Zellaton Plural Evo

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

What do you think Ron? You heard Myles system presumably the way it is represented in this video. Do you think the video sounds anything like what you heard when you were actually there? I presume that Myles thinks it’s a good representation because he chose to post it in public.

I have to disclaim that I am not familiar with the song. Listening on the speakers built into my iMac desktop computer I do not think the sound of Myles' system is at all well-represented in this video. I do not think Myles' system sounds like this in person. (I, personally, am sure I would prefer to drive Myles' new speakers with his old conrad-johnson tube amps, and I am pretty sure that I said this to Myles in person. But that is a relatively small sonic difference and purely a matter of personal preference. When do I ever not prefer tube amps on any system? I slightly preferred the VAC 450s on Mike's system, and Mike prefers his darTZeels.)

In the above video of the Zellaton system I hear a strong tilt of the entire frequency range to the higher frequencies (something I am very sensitive to and I do not care for). The drums sound recessed and almost lost in the mix compared to the sound of the drums in the Altec video. The sound of the Zellaton system in this particular video sounds to me like, in a perjorative word, bad digital.

Conversely, based on the sound of this particular video, I would be happy to listen to the Altec system all day long. The instruments in the Altec video sound natural, real, organic, dense.

People who prefer the sound of the Zellaton system likely would hear the Altec system as having shaved off the high frequencies. I am fine with that, even if such audiophiles are correct, as I do not hear in real life the upper frequency emphasis (or "neutrality" to adherents of this sound) that I often hear from audio systems.

 

[wil]

This Altec video is one of, if not the best, sounding videos I’ve heard on this site — with all the caveats that go with video listening. Presence, density, no horn coloration, no distracting and distorting room reverb. Would love to hear in person.

 

[Al M.]

I have to disclaim that I am not familiar with the song. Listening on the speakers built into my iMac desktop computer I do not think the sound of Myles' system is at all well-represented in this video. I do not think Myles' system sounds like this in person. (I, personally, am sure I would prefer to drive Myles' new speakers with his old conrad-johnson tube amps, and I am pretty sure that I said this to Myles in person. But that is a relatively small sonic difference and purely a matter of personal preference. When do I ever not prefer tube amps on any system? I slightly preferred the VAC 450s on Mike's system, and Mike prefers his darTZeels.)

In the above video of the Zelaton system I hear a strong tilt of the entire frequency range to the higher frequencies (something I am very sensitive to and I do not care for). The drums sound recessed and almost lost in the mix compared to the sound of the drums in the Altec video. The sound of the Zelaton system in this particular video sounds to me like, in a perjorative word, bad digital.

Conversely, based on the sound of this particular video, I would be happy to listen to the Altec system all day long. The instruments in the Altec video sound natural, real, organic, dense.

People who prefer the sound of the Zelaton system likely would hear the Altec system as having shaved off the high frequencies. I am fine with that, even if such audiophiles are correct, as I do not hear in real life the upper frequency emphasis (or "neutrality" to adherents of this sound) that I often hear from audio systems.

I listened with headphones, which are quite benign in their frequency response and neither dull nor tipped up. I am very familiar with this song. I agree with you that on the Myles video there is a strong tilt of the entire frequency range to the higher frequencies; you can hear that right away on Ozzy's voice. The guitar solo in the second Myles video (as Ked said, it's at 2.5 min in the Altec video, actually at 2:50) sounds decidedly metallic. As you say, the whole thing sounds like bad digital. Like you, I have a hard time believing that this video represents Myles's actual sound.

On the other hand, the Altec video swings to the other extreme. It is indeed a bit dull. There is no energy in the guitar, in the solo or otherwise; the greater prominence of the drums, while partially probably a function of the Altec system, is for certain partially also due to the higher frequencies being muted. That automatically brings out more prominence in drums and bass. Ozzy's voice does sound more natural. Due to the lack of energy and muted frequency response, I would not be happy to listen to the Altec all day long, at least not as represented in the video. After 5 minutes I would bet bored out of my skull.

Both videos sound decidedly undynamic.

 

[MadFloyd]

I think these apples to oranges videos are idiotic.

it all depends on how they are recorded and the playback system. If I listen on my iPhone speaker the warmer one sounds better. If I listen via iPhone with AirPods Max the other one sounds much better.

What’s the point?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks Bonzo. Interesting comparison with very different sounds.

I think the Zellaton system sounds very clean and separated, has a higher tonal balance, but compared to the horn system, it lacks some natural, organic feel and that "life" and energy. Drums are more hollow on the Altec. The Zellaton has black backgrounds, but it sounds a bit sterile to me. The bass quality is quite different too. Perhaps they are different masterings on the guitar solo. Rooms are also very different. Great music, IMO.

+1 the Altecs feel so much less constrained or held back in their nature and by their boxes.

A kind of sophistication and taut exactness comes with more contemporary approaches like the Zellaton Goldmund pairing… and that politeness becomes quickly evident when you put the Altec vott video up as a quick Zen slap to the forehead as a side by side compare. This is a great example of where videos can create a more immediate understanding of the essential nature in a sound system.

An outcome created by (in this case) a contemporary sophistry is that seeking to polish and to perfect we can also tune an essential rawness out… one that is critical for more raw music. This also isn’t about a pinpoint analysis but simple (and stark) holistic examples of two completely different perspectives in design and captures the difference between very different aims and approaches across time.

There’s simply more joyful wildness and abandon and fantastic head banging with the Altecs. They are more tuned into the spirit and context of driving rock and roll. There is more flow and ease and less anxiety about bass in the Altecs. One hints at the fierceness and edge and the other sails through and let’s it all out. One is kinda sitting there and for some enjoying in listening and the other is in the zone and up there and dancin.

 

[Al M.]

I think these apples to oranges videos are idiotic.

it all depends on how they are recorded and the playback system. If I listen on my iPhone speaker the warmer one sounds better. If I listen via iPhone with AirPods Max the other one sounds much better.

What’s the point?

That's why I have always said that system videos are nonsense. They mostly sound like shit, a few exceptions allowed.

And as you say, it depends on the playback. I once played the same video via the same headphones through either my phone or through the computer. On one of the two devices the sound was much more spacious and reverberant than on the other. So who knows how the system sounds in real life? Why would anyone voluntarily go through the torture of having their system represented through playback the outcome of which they cannot control?

 

[Al M.]

+1 the Altecs feel so much less constrained or held back in their nature and by their boxes. A kind of sophistication and taut exactness comes with more contemporary approaches like the Zellaton goldmund pairing to design and adds as a politeness that becomes Avery quickly evident when you simply put the Altec vott video next to it as a quick side by side compare. This is perhaps sn example where videos do create a more immediate understanding of the essential nature of a system. An outcome created by our contemporary sophistry is that in seeking polish and perfection we may have tuned the essential rawness out that is critical for more raw music. This also isn’t about pinpoint atomised analysis but a stark holistic example of a completely different perspective which captures an essential difference between very different aims and approaches across time. There’s simply more wildness and abandon and fantastic head banging with the Altecs that is easily more in tune with the spirit and context of rock and roll. One is sitting there listening while the others up there dancin.

Unlike you I find the Altec video excruciatingly boring, way too polite for rock and roll. Zero excitement. Not that the other video is any better.

Both videos sound like shit. And I am sure both actual systems sound much better than their videos in real life.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Unlike you I find the Altec video excruciatingly boring, way too polite for rock and roll. Zero excitement. Not that the other video is any better.

Both videos sound like shit. And I am sure both actual systems sound much better than their videos in real life.

All good Al, it comes back to why there is maybe no one true perspective in this. I enjoy the differences in how we perceive, part of what is shaping my perception is in retention having lived now with the kinds of systems I’ve lived with. We are always coming from somewhere and that is often a very different somewhere. This is for me why it’s important to be in a group, it becomes a shared value so we don’t just get lost in our own individual perceptions.

 

[PeterA]

That's why I have always said that system videos are nonsense. They mostly sound like shit, a few exceptions allowed.

And as you say, it depends on the playback. I once played the same video via the same headphones through either my phone or through the computer. On one of the two devices the sound was much more spacious and reverberant than on the other. So who knows how the system sounds in real life? Why would anyone voluntarily go through the torture of having their system represented through playback the outcome of which they cannot control?

Al, It would seem that Myles disagrees with this sentiment. He made this video plus others from the same LP and posted them publicly on his website. I doubt he thinks they are nonsense or sound terrible. You have chosen to denigrate system videos and have stated repeatedly that you will never post one of your system. That is fine, but I have to wonder why you comment on their sound if you consider them to be nonsense. Why not just ignore such videos?

 

[Al M.]

Al, It would seem that Myles disagrees with this sentiment. He made this video plus others from the same LP and posted them publicly on his website. I doubt he thinks they are nonsense or sound terrible. You have chosen to denigrate system videos and have stated repeatedly that you will never post one of your system. That is fine, but I have to wonder why you comment on their sound if you consider them to be nonsense. Why not just ignore such videos?

Because I found Ron's comments interesting and worth a reply after checking out the videos myself. That simple.

 

[Carlos269]

Because I found Ron's comments interesting and worth a reply after checking out the videos myself. That simple.

Al, one of Ron’s comments resonates with my own experience and something that I have written about previously on this forum on numerous threads and that is:

People who prefer the sound of the Zelaton system likely would hear the Altec system as having shaved off the high frequencies. I am fine with that, even if such audiophiles are correct, as I do not hear in real life the upper frequency emphasis (or "neutrality" to adherents of this sound) that I often hear from audio systems.

I have stated previously that to me the high frequencies contour is what typically differentiates a “natural” or vintage presentation from a modern or hi-fi presentation. So I’m curious, Al do you hear all the high frequencies resolution and detail that is typically rendered by most high-end system, in your everyday life or when listening to live unamplified acoustic music?

 

[PeterA]

People who prefer the sound of the Zelaton system likely would hear the Altec system as having shaved off the high frequencies.

Ron, it is possible that one shaves off the HFs, but it is also possible that the other enhances them.

 

[tima]

I listened with headphones, which are quite benign in their frequency response and neither dull nor tipped up. I am very familiar with this song. I agree with you that on the Myles video there is a strong tilt of the entire frequency range to the higher frequencies; you can hear that right away on Ozzy's voice. The guitar solo in the second Myles video (as Ked said, it's at 2.5 min in the Altec video, actually at 2:50) sounds decidedly metallic. As you say, the whole thing sounds like bad digital. Like you, I have a hard time believing that this video represents Myles's actual sound.

On the other hand, the Altec video swings to the other extreme. It is indeed a bit dull. There is no energy in the guitar, in the solo or otherwise; the greater prominence of the drums, while partially probably a function of the Altec system, is for certain partially also due to the higher frequencies being muted. That automatically brings out more prominence in drums and bass. Ozzy's voice does sound more natural. Due to the lack of energy and muted frequency response, I would not be happy to listen to the Altec all day long, at least not as represented in the video. After 5 minutes I would bet bored out of my skull.

I listened to the three videos on my desktop speakers before two of them became unavailable and my first reaction was similar to Al's. Well, no, my very first reaction was 'I'm so glad I listen to Mahler'.

 

[bonzo75]

Al, It would seem that Myles disagrees with this sentiment. He made this video plus others from the same LP and posted them publicly on his website. I doubt he thinks they are nonsense or sound terrible. You have chosen to denigrate system videos and have stated repeatedly that you will never post one of your system. That is fine, but I have to wonder why you comment on their sound if you consider them to be nonsense. Why not just ignore such videos?

This is precisely what I suggested to him many times. He Has zero appreciation of videos, he has never tried to understand them, he is usually the first to post and shit on them. I am surprised he held back for 4 posts or so this time. It is possible that this particular black Sabbath song is named after people like him who armchair trash videos without any other contribution. I have never met sometime so devoted to not learning

 

[bonzo75]

The Altec video was the best rock I ever heard in person outside the Zeppelin on Mike's system. I see most of the attributes on the video as do people who have not heard in person.

The max improvement that horn will have is add a more resolution on the top with Radian or TAD drivers but that will benefit classical more than rock. I have mentioned this many times too

The objective is not to just analyze videos as some sort of competition. If you don't have exposure to good dual woofer FLH, go out and get some. If that video gets you to do that, that is great, instead of discussing the benefits of videos vs defending modern vs vintage and high cost vs low cost. Unfortunately, if this video regresses the discussion to the same old stuff, the person who keeps posting that is the loser. Videos like hifi shows are meant to increase your exposure and make you investigate something.

I have also heard the 300k zellaton with all FM and it's a great speaker that I have praised many times on this forum. I have heard the dual FLH and I have praised that too. The guys on this forum who are fighting have heard neither zellaton nor any dual woofer FLH let alone Altec.

Ps: I have watched black Sabbath live at Hyde Park too, and while they had aged, they blew away Soundgarden who opened for them. Oh wait you probably haven't watched black Sabbath either.

 

[Al M.]

Ron, it is possible that one shaves off the HFs, but it is also possible that the other enhances them.

Both is true. One sounds too tipped up, the other one too dull. But then, it's the sound of the videos, not necessarily -- and hopefully -- the systems in real life.

 

[Al M.]

This is precisely what I suggested to him many times. He Has zero appreciation of videos, he has never tried to understand them, he is usually the first to post and shit on them. I am surprised he held back for 4 posts or so this time. It is possible that this particular black Sabbath song is named after people like him who armchair trash videos without any other contribution. I have never met sometime so devoted to not learning

You're funny, Ked. What is there to understand about shitty sound? You talk like it were possible to somehow miraculously separate the sound of the system from what is heard on the video of it. That is a delusion.

I have repeatedly pointed out that the videos probably do not represent the systems in real life. Others have taken the opportunity, based on the videos, to either praise or trash one of the two systems. Go figure.

 

[Al M.]

The Altec video was the best rock I ever heard in person outside the Zeppelin on Mike's system. I see most of the attributes on the video as do people who have not heard in person.

You make my point.

The problem is that those who make and post videos think the system attributes come through because apparently in their imagination they automatically fill in the gap between what's actually on the video and what they hear in person from the system.

The listener who only hears the video of the system, but not the system in person, does not have that luxury to do that.

Case in point: There have been several times when I had to defend Peter's system against what people heard on the video, given what I had heard in person from it. And that while Peter's videos have some of the best sound. It still falls far short of what it is intended to represent.

Yes, sometimes you can highlight good things you hear on a video. Often that is not easily possible, or not possible without caveats, and in all cases the bad things of the video sound, which may not be representative of the actual system sound, remain inseparably associated with the good.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Videos certainly don t tell the whole story .
But a speaker Freq balance is one thing one can actually measure in audio , there are not many things one can measure in transducer tech. , but this one of them .
Regarding horns id like to hear well executed systems like Tangs or davids / peters
But the blumenhofers Klipches Avantgarde Zingali and a whole bunch of other i ve heard so far didnt convince me of a certain superiour technologie .
But the worst demo i have heard ever was of a MBL radial strahler at a show , probably bad set up though .

 

[bonzo75]

The Zingali are poor speakers. To confuse them with horns shows such a big lack of understanding.

I am amazed you can mention Zingali, Blumenhofer and MBL when the discussion is about videos of Altec and zellaton

No video aficionado claimed they tell the full story.