You know you're an audio junkie when .................

[FrantzM]

I hope we do not get to a point where we become just another forum on the Internet. One of those with an unending chorus of "Congrats". "me too"."excellent"etc. We seemingly have worked hard to lose many serious Audio Industry researchers that at one point , mostly in the beginning of the WBF, were rather active, they simply do not post at all and some have left officially. Attacking their research was accepted as part of the debate and some of these attacks weren't always nice. Now we have become so sensitive that when someone posts his (contrary) opinion in terms that are deemed "blunt" he is perceived and labelled a troll. Often in the name of attacking the post not the poster.

For my part. I believe we become accustomed to the sound of a cable rather than anything special happening to the cable. It seems that for many the notion of "burn-in" is a more sexy and more seductive concept than the very trivial and pedestrian " acclimatization" or the even more low-brow "getting used to".

Hope this is not labelled "trolling" . if it is then by all means remove the post.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I believe we become accustomed to the sound of a cable rather than anything special happening to the cable. It seems that for many the notion of "burn-in" is a more sexy and more seductive concept than the very trivial and pedestrian " acclimatization" or the even more low-brow "getting used to".

That's what I believe in more than anything else. I am not believer or disbeliever but since there isn't enough science behind it to make a solid case for burn-in, this is a perfectly acceptable and logical alternative answer.

 

[PeterA]

With apologies to Barry, the OP, it seems that this thread has turned to the subject of cable burn in. I understand the phenomenon of becoming acclimated to a new piece of gear and how that familiarization makes it seem as though there are sonic changes taking place during an initial period of time.

However, regarding cables that I have inserted into my system: I have both listened while cables were new and at regular intervals during the first 200 hours or so. I noticed differences. I also briefly listened to new cables just after installation, and then left the system run 24/7 and returned 250 hours or so later to listen. Sure enough, without listening during that period and not having any time to become acclimated to the sound of the cables over time, I also noticed differences.

This leads me to think that something is indeed happening beyond mere acclimation or familiarization with the cables over time.

I'd like to see the results of a controlled study in which two copies of the same cable were listened to by a group of listeners, one brand new, the other with 400 hours of playing time. Perhaps this has been done and already discussed in another thread.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Purite audio , there are never gonna be winners in a discussion like this , every body will stick to their position and why not.

 

[treitz3]

The problem is your ( everyone's) aural memory is extremely poor...<snip>

I would beg to differ on that one. Strongly. The switch shouldn't need to be instant either, unless the changes are so subtle that it would be required to tell any difference.

Tom

 

[Joe Whip]

I would love to participate in a group listening double blind study with burn in as the subject.

 

[FrantzM]

PeterA

I appreciate your moderate and sincere stance. As has been posted elsewhere our auditory memory is extremely unreliable. The very same piece on the very same system under the same condition can be interpreted differently by our brain IOW nothing has changed but our perception of the phenomena has. One interesting parallel are the optical illusions. Once you know what to look for you start seeing things, in the meantime the picture , images has not changed .. it has been and remained the same.

I donl't see how the thread would not have come to the issue of burn-in BTW...

Enjoy your wonderful systems people! for a while. I will do the same... I am getting (or trying to get ) a pair of DeVialet Phantom ... Will not come in time for the New Year ... Hope it doesn't require burn-in ( I believe mechanical components . transducers in general may sometimes need some burn-in) Room is woefully inadequate but hey it will be a way to get music off the inside of my skull (headphones for the past 4 years but somewhat because no tactile music feel with the cans)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would love to participate in a group listening double blind study with burn in as the subject.

 

[PeterA]

The problem is your ( everyone's) aural memory is extremely poor,

Perhaps you have a different definition of "extremely poor". I realize that my audio memory is not entirely reliable, especially over time, but I am able to arrive at some conclusions regarding preferences between components. How is it possible that we can identify sonic differences between cartridges, tonearms, different LP pressings, etc, with repeated consistency if our aural memory is "extremely poor"? Why do we spend time making tiny speaker positioning changes to improve the sounds of our systems? What about Azimuth, VTA, VTF changes for analog guys?

I agree that cable break in may be more subtle, but people do describe it as a real phenomenon. Are they simply deluding themselves?

Also, in one of your earlier posts you write that cable burn in is made up by the dealers and manufacturers. What would you say is their motive for such deception?

 

[treitz3]

Are they simply deluding themselves?

No.

Tom

 

[Barry2013]

Firstly thanks to all fellow members for their supportive posts in response to those from Purite Audio. Much appreciated!
The original purpose of the thread was not to start a debate on cable burn in but rather to illustrate how attached we become to hearing good sound quality from our systems and how much we miss it when for whatever reason it is no longer available. My new cables was simply an example and I am sure other members have many other examples.
I had not really expected the arguments from PA but perhaps I should not have been surprised given his track record on, for example, the Entreq grounding thread. What stands out from that was despite his consistent advocacy of measurement and conclusive scientific validation it emerged after some sustained questioning that his own speakers, Cessro Lizts, do not measure very well at all.
I find it astonishing that people on this forum cannot be trusted to rely upon their ears when assessing the sound quality of their system or particular/potential parts of it. We have after all built up our systems over many years of experiment/trial and error, rejections of particular items or combinations before settling on our chosen mix.In general I am sure most members have done a lot of listening and research including home demos before making the decision to buy or not to buy and have long since learnt not to rely upon initial impressions.At some earlier stage I have no doubt we have made unsuccessful choices which have taught us how to avoid any repeat errors. That is certainly my experience and I now feel I can rely upon what my ears tell me if on occasions that has required a week or so of listening and evaluating because it is certainly the case that initial impressions should not be trusted because different can so easily be heard as improvements.
Whatever the science the notion of cable burn in is very largely accepted by audiophiles despite some exceptions who seem unable cope with the notion of judgement unsupported by conclusive scientific evidence or elaborate blind listening tests and an exaggerated notion of expectation bias.
There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the sound quality from the newly installed Entreq Challenger speaker cables was palpably inferior to the well burned in Konstantins that they replaced. No other change whatsoever was made to my system including the positioning of the speakers. Equally there is no doubt in my mind and as I posted that after several days the sound quality improved,
Relying upon what you hear got you to the system you have as did the ears get the makers of musical instruments to the production Stradivarius violins, Steinway pianos etc when audio measurement techniques did not include the present range of such equipment.
Science, measurement has its place but the ultimate test is does it sound right to the listener and yes that includes individual preferences honed over many years of experience.
Others are welcome to take a different view but is it really too much to ask that people eschew dogmatic dismissals of others experiences and in so doing erode the confidence and development of less experienced listeners in the earlier stage of developing their hearing and listening skills.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Regarding a trained ear :
Since i am interested in speakerdesign and i have followed the evolution of some audiophiles systems over the years not particulary on this site alone , i must say some switch cables in such an order, while implementing also other components in their systems that it is good to warn individuals who start in this hobby that cables will NOT change a fault in FR or speakerphase problems or a simply underpowered system .
Quite a few audiophiles dont know where a system problem lies , and start switching cables / powersuplies hoping to change the end result in a almost never ending cycle , and high end should not be about that .

Its not that i doubt youre expiriences , but ive seen so much BS that its sometimes hard to cut through it

 

[BlueFox]

That is a good point. A very major problem some people have is trying to correct system deficiencies by swapping cables. Wrong. If your system has too much treble, and not enough bass, then get better gear. So what if it cost 5 or 6 figures. It still sucks, and 5 figure cables aren't going to fix it. Cables do matter. They matter a lot. However, you want a cable whose output is the same as its input. Of course, it takes a bit of burn-in for the cable to act in a coherent matter with its source and sink, but that is fine.

 

[PeterA]

The only way to properly compare tone arms ,cartridges etc is to have two identical tone arms ,two identical turntables,fitted with different cartridges playing through the same system, we did that here with two Dynavector cartridges the XV1-T and S.
VTF can often be adjusted on the fly enabling instant comparisons.
Keith.

I agree. You only want to change the component being evaluated and keep all other variables constant. Did I suggest otherwise?

I'm not aware of any tonearms that have VTF that can be adjusted on the fly. How would you move the counterweight without wreaking havoc to the arm and stylus while trying to play an LP? Sounds like a disaster.

Which arms do you suggest have VTF on the fly adjustability?

 

[asiufy]

That is a good point. A very major problem some people have is trying to correct system deficiencies by swapping cables. Wrong. If your system has too much treble, and not enough bass, then get better gear. So what if it cost 5 or 6 figures. It still sucks, and 5 figure cables aren't going to fix it. Cables do matter. They matter a lot. However, you want a cable whose output is the same as its input. Of course, it takes a bit of burn-in for the cable to act in a coherent matter with its source and sink, but that is fine.

Bud,

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. A cable can effectively alter the balance of the system, making everything darker/brighter, etc. And the user, without even knowing, might attribute the overall system balance down to a particular piece of gear, while it's the cable (or cables) that are tilting things one way or the other.
This is not a guess, I've seen it happen, many times.
So, yes, if you're not getting enough bass, it could be some of your gear. Or it could be a poorly matched cable.


alexandre

 

[PeterA]

Sorry typo VTA, although the SMEV has spring loaded tracking force I believe.
Keith

I see. It was a typo, but why then try to support the statement by bringing up the SME dynamic VTF dial?

VTF on an SME V arm can be set statically, just like most other arms. However, it also has dynamic VTF which is set by rotating a dial. But if you are at all familiar with this mechanism, you would know that you could never do it while an LP was playing.

 

[audio.bill]

Just a point of reference for those interested, I recall that some Micro Seiki tonearms like their MA-505 would allow setting the VTF and anti-skating while playing a record. As shown in the image below, you would turn the larger of the black knobs on the right to set the tracking force and the smaller one to set anti-skate both of which were applied by the thread shown. It was quite an ingenious piece of engineering, and I wonder why I haven't seen something similar on other more modern designs.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Burn in simply does not exist, how could it, by what mechanism?
Burn in is just some nonsense propagated by dealers and manufacturers.
Keith.

And quite a few audiophilers and i happen to be one of them, an audio dealer that thinks like that i am realy realy surprised.

 

[Barry2013]

Just a point of reference for those interested, I recall that some Micro Seiki tonearms like their MA-505 would allow setting the VTF and anti-skating while playing a record. As shown in the image below, you would turn the larger of the black knobs on the right to set the tracking force and the smaller one to set anti-skate both of which were applied by the thread shown. It was quite an ingenious piece of engineering, and I wonder why I haven't seen something similar on other more modern designs.

I wouldn't like to try that while a record was playing

 

[BlueFox]

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. A cable can effectively alter the balance of the system, making everything darker/brighter, etc. And the user, without even knowing, might attribute the overall system balance down to a particular piece of gear, while it's the cable (or cables) that are tilting things one way or the other.
This is not a guess, I've seen it happen, many times.
So, yes, if you're not getting enough bass, it could be some of your gear. Or it could be a poorly matched cable.

That was my whole point. A cable that has such an effect is a bad cable since it is distorting the signal in some manner. As I said, what comes out of the cable should be identical to what goes into the cable. Of course, that is easier said than done. So, I guess the ideal cable is the one that does the least damage.