ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[andromedaaudio]

Tube power Amps are a bit noisy , at least se ones.
I think pre Amps are the most important thing to get the magic , so maybe the lamm pre drivng the darts Will be the solution.
No noise power and tube magic

 

[ddk]

i'm tired after staying up very late last night listening, and then early this morning too. but; came home tonight and (1) tore my attic apart looking for my 8 meter long generic XLR I.C.'s (Orgami Gold) but could not find it, and (2) moved the ML3 power supplies back near the front wall to see if that lowers the noise (it did a little).

i'll order another set of the inexpensive XLR's to see if it lowers the noise. moving my RCA's around seems to lower the noise a little, so that likely is most of the issue. but it's not intruding on the music. still; it bugs me.

here is a couple of pics of the ML3's fired up, with the power supplies in their new spots.

What kind of noise are we talking about here Mike, I have the same amps on 105db horns and their dead quiet. There's no tube rush with the ML3s do you have a ground loop?

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

May be he means a bit of Transformer hum as he was placng the power supply further to the back

 

[ALF]

i'm tired after staying up very late last night listening, and then early this morning too. but; came home tonight and (1) tore my attic apart looking for my 8 meter long generic XLR I.C.'s (Orgami Gold) but could not find it, and (2) moved the ML3 power supplies back near the front wall to see if that lowers the noise (it did a little).

i'll order another set of the inexpensive XLR's to see if it lowers the noise. moving my RCA's around seems to lower the noise a little, so that likely is most of the issue. but it's not intruding on the music. still; it bugs me.

here is a couple of pics of the ML3's fired up, with the power supplies in their new spots.

View attachment 38826

View attachment 38827

Hi Mike, nice to see that my old Lammies, these ML3s made it to your place!

You need to get the Lamm LL1.1 preamplifier and all your distress will dissipate. No need to move the power supplies around and futz with balanced ICs. The LL1.1 preamplifier is made to fit like a glove with the ML3 amplifier. Most likely, your Dart preamplifier is not a fit with these amplifiers...nothing to do with the Dart, it is good kit, but
the issue is that there is not enough gain traveling down the chain to appropriately feed the beasts...the lack of the necessary gain requirements is your bottleneck.

I had the ML3s ~ 9 years and had fun trying different frontend preamps...the Lamm LL1.1 is by far the best way to go chasing down the magic the Lamm ML3s are capable of producing.

Cheers!
ALF

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What kind of noise are we talking about here Mike, I have the same amps on 105db horns and their dead quiet. There's no tube rush with the ML3s do you have a ground loop?

david

I don't pretend to know what the noise is. I would call it a hum, likely a 60hz hum. noticeably louder from the left channel, but still audible from the listening position from the right channel. I've tried the following things to reduce the hum.

--removed all grounding from the ML3's and all sources---no change.
--switched interconnects side to side. still louder in the left side.
--turned off lights, turned off digital, turned off all three active isolation devices, turned off bass tower amps, unplugged bass tower amps---no change.
--when I move the left channel interconnect around I do get a small variance in the hum.
--note--dart preamp is battery powered. and I've only used it in battery mode with the ML3's.

--I have not tried cheater plugs on the power cords, wanted your approval to try that first.
--my Equitech isolation transformer does have balanced power. so I removed the amplifier power cords from the Equi=tech outlets and tried the 'dirty' direct outlets next to the Equi=tech outlets---noise 50% worse.

Hi Mike, nice to see that my old Lammies, these ML3s made it to your place!

You need to get the Lamm LL1.1 preamplifier and all your distress will dissipate. No need to move the power supplies around and futz with balanced ICs. The LL1.1 preamplifier is made to fit like a glove with the ML3 amplifier. Most likely, your Dart preamplifier is not a fit with these amplifiers...nothing to do with the Dart, it is good kit, but
the issue is that there is not enough gain traveling down the chain to appropriately feed the beasts...the lack of the necessary gain requirements is your bottleneck.

I had the ML3s ~ 9 years and had fun trying different frontend preamps...the Lamm LL1.1 is by far the best way to go chasing down the magic the Lamm ML3s are capable of producing.

Cheers!
ALF

thanks Alan. I am enjoying your lammies.

if it takes acquiring the 4 box dual manual volume control LL1.1 to remove this noise from the ML3's, either I will move on from the ML3's or learn to live with the noise.

the dart pre stays, and not interested in integrating 4 more boxes into my system. that is my viewpoint right here, right now. I've learned never to say never.

I know you are trying to help and appreciate your speaking up. you joined a chorus of LL1.1 recommenders.....all well intended.

 

[Tango]

I don't pretend to know what the noise is. I would call it a hum, likely a 60hz hum. noticeably louder from the left channel, but still audible from the listening position from the right channel. I've tried the following things to reduce the hum.

--removed all grounding from the ML3's and all sources---no change.
--switched interconnects side to side. still louder in the left side.
--turned off lights, turned off digital, turned off all three active isolation devices, turned off bass tower amps, unplugged bass tower amps---no change.
--when I move the left channel interconnect around I do get a small variance in the hum.

--I have not tried cheater plugs on the power cords, wanted your approval to try that first.
--my Equitech isolation transformer does have balanced power. so I removed the amplifier power cords from the Equi=tech outlets and tried the 'dirty' direct outlets next to the Equi=tech outlets---noise 50% worse.

Dear Mike,

I got hums like that coming out from my mid horns and tweeters when I disassembled my system a few times. Some time it happened to my left tower. Sometime it happens to my right tower.
The cause of my hums came from the connection at the speakers cable to the amps. I disconnected and reconnected them and the problem went away every time. I hope your problem is the same as mine.

Kind regards,
Tang

** You stay up very late tonight .

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe try a cheater cord to lift the ground and see if the hum goes away?

 

[morricab]

Tube power Amps are a bit noisy , at least se ones.
I think pre Amps are the most important thing to get the magic , so maybe the lamm pre drivng the darts Will be the solution.
No noise power and tube magic

I don't know what SETs you have experience with but the ones I have had in my system from KR Audio, Ayon and now Aries Cerat are dead quiet even into 98db/watt horns I use.

 

[morricab]

I don't pretend to know what the noise is. I would call it a hum, likely a 60hz hum. noticeably louder from the left channel, but still audible from the listening position from the right channel. I've tried the following things to reduce the hum.

--removed all grounding from the ML3's and all sources---no change.
--switched interconnects side to side. still louder in the left side.
--turned off lights, turned off digital, turned off all three active isolation devices, turned off bass tower amps, unplugged bass tower amps---no change.
--when I move the left channel interconnect around I do get a small variance in the hum.
--note--dart preamp is battery powered. and I've only used it in battery mode with the ML3's.

--I have not tried cheater plugs on the power cords, wanted your approval to try that first.
--my Equitech isolation transformer does have balanced power. so I removed the amplifier power cords from the Equi=tech outlets and tried the 'dirty' direct outlets next to the Equi=tech outlets---noise 50% worse.



thanks Alan. I am enjoying your lammies.

if it takes acquiring the 4 box dual manual volume control LL1.1 to remove this noise from the ML3's, either I will move on from the ML3's or learn to live with the noise.

the dart pre stays, and not interested in integrating 4 more boxes into my system. that is my viewpoint right here, right now. I've learned never to say never.

I know you are trying to help and appreciate your speaking up. you joined a chorus of LL1.1 recommenders.....all well intended.

If you disconnect all interconnects does it still hum?

 

[spiritofmusic]

God I hate these inexplicable hum problems.
It takes me back to my first big system in 1996, all SS, that had intermittent issues.
I got all sorts of advice, including the classic “tear up all the carpets to eliminate the noise” .
I got rid of the hum by...selling the system LOL.
Interestingly I’ve had no hum issues w my current rig which is all tubes incl 70W/ch SETs, and 6 dedicated lines.
Good luck Mike on sorting this, I’m sure I speak for all of us (especially the tube amps aficionados) in wanting you to have the best early experience of SETs magic.

 

[ddk]

I don't pretend to know what the noise is. I would call it a hum, likely a 60hz hum. noticeably louder from the left channel, but still audible from the listening position from the right channel. I've tried the following things to reduce the hum.

--removed all grounding from the ML3's and all sources---no change.
--switched interconnects side to side. still louder in the left side.
--turned off lights, turned off digital, turned off all three active isolation devices, turned off bass tower amps, unplugged bass tower amps---no change.
--when I move the left channel interconnect around I do get a small variance in the hum.
--note--dart preamp is battery powered. and I've only used it in battery mode with the ML3's.

--I have not tried cheater plugs on the power cords, wanted your approval to try that first.
--my Equitech isolation transformer does have balanced power. so I removed the amplifier power cords from the Equi=tech outlets and tried the 'dirty' direct outlets next to the Equi=tech outlets---noise 50% worse.

You can use cheater plugs on the amps but that probably won’t be enough. The amps on their own with nothing connected should be dead quiet, problem is usually upstream, will talk on the phone tomorrow.
david

 

[andromedaaudio]

I don't know what SETs you have experience with but the ones I have had in my system from KR Audio, Ayon and now Aries Cerat are dead quiet even into 98db/watt horns I use.

Im not nescesarily talking about hum in the sense of noise coming through the tweeter , but transformer hum which is a kinda 50 HZ ( or 60 Hz ) moving of the windings in the transformer .
The higher the output in the ( SE )tube power amp the bigger transformers the more noise, it doesnt become louder with increase in volume .
The Zanden 7000 integrated 300 B set didnt have much transformer hum , small wattage small transformers .
The Lamm probably not much at around 30 watts .
Besides that there is the tube noise / hum which increases with volume coming through the tweeter
My Cat hums the Graaf GM 200 more so , although not SET , transformer hum mostly .

 

[Aries Cerat]

Im not nescesarily talking about hum in the sense of noise coming through the tweeter , but transformer hum which is a kinda 50 HZ ( or 60 Hz ) moving of the windings in the transformer .
The higher the output in the ( SE )tube power amp the bigger transformers the more noise, it doesnt become louder with increase in volume .
The Zanden 7000 integrated 300 B set didnt have much transformer hum , small wattage small transformers .
The Lamm probably not much at around 30 watts .
Besides that there is the tube noise / hum which increases with volume coming through the tweeter
My Cat hums the Graaf GM 200 more so , although not SET , transformer hum mostly .

Hello

50/100Hz hum has nothing to do with the power of the set neither the size of the transformer.Hum is usually noisy filament supplies,of noisy PSU.
It is possible to have SE with -100db noise yes at 50/100Hz

Most SE have bad filament supplies and bad ripple rejection on their PSUs.Nothing to do with power rating.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Spec s. Hmm. If rather trust my ears on this one.
Boulder for example goes to extreme length to isolate their. Transformers. And they are. Dead quit

 

[Aries Cerat]

I suspect you mean mechanical hum of the power transformers,which has nothing to do with hum at speaker terminals.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sure thats what i wrote , hum at speakerterminal never heard of that , sorry

 

[Aries Cerat]

Sure thats what i wrote , hum at speakerterminal never heard of that , sorry

at speaker terminal = electical hum.

Yes transformer buzz / hum from power transformers is a different issue.DC component in mains is many times the culprit.Although it is the power transf that buzzes and not the OTP,bigger power transformers are more sensitive to dc in mains,especially toroidal.But again nothing to do with the amp being either SE ,tube or SS.

Cheers

 

[microstrip]

I don't pretend to know what the noise is. I would call it a hum, likely a 60hz hum. noticeably louder from the left channel, but still audible from the listening position from the right channel. I've tried the following things to reduce the hum.

--removed all grounding from the ML3's and all sources---no change.
--switched interconnects side to side. still louder in the left side.
--turned off lights, turned off digital, turned off all three active isolation devices, turned off bass tower amps, unplugged bass tower amps---no change.
--when I move the left channel interconnect around I do get a small variance in the hum.
--note--dart preamp is battery powered. and I've only used it in battery mode with the ML3's.

--I have not tried cheater plugs on the power cords, wanted your approval to try that first.
--my Equitech isolation transformer does have balanced power. so I removed the amplifier power cords from the Equi=tech outlets and tried the 'dirty' direct outlets next to the Equi=tech outlets---noise 50% worse.



thanks Alan. I am enjoying your lammies.

if it takes acquiring the 4 box dual manual volume control LL1.1 to remove this noise from the ML3's, either I will move on from the ML3's or learn to live with the noise.

the dart pre stays, and not interested in integrating 4 more boxes into my system. that is my viewpoint right here, right now. I've learned never to say never.

I know you are trying to help and appreciate your speaking up. you joined a chorus of LL1.1 recommenders.....all well intended.

IMHO you should try the EA 50ohm BNC cables with a BNC T , a 50 ohm terminator and an RCA BNC adapter . It will emulate your 458 input at the Lamm RCA, using the best mode of the NH18. See http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?691-Which-amp-or-amps-are-darTZeel-owners-using-with-their-NHB-18NS-preamp&p=59796&viewfull=1#post59796 . I will post a photo of my adapters later today.

 

[andromedaaudio]

IT becomes hum after its tranduced
Fact is my transistor Amps were far less noisy

 

[morricab]

Sure thats what i wrote , hum at speakerterminal never heard of that , sorry

I have heard both mechanical and electrical hum from various amp types over the years, it is most definitely not only a tube amp issue. Some of the noisiest amps I have had are SS, also with the "hiss" one hears through the tweeters. The quietest are the ones I mentioned before.