ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[Mike Lavigne]

Ok Mike, let me ask you to look thru the telescope in reverse.
I get that you find high energy orchestral etc leads to the Lamms running out of steam occasionally.
So, on music that perfectly suits the Lamms, maybe female vocal, or string quartet, acoustic guitar etc, even w this music do you listen and still feel the Darts do things better? Or in these cases are the Lamms wholly superior?

these two amps are both wonderful, and do their own thing perfectly. I can just say how I view this.

the Lamm's special focus and flair with intimate music is unique in my experience. would I call it better? yes. wholly superior than the darts on intimate music? no......I would not go that far, but jazdoc would for sure. but I would say it's an experience (when I heard it in other systems) that caused me to want to see if it needs to be a long term part of my picture. I fully appreciate what it's doing. I can get my head into that mode easily. my system is fully engaged and lacks nothing when on moderately or less scaled music with the Lamm's. tons of energy projected, plenty of space, great flow.

it's the whole 'they are here' verses 'you are there' question. the ML3's bring that flair and nuance enhancement and texture sexiness to the party, floating and holographic.....slightly better and different than reality and reach out and touch it like presentation. there is a limit to how much the music can expand dynamically.....and on some specific parts of the music it's evident.

the big darts break down the walls and go on forever with breath and width, and the authority and sweep has it's own version of suspension of disbelief. and the music has no top on it dynamically. push it and it keeps going. the individual parts are not editorialized and are less sexy, but more granular information. more stuff. with the darts.....i'm there in the (whatever size) hall. but i also embrace the Lamm (orchestra in a jazz club at certain moments) perspective and fully enjoy it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My reply yesterday should have been the latest in this thread but the next quote from Mike begs for a reaction:



- For the second time your are implying that the following has been claimed (by me?): adding the “proper grounding cables” is going to close the gap with your darts on demanding music. That is not correct. Reading my various statements in this regard carefully will show (you) without any doubt that such a statement was never made (by me).
- Apart from Miguel only two persons on this planet have actually heard and played with his new (and groundbreaking) ground cable in their own systems. And I am the only one who combines these new ground cables with a pair of set amps and therefore know what they are doing with sets. I consider you an open minded audiophile who is always on the look out to raise the level of your audio system, so why not in this instance?
- I love set amps and have been playing with them for many years now. Furthermore I own two (‘full blown’) audio systems, (can you believe it) four turntables, six cartridges, etc. so of all people I am the one who fully understands your desire to try out or add some additional ‘stuff’ such as high quality set amps to your system. But sets have (of course) their (power) restrictions and - as with all audio equipment - need to be maximised within these restrictions.
- As far as I know you have not grounded your amps with the Elite. Why not try this out (as well) and by doing so maximise the performance of your set amps? Adding a top notch ground cable will show you how far you can raise the level of your sets in many ways (including the ‘power issue’).
- In my view no need at all to get “a little pissy” or use words like “baloney”.
- Lastly, my comments are indeed not personal at all towards you (and I hope/expect the same applies to you) but this forum is a place to share our views / experiences, also if they might contradict other persons views / expectations / preconceptions. That is exactly what I did and that is what a forum is for or should be for.

I guess I was feeling a bit picked on and you got caught in my 'cone of frustration'.

I was not discriminating as to degree of invalidation pointed at my perceptions. you know I hold Tripoint products in the highest regard and i know that your new grounding cables are amazing. yet; your feedback on that, was part of the noise of the reasons the ML3's were not doing everything under the sun for me.

and as i said, it's just normal hifi forum stuff, and my reaction is normal hifi forum stuff. as many viewpoints as points on a compass.

 

[Lagonda]

When you bought the Lamm’s you joined a cult, the other SET members will not be happy until you drink the” cool aid” and renounce all other Gods ! Good luck trying to argue with logic!

 

[BMCG]

Bump


How goes the VAC?

 

[XV-1]

Bump


How goes the VAC?

The silence is obvious, the VAC is a poor 3rd out of 3

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Bump


How goes the VAC?

The silence is obvious, the VAC is a poor 3rd out of 3

that's not yet determined. life has intruded in my amplifier investigations.

I was in town for a few days back from South Carolina, life intruded (March Madness College BB tournament here in the USA on TV), and had limited time to listen, then a visitor on Wednesday night who wanted to hear the ML3's. and now since Thursday morning i'm in Las Vegas for a convention back Sunday night. so since 10 days ago not even had a chance to switch away from the ML3's, and at this point I've had one (very promising) limited session (an evening and the next day into early afternoon) with the VAC's. and this coming week Ron Resnick is visiting on Friday and Saturday......so don't know if the VAC's will be on the menu for that, but they very well likely will.

the VAC's are the real deal........and if it ends up third fiddle in this particular group for my particular system and sonic compass.......that still might mean one of the best amps out there. so using the word 'poor' is maybe unfair and the wrong message. 'big tubes' have their spot in the hifi world for a good reason.

stay tuned.

 

[PeterA]

Very understandable Mike. LIfe is about more than just hifi. I know Ron is excited about visiting you. I would be surprised if he is not interested in hearing the VACs in your system. That should be a fun visit and I look forward to reading about the system as time permits.

 

[Pb Blimp]

The silence is obvious, the VAC is a poor 3rd out of 3

Ya I very much doubt it...... I can see the VACs bringing the best of both the other contenders in certain circumstances. This is going to be a very personal thing.

 

[microstrip]

(...) the VAC's are the real deal........and if it ends up third fiddle in this particular group for my particular system and sonic compass.......that still might mean one of the best amps out there. so using the word 'poor' is maybe unfair and the wrong message. 'big tubes' have their spot in the hifi world for a good reason.

stay tuned.

Your evaluation remembers me of the review of three great preamplfiers in Audiobeat http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/vtl_tl75iii.htm - we just have to replace the brands in Roy Gregory concluding words:

"Where does that leave us? All three of these preamps are exceptional performers, but each will find favor with a different listener and quite possibly in different systems. I know that both the Reference 10 and the TL-7.5 III excel in the company of their own amplifiers, and past experiences with C-J suggests that the GAT Series 2 will be no different. All I can report on is their relative virtues in this system; the degree of difference and even those differences themselves may well vary with different partnering equipment, just as they may appear different to a different set of ears -- and that’s the root of the problem."


And yes, big tubes can sound absolutely extraordinary. But you have to drive them with the adequate preamplifier ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And yes, big tubes can sound absolutely extraordinary.

agree.

But you have to drive them with the adequate preamplifier ...

my strong perspective is that my dart pre (and my MM7's too for that matter) is (are) optimal for many amplifiers of different topologies. it is (they are) much more than adequate.

I respect there is a chorus of naysayers lined up with an opposite view. none of them have heard these amps in my system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

I respect there is a chorus of naysayers lined up with an opposite view. none of them have heard these amps in my system.

(bold emphasis added by me)

microstrip, my personal opinion on the Lamm preamp question is that it cannot be answered theoretically; that it cannot be answered solely on the basis of presumed synergy.

One interesting set of data points, promoted by Kedar and Marty among others, is the number of people who find ideal the mixing of a tube pre-amplifier with a solid-state power amplifier, or the mixing of a solid-state preamplifier with a tube power amplifier. In these cases the preamplifiers and the power amplifiers are not from the same manufacturer.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Not to start a fire storm but it is interesting the NHB-18NS measures an output impedance that ranges from 2500 to 3080 ohms depending on frequency compared to the VAC Statements Pre's 150 ohms. Obviously the Dart Pre is one of the best on the planet but impedance matching can be key when discerning the subtle differences at this level. (That said I am not sure of the 450's input impedance.)

From Atkinson:

Turning to the NHB-18NS's line-stage performance, I looked first at the balanced input. The input impedance was an extremely low 640 ohms, while the output impedance was a high 2500 ohms at low and midrange frequencies, rising to 3080 ohms at 20kHz. The input impedance is too low for many source components to give their best performance, the output impedance a little high for some power amplifiers.


Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-18ns-preamplifier-measurements#MEoEmSJeFdxDoM5Q.99

It might be fair to borrow your buddies VAC preamp to feed the VAC's to get a really accurate comparo.

 

[Folsom]

I think Ron visiting will be one of the most interesting events, given that it helps kind of complete a circle of overlapping experience for me, but could still use some information to really understand Ron's descriptions and tastes.

 

[microstrip]

(...) my strong perspective is that my dart pre (and my MM7's too for that matter) is (are) optimal for many amplifiers of different topologies. it is (they are) much more than adequate.

I respect there is a chorus of naysayers lined up with an opposite view. none of them have heard these amps in my system.

I have owned Dartzeel preamplifier twice since its launch, and made many experiences with it, even recently. I always preferred it with the NH108. And technically the DartZeel preamplifier is optimized for the 50 ohm load. I exchanged several emails with Hervé and it was also his feeling. Probably it can sound excellent with other amplifiers in other systems, and you can prefer it.

Although I have listened several times to the current mk2, unfortunately we do not have any reliable technical information on this last version of the preamplfier, in absence of it I can not change my technical opinion.

Again, we are debating preferences. Words such as "best" and "optimal" are extremely subjective.

 

[microstrip]

Not to start a fire storm but it is interesting the NHB-18NS measures an output impedance that ranges from 2500 to 3080 ohms depending on frequency compared to the VAC Statements Pre's 150 ohms. Obviously the Dart Pre is one of the best on the planet but impedance matching can be key when discerning the subtle differences at this level. (That said I am not sure of the 450's input impedance.)

From Atkinson:



It might be fair to borrow your buddies VAC preamp to feed the VAC's to get a really accurate comparo.

Please remember this old data does not refer to Mike current version of the Dartzeel NH18.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Please remember this old data does not refer to Mike current version of the Dartzeel NH18.

Ya and a lot has been improved (particularly in the phono) but I have never seen anything on the output impedance changing. That said if it matches fine no problem.

 

[microstrip]

(bold emphasis added by me)

microstrip, my personal opinion on the Lamm preamp question is that it cannot be answered theoretically; that it cannot be answered solely on the basis of presumed synergy.

One interesting set of data points, promoted by Kedar and Marty among others, is the number of people who find ideal the mixing of a tube pre-amplifier with a solid-state power amplifier, or the mixing of a solid-state preamplifier with a tube power amplifier. In these cases the preamplifiers and the power amplifiers are not from the same manufacturer.

We can have brand synergy mixing tube and SS - I own a powerful conrad johnson SS premier 350 and IMHO the best preamplfier to drive it is by far the GAT2 or the old ACT2 - and I have tried many.

I also own a pair of Lamm M1.2 that I am not currently using. I tried a few preamplfiers with it, and none was able to get the "magic" I get from the matched Audio Research, Conrad Johnson or Constellation Audio preamplifier- amplifier sets - it is my feeling that in order to get the best of these amplifiers in my system I must try them with a Lamm preamplfier, irrespective of being SS or tube - although I think they would sound better with the L1.1 ... But is only presumed synergy as you say

Again, IMHO one of the best aspects of audio forums such as WBF is the respect for YMMV. Mike opened his system to our opinions, we write them, even knowing that many people, including him would not forcefully agree. And on this subject the only data points are from Mike or people who listened to the actual versions of the system being presented.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think Ron visiting will be one of the most interesting events, given that it helps kind of complete a circle of overlapping experience for me, but could still use some information to really understand Ron's descriptions and tastes.

I have been looking forward for a couple of years to taking Mike up on his very kind invitation to visit, and that visit is finally scheduled to take place. It is fortuitous that Mike has not one but two tube amplifiers presently in-house, each representing a different topology and philosophy. It is also a twist that while I have enjoyed high-power, push-pull tube amplifiers my whole life I am now considering (lower power than 350 wpc in VTL triode mode, but high-power for SET) SET amplifiers.

Please write your questions on my Introduction and Listening Biases thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19261-Introduction-and-Listening-Biases/page11 and I will be delighted to answer!

PS: Keep in mind that I am most accustomed to playing for comparison purposes tracks which Kedar says sound good on almost every system (i.e., simple vocals, jazz, pop). But I did purchase for this visit another copy of one of my Chesky LPs I have several copies of from many years ago -- Night on Bald Mountain and Pictures at an Exhibition.

 

[cjfrbw]

Maybe you can go home with some NHB-458s for cheap!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe you can go home with some NHB-458s for cheap!

I’m sorry but so many posts on this thread make me feel like people are reading like Mike is writing in Portuguese. I don’t understand your comment. It is unambiguous to me from reading Mike’s posts here that he still loves his 458s.