Zero Distortion: FM Acoustics, Zellaton, Stenheim, Brinkmann

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No. But I did that across two systems with same result. I compared stock recti (allnic h3000) to half priced zesto and the zesto won. I was critical of Allnic on the forums, and Myles suggested rolling rectis. When I first visited UK Paul he too had the same Allnic with stock recti, and I didn't like his system with that, while with my Lampi it was sounding delightful. Realizing the Lampi uses the 5u4g recti too (mine is the KR) I put that on to the Allnic and bam, magic. Realized Dcc is also using that with his Allnic.

So I went back to the first place of zesto compare with the KR recti and not only does the Allnic sound much better now, but he also has a twice priced Trulife, and the Allnic with the stock recti sounds worse than that while with the KR sounds better than that.

In both systems with the stock recti you get a prettiness to the highs and lack of bass/midbass, body and dynamics.

Rockitman etc also roll their rectis. I now understand that even the other tubes in the Allnic can be rolled.

The h5000 apart from the same rectifier uses my favorite tubes, the KR 242, as stock. You can also upgrade the diodes in it, as Albert Porter and babybear did. Know a guy who owns the 5000, Dartzeel, IO eclipse, thoress and NAT phonos and various carts and prefers the Allnic. Good enough data points for me.

I am sure Trulife and zesto might respond to valve rolling, but haven't tried that. Zesto for its price is quite a giant killer though

Thanks. But your detailed answer only increases my suspicion. The rectifier is a very simple component in a key point of the power supply, but studied and analyzed since the 40's - a long time. From a technical point of view such extreme susceptibility only suggests a poor design, with minimal power supply rejection factor, or a poor power supply design. Anyone can expect that its performance will be very dependent on mains quality, and that as soon as emission of the rectifier cathode decreases a bit, performance will drop significantly.
Perhaps great for tweakers and tube rollers, but not my cup of tea.
 

bazelio

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There is a guy named Chris F on the forum who suggested what valves to use with the Trulife, so if anyone buys he can refer to that

I recently asked Chris about this after hearing a needle drop of his, and he's using Siemens throughout. This is because the ZYX cart on his Kronos is already so richly colored.
 

Ron Resnick

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Kedar, has the positive Zellaton experience made you want to consider a cone driver system like that?

Exactly how did the Zellaton differ and improve upon the many conventional dynamic driver speakers you have not cared for?
 

Ron Resnick

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" We also played around withe Schnerzinger tweaks, and when you turn them on, the highs go up, cleaner, and soundstage is more coherent. When you turn it off, it seems to collapse."

So, you heard the tweaks.

The Zellaton is outstanding. Room and setting is crucial. Audio Art must be very professional to get the sound you hear. My agent is a dealer for both Zellaton and Cessaro. He is still trying to get the bass right. I heard both and had an opportunity to choose.

Tang:)

Tang, so were the big Zellaton and the Cessaro your final two contenders? (That is interesting to me because I consider them to be such different speakers with very different sound.)
 

bonzo75

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Kedar, has the positive Zellaton experience made you want to consider a cone driver system like that?

Exactly how did the Zellaton differ and improve upon the many conventional dynamic driver speakers you have not cared for?

Ron, one day I am going to convert you, Marty, and Ruldoph to horns (since you guys are so resistant), then retire from audiophilia.

In the meanwhile, may I suggest Jadis for valve and FM for SS on your Pendragons. Budget aside, FM is at the top of my SS list now, definitely for phono and pre. I suspect the amps to be better than the others if required for an Apogee.

To your second question, Zellaton have possibly the best mids in cones, almost on par with a pure ribbon Apogee, at least when paired with the FM. I was not bothered by The Disparate Driver problem, which you can usually hear with all big cones unlike with an apogee (you can also hear it with the not so good horns). I cannot comment on what bass boom issues if any it would have in a smaller room, always a challenge for cones. Also, what would happen if you drove it with 200 or 400w instead of 75? But size and money constraints aside, if someone was in the market for a cone, they should take this. As per Gideon, Zellaton's essentially sound alike due to the same exact drivers and consistent application, and the Stage's at 80k are probably the Zellaton sweet-spot.
 
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Tango

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Tang, so were the big Zellaton and the Cessaro your final two contenders? (That is interesting to me because I consider them to be such different speakers with very different sound.)

I kept myself open when I was choosing speakers. My agent happened to have both Cessaro Beta (a little brother of Gamma) and Zellaton Ref. at his place for audition. The Zellaton was outstanding from midbass to high. The transparency is to the extreme with density too, but still a little light to my taste. I prefer great highs extension and transparency with darker tonality. The presentation is very different from Cessaro. The Beta surprised me more... and it was with just a tube integrated amp and a CD player. I also had a chance to listen to Cessaro Carmen (an Asian version of a Liszt with bigger woofer). In that room I didn’t like them at all...no where near what I hear in my room. I guess there are many variables involve in making the Cessaro really sings.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

bonzo75

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I kept myself open when I was choosing speakers. My agent happened to have both Cessaro Beta (a little brother of Gamma) and Zellaton Ref. at his place for audition. The Zellaton was outstanding from midbass to high. The transparency is to the extreme with density too, but still a little light to my taste. I prefer great highs extension and transparency with darker tonality. The presentation is very different from Cessaro. The Beta surprised me more... and it was with just a tube integrated amp and a CD player. I also had a chance to listen to Cessaro Carmen (an Asian version of a Liszt with bigger woofer). In that room I didn’t like them at all...no where near what I hear in my room. I guess there are many variables involve in making the Cessaro really sings.

Kind regards,
Tang

I didn't hear them as light, if you mean on the tonal density. What amp was that with? Or are you referring to lightness in the bass compared to your bass horns? Since you have auditioned the CH phono in your system, it would be good if you can get FM and see how it compares to your valve ones. Or maybe Gian can get a FM compare to his CH
 

Tango

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I didn't hear them as light, if you mean on the tonal density. What amp was that with? Or are you referring to lightness in the bass compared to your bass horns? Since you have auditioned the CH phono in your system, it would be good if you can get FM and see how it compares to your valve ones. Or maybe Gian can get a FM compare to his CH

You nailed it sir. The amp was a Soulution. Thats probably part of the reason why they sound less meat on the bone than the Cessaro with tube integrated. And by light I only meant in comparison to my preference.
I already have three phonos. I shall pass this honour to Don Gian.

Best,
Tang
 

analyzer

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Yeah... I recognize my old friend Fabrizio Baretta, manufacturer of "Faber's cables" in one photo, and consequently its top line AC cable "Fifth element" along with the power block, I do have a set of these in my system since 2015, they works very very very well and I'm happy that also Mr. Huber of FM enjoy partnering his amplifiers with them...
Marco
 

bonzo75

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You nailed it sir. The amp was a Soulution. Thats probably part of the reason why they sound less meat on the bone than the Cessaro with tube integrated. And by light I only meant in comparison to my preference.
I already have three phonos. I shall pass this honour to Don Gian.

Best,
Tang

Sorry, Ayon, EMT, which is the third? You returned the CH. You bought lamm?

Nah, Soulution will be a very different sound

Don gian is hilarious.
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron, one day I am going to convert you, Marty, and Ruldoph to horns (since you guys are so resistant), then retire from audiophilia.

In the meanwhile, may I suggest Jadis for valve and FM for SS on your Pendragons. Budget aside, FM is at the top of my SS list now, definitely for phono and pre. I suspect the amps to be better than the others if required for an Apogee.

To your second question, Zellaton have possibly the best mids in cones, almost on par with a pure ribbon Apogee, at least when paired with the FM. I was not bothered by The Disparate Driver problem, which you can usually hear with all big cones unlike with an apogee (you can also hear it with the not so good horns). I cannot comment on what bass boom issues if any it would have in a smaller room, always a challenge for cones. Also, what would happen if you drove it with 200 or 400w instead of 75? But size and money constraints aside, if someone was in the market for a cone, they should take this. As per Gideon, Zellaton's essentially sound alike due to the same exact drivers and consistent application, and the Stage's at 80k are probably the Zellaton sweet-spot.

You don’t have to convert me to horns –– I consider myself partially converted. If I listened primarily to jazz and classical there is no doubt I would have a horn system (Viva or Acapella or Cessaro).

I agree on Jadis -- the JA200 Mk. II is now my second top choice for amplifiers (behind only SET 833).

With the Zellaton Reference I assume you did not have any sense of that sonic artifact (to me) of “hyperfast“ sound that somehow troubled me at Munich two years ago?
 

bonzo75

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You don’t have to convert me to horns –– I consider myself partially converted. If I listened primarily to jazz and classical there is no doubt I would have a horn system (Viva or Acapella or Cessaro).

I agree on Jadis -- the JA200 Mk. II is now my second top choice for amplifiers (behind only SET 833).

With the Zellaton Reference I assume you did not have any sense of that sonic artifact (to me) of “hyperfast“ sound that somehow troubled me at Munich two years ago?

I did not like the Zellaton in Munich either. But then at Munich the small Stenheim sounded great in 2016, in 2014 the bigger model sounded superb, and it sounded awful last year, and the 4 tower one never sounds right. So at Munich if something sounds good it is good, else cannot say until we hear properly.

I am still skeptical of running SETs on 89db ribbon speakers, but there can always be exceptions like the Wavac or the AM, never heard, will be interesting. The more systems I hear, the more important that steady control and drive is for the midrange, and at least these smaller SETs by not controlling properly and inducing a colored harmonic seem to destroy it. They rock on horns, but they cannot seem to flow the music through bigger drivers and carry through a note or break through tuttis. It is ok to audition, but keep an open mind on the push pull and the SS.
 

jeff1225

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I kept myself open when I was choosing speakers. My agent happened to have both Cessaro Beta (a little brother of Gamma) and Zellaton Ref. at his place for audition. The Zellaton was outstanding from midbass to high. The transparency is to the extreme with density too, but still a little light to my taste. I prefer great highs extension and transparency with darker tonality. The presentation is very different from Cessaro. The Beta surprised me more... and it was with just a tube integrated amp and a CD player. I also had a chance to listen to Cessaro Carmen (an Asian version of a Liszt with bigger woofer). In that room I didn’t like them at all...no where near what I hear in my room. I guess there are many variables involve in making the Cessaro really sings.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang,
What model of Cessaro do you have?

Jeff
 

morricab

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I did not like the Zellaton in Munich either. But then at Munich the small Stenheim sounded great in 2016, in 2014 the bigger model sounded superb, and it sounded awful last year, and the 4 tower one never sounds right. So at Munich if something sounds good it is good, else cannot say until we hear properly.

I am still skeptical of running SETs on 89db ribbon speakers, but there can always be exceptions like the Wavac or the AM, never heard, will be interesting. The more systems I hear, the more important that steady control and drive is for the midrange, and at least these smaller SETs by not controlling properly and inducing a colored harmonic seem to destroy it. They rock on horns, but they cannot seem to flow the music through bigger drivers and carry through a note or break through tuttis. It is ok to audition, but keep an open mind on the push pull and the SS.

Having the exact BG drivers as the Pendragon (although shorter ones) on DIY hybrids (active xo from Accuphase), I had very good results with 30 watt SET on the ribbon in a 20 square meter room
 

Ron Resnick

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I did not like the Zellaton in Munich either. But then at Munich the small Stenheim sounded great in 2016, in 2014 the bigger model sounded superb, and it sounded awful last year, and the 4 tower one never sounds right. So at Munich if something sounds good it is good, else cannot say until we hear properly.

I am still skeptical of running SETs on 89db ribbon speakers, but there can always be exceptions like the Wavac or the AM, never heard, will be interesting. The more systems I hear, the more important that steady control and drive is for the midrange, and at least these smaller SETs by not controlling properly and inducing a colored harmonic seem to destroy it. They rock on horns, but they cannot seem to flow the music through bigger drivers and carry through a note or break through tuttis. It is ok to audition, but keep an open mind on the push pull and the SS.

It sounds like you might want to compare the Zellaton Reference to the similarly-sized Stenheim.

I think you may be thinking in terms of Apogee ribbon drivers. I think the BG driver is an easier load. Plus, even though a full-range signal goes to the panel amplifiers, the panels are going to present to the amplifiers only a load above about 200 Hz.

I am definitely keeping my mind open about high-power push-pull, hence my interest first in the Jadis JA200 Mk. II (whose measured output by the way is not much more than the 833 amplifiers) and then second in VTL Siegfried II, Audio Research 250 and 750 and VAC 450 iQ.
 

Audiocrack

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Ron, one day I am going to convert you, Marty, and Ruldoph to horns (since you guys are so resistant), then retire from audiophilia.

In the meanwhile, may I suggest Jadis for valve and FM for SS on your Pendragons. Budget aside, FM is at the top of my SS list now, definitely for phono and pre. I suspect the amps to be better than the others if required for an Apogee.

To your second question, Zellaton have possibly the best mids in cones, almost on par with a pure ribbon Apogee, at least when paired with the FM. I was not bothered by The Disparate Driver problem, which you can usually hear with all big cones unlike with an apogee (you can also hear it with the not so good horns). I cannot comment on what bass boom issues if any it would have in a smaller room, always a challenge for cones. Also, what would happen if you drove it with 200 or 400w instead of 75? But size and money constraints aside, if someone was in the market for a cone, they should take this. As per Gideon, Zellaton's essentially sound alike due to the same exact drivers and consistent application, and the Stage's at 80k are probably the Zellaton sweet-spot.

I suppose our WBF members don’t have to worry: very likely your retirement from audiophilia is still (very) far away. Unlike you (and Ron) I never heard any horn loudspeaker present classical music coherently and in a convincing way. For example most of the time the bass integration sounded quite awful to me.

But keep us informed about your horn adventures/experiences.
 

Tango

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Tang,
What model of Cessaro do you have?

Jeff

I have GammaII but with back load bass horns. They are comparable to the Beethoven. The Gammas are modular design, you can choose different bass horns sperately, while the Beethoven are more one piece. Cessaros are very well made with heavy composite material so no worry about termites. (My agent had one of the popular horns mentioned in WBF eaten by termites in his ware house. The wood they were made of also bent from moisture here in Thailand.) They are extremely heavy. My set weigh about two tons. Considerable patient, time and tuning are needed to make them sound right. I dont doubt at all when people say they sucked at show. My initial set up by Ralph himself sucked too tbh. Only after he came the second time, they become terrific.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

the sound of Tao

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Thanks again Ked for sharing your travels, great read. Some nice data points as well as travel points you are collecting along the way. The FM gear in particular sounds like it’s worth getting to hear eventually. Keep up the excellent work :)
 

rsorren1

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Ked, thanks for sharing your experience at AudioArts with FM Acoustics/Zellaton/Brinkman/Allarts/Le Son. I think you know I’ve heard this system a number of times; all except the Le Son. We share a love for classical music and the Beethoven Appassionata sonata by Kamiya on a direct to disc 45rpm vinyl is quite frankly the best piano recording I’ve ever heard too. The Zellaton Statement/FM/Brinkman/Allarts present the piano with realistic scale and with realistic dynamics. I’ve heard this system with the FM 411 MKII amp and once with the FM 711 amp. They obviously out-perform the FM 108 amps but the FM 108 are quite amazing in their own right. The FM 266 and 223 are world-class products to be sure. The Schnerzinger giga protectors are quite something too. I heard exactly the same things you heard turning them on/off/on relative to soundstage, openness of highs, etc. I documented my thoughts on all this in another WBF thread.
 
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