tidal and I really like it a lot

You're welcome. I bought it after hearing a live performance at Tonhalle in Zurich that was the same orchestra and conductor as the recording. The label, Marrinsky, is associated with LSO I read. It is better than other versions I have.

 

[LL21]

Gian, I will get my 45 rpm Reiner CSO from Classic records there once and we can compare.

Btw, Byron Janis' brilliant piano version of Pictures is also available on 45 rpm Speakers Corner reissue of Mercury. Haven't heard the vinyl but do own.

Would be interested to hear what you think of Tugan Sokhiev.