Independent Grounds

[Joe D]

Hey, what do you guys think of an independent ground? I would do like an 8 foot pole in the ground independent of house ground..just a thought...

 

[Mosin]

I know someone who purchased a heavy old architectural iron grate about three feet square, and buried it approximately eight feet deep. He put rock salt in the hole, so that it would corrode the grate enough to spread iron oxide around a bit. Extremely heavy copper was attached, and that runs inside to his listening room. He swears by it.

I have a six foot piece of railroad iron, and I am planning to do the same thing.

 

[Joe D]

Thanks I think it is a good idea to have it ..happy pounding Mosin

 

[Bill Hart]

I don't think code permits the system ground to be independent from the ground for the rest of your house; you can have an additional ground for the system set up (I do, in NY). I assume if you have an entirely separate electrical service to a building housing the system, you could have a ground array that is entirely independent of your household service. Others with more technical knowledge should chime in.

 

[Mosin]

Bill,

You are probably right. In my case, the additional ground would be mere inches from the main house ground, so I suppose they could share. The reason I would do it would be to get a fantastic ground, rather than an isolated one. Without a separate feed to the audio system, a truly independent ground isn't possible, anyway. However, the wire itself could be direct instead of linked in with the rest. That's something I would certainly do.

 

[Speedskater]

It must be April 1st again!

From Henry W. Ott's big new book:

3.1.7 Grounding Myths

More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering. The more common of these are as follows:

1. The earth is a low-impedance path for ground current. False, the impedance of the earth is orders of magnitude greater than the impedance of a copper conductor.
2. The earth is an equipotential. False, this is clearly not true by the result of (1 above).
3. The impedance of a conductor is determined by its resistance. False, what happened to the concept of inductive reactance?
4. To operate with low noise, a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground. False, because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. As a mater of fact, an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem. More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground that by connecting it to earth ground.
5. To reduce noise, an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod. False, in addition to being untrue, this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules).
6. An earth ground is unidirectional, with current only flowing into the ground. False, because current must flow in loops, any current that flows into the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else.
7. An isolated AC power receptacle is not grounded. False, the term “isolated” refers only to the method by which a receptacle is grounded, not if it is grounded.
8. A system designer can name ground conductors by the type of the current that they should carry (i.e., signal, power, lightning, digital, analog, quiet, noisy, etc.), and the electrons will comply and only flow in the appropriately designated conductors. Obviously false.

Henry W. Ott

 

[Speedskater]

Too much to quote! so see pages 1 to 8 of the Bill Whitlock paper:

UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/generic seminar.pdf

 

[Orb]

Although the idea is to create a clean technical/reference ground for the audio electronic gear and this does help, but it needs to be done correctly - separate to ground loop that Bill Whitlock paper is about (only a very small bit about technical ground in the paper).

Edit:
I would involve a building regulation certified electrician when doing this, making sure they understand the reason for clean earth and isolation, and how to apply this to a complete audio system chain, along with ensuring it is electrically safe (fault tolerance shock).
Cheers
Orb

 

[Speedskater]

A "clean technical/reference ground for the audio electronic gear" has nothing to do with connections to Mother Earth! That ground rod is all about thunder storms and power company high voltage accidents.

Mr. Bill Whitlock has been writing a large number of technical papers and articles for about 25 years. Many of them cover technical grounding and all are worth reading.

 

[Speedskater]

From the Middle Atlantic Power Paper:
http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf

 

[Joe D]

Thanks Speed you da man

 

[Joe D]

Thanks Orb i will check it out

 

[microstrip]

I know someone who purchased a heavy old architectural iron grate about three feet square, and buried it approximately eight feet deep. He put rock salt in the hole, so that it would corrode the grate enough to spread iron oxide around a bit. Extremely heavy copper was attached, and that runs inside to his listening room. He swears by it.

I have a six foot piece of railroad iron, and I am planning to do the same thing.

The critical properties in an earth ground are the area, depth and material type. IMHO railroad iron is not an optimum ground rod. Remember that usually oxides are not good conductors - good quality grounding rods are specially treated to avoid corrosion and have long term stability.

 

[Orb]

A "clean technical/reference ground for the audio electronic gear" has nothing to do with connections to Mother Earth! That ground rod is all about thunder storms and power company high voltage accidents.

Mr. Bill Whitlock has been writing a large number of technical papers and articles for about 25 years. Many of them cover technical grounding and all are worth reading.

Speedskater I know what a technical/reference ground is and its benefit thanks as I have had to be involved in their implementation a few times
If you notice I also mentioned consideration for isolation and safety earth, however the regulations and how to implement can vary country to country.
There is no myth about the benefits of creating a clean earth that connects to the technical/reference ground of audio products; this can be done in several ways.
But as I mentioned anyone considering this should employ a certified building regs electrician and the important of them understanding how "zero ground" works for audio products as they do use it as reference.

Thanks
Orb

 

[Orb]

The critical properties in an earth ground are the area, depth and material type. IMHO railroad iron is not an optimum ground rod. Remember that usually oxides are not good conductors - good quality grounding rods are specially treated to avoid corrosion and have long term stability.

Yeah agreed not how it is usually done.
Also for it to be of benefit one would need to measure it to ensure it works.

Joe, this gives a very basic understanding but shows why should involve electrician, while discussing Power Conditioning for sensitive rooms it also has context to audio due to noise and zero reference/ground:
hb008 Creating a Clean Earth connection for Power Conditioning
http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/hb/hb008.htm

hb022 Earthing power conditioners - 4 options
http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/hb/hb022.htm


Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Joe,
just to add.
Speedskater raises a good point about ground loops because this is a major issue IF what your doing is not done right, same can be said about safety earth and also shock.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Joe D]

Thanks Orb ..it seems that the benefits do not outweigh the risks... i will ask electrician and bottom line is i do not want to void insurance if something goes wrong

 

[Orb]

Thanks Orb ..it seems that the benefits do not outweigh the risks... i will ask electrician and bottom line is i do not want to void insurance if something goes wrong

Just make sure they have experience in understanding the benefits of a "clean earth", such as electricians that work on studios, or installing power conditioners for a room requiring low noise,etc.
You would be surprised how many electricians have been noted in screwing up a music studio noise floor/causing hum-ground loop/etc.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Speedskater]

I think that much of the confusion comes from the differences between British power distribution and power distribution in the Americas. The British system Neutral & Earth are separate wires/cores, in the US system Neutral & Ground are the very same wire/core. I have read that newer British system are different than older systems.

I'm not familiar with either of the British systems or 'Independent Earths' so I'll go with what Tony Waldron writes:

Independent grounds

The use of independent earth/ground electrodes is now understood to create a safety hazard. During a lightning strike or when earth fault conditions occur in medium and high voltage power distribution, independent soil electrodes can take on very different voltages, with transients exceeding 10,000 volts. This can cause electrical shock, showering arcs, toxic fumes, smoke, equipment damage, personnel burns and serious fire. This type of bonding is also very poor for interference control purposes.
While it is unlikely (these days) to come across this type of grounding conductor topology, I have included this short explanation of why independent grounds are a major problem, because I have had to face this type of system on a few occasions. The large potential differences between different ground points in the system are not only dangerous, but cause enormous problems in controlling low frequency noise and are completely useless for controlling high frequency interference.

A Practical Interference Free Audio System (Part 1)
By Tony Waldron, Technical Manager, CADAC Electronics PLC
http://www.nutwooduk.co.uk/archive/Old_Archive/020918.htm

 

[vinylphilemag]

I think that much of the confusion comes from the differences between British power distribution and power distribution in the Americas. The British system Neutral & Earth are separate wires/cores, in the US system Neutral & Ground are the very same wire/core. I have read that newer British system are different than older systems.

Well, that explains a LOT of my confusion here! Being from the UK (and therefore used to how their mains are wired), house wiring on this side of the pond always confused me a little. Now I know why!