So Rex, are you talking about the new cable runs to end devices or cable from panel to sub panel near room?
Suggestions for new house dedicated power set-up
- Thread starter mauidj
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@mauidj do you have in-field feedback on those outlets with 8 gauge wire? I ask because 10 ga. is a challenging application to land well.
I am just hooking up a couple of Shinyatas with #10 stranded THHN and it sucks, but does work.
8ga would not be possible, except perhaps with a crimp-on lug. I even considered it for the #10.
Checking the Furutech site, it notes 4mm (12ga), which is code and typical.
Not saying it doesn't work, but it may need mods. Just calling this out. I recognize you're a thorough dude, so just trying to be an audio buddy here. Back to my pen now.
I am just hooking up a couple of Shinyatas with #10 stranded THHN and it sucks, but does work.
8ga would not be possible, except perhaps with a crimp-on lug. I even considered it for the #10.
Checking the Furutech site, it notes 4mm (12ga), which is code and typical.
Not saying it doesn't work, but it may need mods. Just calling this out. I recognize you're a thorough dude, so just trying to be an audio buddy here. Back to my pen now.
I spoke to the guys at Shunyata and they told me their outlets were good for #10. The Furutech sites shows wire up to #8.
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...yes, I see. Good pic. Different info than I found below the pic:
- Specified for wire diameters of 4mm (set screw)
- Dimensions: 104.0 mm (L) x 47.2 mm (W) x 28.0 mm (H)
- Total attention to detail and build quality extends right down to a specially designed patent-pending conductor pressure plate that increases contact area
- Furutech spade terminal FP-209 recommended for 10 AWG wire
Carry on, sir.
- Specified for wire diameters of 4mm (set screw)
- Dimensions: 104.0 mm (L) x 47.2 mm (W) x 28.0 mm (H)
- Total attention to detail and build quality extends right down to a specially designed patent-pending conductor pressure plate that increases contact area
- Furutech spade terminal FP-209 recommended for 10 AWG wire
Carry on, sir.
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I actually have just had a thought about this some more and decided to go with 2 runs of #8 for the Power amp and the Denali PC ( SACD, Pre Amp and Streamer) with #10 to the other two outlets where I will use 2 older PCs for accessories like a router, Mac mini (Roon), ethernet switch, SME motor control and Soundsmith SG amp. That way I can use the 2 Shunyata outlets I already have. And thus save about $1100. I cant imagine that I will hear any difference using #8 and Furutech outlets for those accessories.
...maybe buy an outlet and see what it will really do? Man, you would hate to have a mile of #8 and have to then pig-tail those outlets.
I was able to modify a heavy-use receptacle to take 6gauge, but it was Dremel work and some goofing around. Lug may have been better?
I was able to modify a heavy-use receptacle to take 6gauge, but it was Dremel work and some goofing around. Lug may have been better?
Saving is always good! Can't imagine that would be a compromise there, I'm with you.
That sounds like a good idea but I need to decide now as we will be running the wire as soon as the roof goes on.
I will call someone about the Furutech outlets and see if I can get some accurate info
I will call someone about the Furutech outlets and see if I can get some accurate info
I would temper your expectations about the sonic benefit of over-the-top house rewiring. I've done two houses with special wiring and the improvements, while audible, are not really significant. At best, special heavy-gauge wiring and outlets just avoid adding new distortion (EMI, RFI, power factor etc.) to what is coming into your house. And unless the shielding on your house wiring is good, you will in fact just add more distortion riding on your power lines since every inch of unshielded cable acts as a further antenna for picking up electrically and magnetically radiated garbage. The gauge of the wire and nature of the outlets and plates does nothing to combat this.
This "clean power" issue may not matter much sonically anyway. See the analysis and measurements by Amir at this link. While Amir's argument seems strong, this is not what I and most others hear.
Having experimented with a lot of power cleaners/filters inserted just upstream or parallel with the audio equipment (including regenerators like the PS Audio Power Plants), I've found only a couple of products which I thought made significant audible improvements. Almost all of them will change the sound, but different is not usually better. The two units I found which I believe truly improved the sound are both out of production: the MIT Z-1 Stabilizer and the P.I. Audio UberBuss.
By far the most sonically important things you can do without spending any money with respect to power lines is to turn off and disconnect offending devices in your home when you are seriously listening. Offenders include most electronic devices, especially computers, mobile devices, and BlueTooth devices. To get a base line for how good your audio system can possibly sound if power inside your home is maximally cleaned up, try flipping off all the circuit breakers in your home except those powering your audio equipment. You may be amazed. THAT is the sound you want to approach as closely as you can.
Also, make sure that if you use dedicated circuits for your audio gear, that all the circuits you use are operating from the same phase of electrical power. In the electrical box, your busses will either be organized so that circuits using the same phase are horizontally oriented or vertically oriented. Physical inspection of the busses will tell you which way they are oriented, as will any device wired for 220 volts which will use both phases of the current.
On this general topic, see my discussion from a few years back in my thread called "My Clean Power Adventures."
This "clean power" issue may not matter much sonically anyway. See the analysis and measurements by Amir at this link. While Amir's argument seems strong, this is not what I and most others hear.
Having experimented with a lot of power cleaners/filters inserted just upstream or parallel with the audio equipment (including regenerators like the PS Audio Power Plants), I've found only a couple of products which I thought made significant audible improvements. Almost all of them will change the sound, but different is not usually better. The two units I found which I believe truly improved the sound are both out of production: the MIT Z-1 Stabilizer and the P.I. Audio UberBuss.
By far the most sonically important things you can do without spending any money with respect to power lines is to turn off and disconnect offending devices in your home when you are seriously listening. Offenders include most electronic devices, especially computers, mobile devices, and BlueTooth devices. To get a base line for how good your audio system can possibly sound if power inside your home is maximally cleaned up, try flipping off all the circuit breakers in your home except those powering your audio equipment. You may be amazed. THAT is the sound you want to approach as closely as you can.
Also, make sure that if you use dedicated circuits for your audio gear, that all the circuits you use are operating from the same phase of electrical power. In the electrical box, your busses will either be organized so that circuits using the same phase are horizontally oriented or vertically oriented. Physical inspection of the busses will tell you which way they are oriented, as will any device wired for 220 volts which will use both phases of the current.
On this general topic, see my discussion from a few years back in my thread called "My Clean Power Adventures."
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Since you are not pinching pennies you might want to look at the Audience Hidden Treasure in wall wiring which is 10 awg (more than enough from sub panel to outlet). Haven't tried the Furutech frame/cover but the similar Oyaide WPC-Z aluminum frame with carbon fiber cover added a measure of clarity and quiet to the sound of my R-1 wall duplex. Note that I've heard from colleagues who use it that tightening/loosening the screws on the Furutech carbon fiber cover changes the sound.
FYI:
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You have to use a 2 gang box with a single duplex and blank on the other side to land a #8 on a duplex. You have to take a screw driver blade and evenly split the strands to go under the clamp/s.
#8 is going to sound very fast and hot. Almost tilted up and trebly. Maybe for a.subwoofer only. Its not legal as no duplex is rated for #8.
#10 stranded compared to solid #10 is going to sound a little heavier and possibly some haze. Solid will be a little quicker and cleaner. Stranded on hot horns can tame them a little. I think thats why DDK tells people to use it.
Military spec silver coated stranded is very heav sounding. Almost wolly. It was refreshing to replace it with solid #10 romex. I neverdid that again.
Oyaide #10 is the best sounding production wire I have heard. If your in Europe or Asia, use it. Not legal in the US or Canada. Its solid #10 with a copper foil shield jacket. A very good shield against all noise. I terminate it only on the panel side. You could use a metal box and a isolated ground duplex to land both sides.
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Subpanels. I spoke to Dan Dagostino and he said no amp he makes requires more than a #10.
In a very general sense, the maximum available fault current of a #10 wire fed by a standard 25kva residential utiltiy transformer that is 150 feet from the house and a duplex 30 feet from the panel could let through about 3000 to 5000 amps of current in a bolted fault situation. In reality the CB or fuse would trip in about half a cycle at a much lower current. That a lot of power. You don't want or need #8. Its an unnesaary can of worms. And has a sonic signature like anything else. It would be more technically correct to reduce termination points and eliminate as much aluminum from the path as possible.
Never ever land a wire on a duplex, then go 5 feet, 10 feet down the wall to another duplex, then another duplex. You will get a humming ground issue.
This is how I like to land a double duplex in a wall. Of course its deoxed, Teflon taped, then vinyl tape when complete. This is not easy to do. You have to get everything to length and placed where you want it before clamping the Ilsco C crimp. If you man handle it.(I mean, They handle it!!!), you will spin the tag wire in the crimp.and loosen the connection.
Use your imagination and this is how to land 2 x #10 branch wires under a single AFCI in a panel. You could even stack more tag ends if you wanted. This gets rid of eddy current from overlapping emf fields when.2.wires are under a wire nut facing the opposite direction of each other. It's just anal stuff I experiment and listen too. Its NEC compliment too.
Use your imagination and this is how to land 2 x #10 branch wires under a single AFCI in a panel. You could even stack more tag ends if you wanted. This gets rid of eddy current from overlapping emf fields when.2.wires are under a wire nut facing the opposite direction of each other. It's just anal stuff I experiment and listen too. Its NEC compliment too.
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Good info Rex. I'll stick with 10G. Your last sentence...how to wire multiple outlets then along one wall? In your pic above, you have the wiring for two outlets. So are you saying that at most, get two outlets only per 10g run? Is it better to use some kind out outlet strip for multiple devices?
Lots of really interesting info here guys. Thank you so much.
It is obvious that there is no one solution to this issue.
I am also starting to think that simple is better.
Many of these products obviously change the sound but in ways I'm not sure I'm looking for.
And then combining the various alternatives brings even more uncertainty. I dont want to be messing with this ad nauseam.
I am now rethinking my situation and will probably go with sold core #10 from the sub to all the dedicated outlets.
(I originally chose #8 based on this paper by Vince Calbo of MSB. )
audiophilefoundation.org
This also means I dont need to spend the huge bucks that Furutech demands. More likely stay with the Shunyata (or similar) outlets I have been using.
It's going to save me a bundle and make the electrician's job so much easier.
We dont have unlimited cash for this and we should be putting our money into the house not esoteric audio upgrades.
We have been living in rental properties for the past 4 years and the wiring in both has been pretty bad...but I still enjoyed the sound from my system. So going to our new house with dedicated circuits should be a huge upgrade that I'm sure will scratch the itch.
It is obvious that there is no one solution to this issue.
I am also starting to think that simple is better.
Many of these products obviously change the sound but in ways I'm not sure I'm looking for.
And then combining the various alternatives brings even more uncertainty. I dont want to be messing with this ad nauseam.
I am now rethinking my situation and will probably go with sold core #10 from the sub to all the dedicated outlets.
(I originally chose #8 based on this paper by Vince Calbo of MSB. )
Vince Galbo of MSB Technology - How to Get a Perfect 10 For The Power to Your Stereo - Audiophile Foundation
Audio and Video Wall Power Line Installation Procedures updated 3/30/2022 by Vince Galbo of MSB Click on the link below to read the entire article in PDF format, or scroll down to read below. Dedicated line installation 3 2022 Audio and Video Wall Power L
This also means I dont need to spend the huge bucks that Furutech demands. More likely stay with the Shunyata (or similar) outlets I have been using.
It's going to save me a bundle and make the electrician's job so much easier.
We dont have unlimited cash for this and we should be putting our money into the house not esoteric audio upgrades.
We have been living in rental properties for the past 4 years and the wiring in both has been pretty bad...but I still enjoyed the sound from my system. So going to our new house with dedicated circuits should be a huge upgrade that I'm sure will scratch the itch.
It will be gigantic.Lots of really interesting info here guys. Thank you so much.
It is obvious that there is no one solution to this issue.
I am also starting to think that simple is better.
Many of these products obviously change the sound but in ways I'm not sure I'm looking for.
And then combining the various alternatives brings even more uncertainty. I dont want to be messing with this ad nauseam.
I am now rethinking my situation and will probably go with sold core #10 from the sub to all the dedicated outlets.
(I originally chose #8 based on this paper by Vince Calbo of MSB. )
Vince Galbo of MSB Technology - How to Get a Perfect 10 For The Power to Your Stereo - Audiophile Foundation
Audio and Video Wall Power Line Installation Procedures updated 3/30/2022 by Vince Galbo of MSB Click on the link below to read the entire article in PDF format, or scroll down to read below. Dedicated line installation 3 2022 Audio and Video Wall Power L
This also means I dont need to spend the huge bucks that Furutech demands. More likely stay with the Shunyata (or similar) outlets I have been using.
It's going to save me a bundle and make the electrician's job so much easier.
We dont have unlimited cash for this and we should be putting our money into the house not esoteric audio upgrades.
We have been living in rental properties for the past 4 years and the wiring in both has been pretty bad...but I still enjoyed the sound from my system. So going to our new house with dedicated circuits should be a huge upgrade that I'm sure will scratch the itch.
I don't have any experience with any power strip outside what I have made for myself.
I think making multi outlets in the wall with a C crimp is very difficult. Can you use a wire nut? Sure. Its not the end of the world. I sus out the maximum detail when I can. I have no solid proof a wire nut is sonically different than a C crimp.
Not NEC, but I have also taken a solid copper ilsco terminal ground bar and cut it down to the number of holes I need. I file all edges smooth. I then bring the feed wire in one end and jumpers out the other to the duplex. Technically these bars are generally rated for 2 wires per hole. So 2 holes would be 1 feed in and 3 out. You can more aggressively handle this configuration. And you could feed 3 duplex on the wall. Plenty for any one circuit.
A decent power strip that is just a power strip cost about $500 and up. That would get 1 to maybe 2 more circuits to the room. I like a minimum 3 circuits. Amps, Analog, Digital. Subs would add more.
3 Circuits ton3 duplex will power Pre and phono pre, server and DAC, 2 monoblocks. Although if you have money for monoblocks, put 2 circuits for the amps. One for each mono. There is a very good chance if you listen carefully you will hear the difference.
Get a role of romex. Pull off 2 strips that get from the panel to the rack. Mark the end so you know the orientation on the role. The lettering also tells this. Land the 2 wires on the same breaker and the neutral and grounds in the same hole in the neutral and ground bar. Attach the load end to the exact same type duplex of the same age. 2 fresh never used duplex. One of these wires is head to tail, the other tail to head as seen on the role. Opposite direction on the labeling. Now plug your amp into one or the other and go back and forth many times. Listen carefully. Use music with a dynamic passage. One direction should sound a little more dynamic and clean. The other a little muted and maybe a slight veil. You have now grain oriented the role. Pull all wire off the role in the direction you sellect for installation.
The 'not NEC' remark, very clever! I may try this instead of a power strip.
Do you use the silver paste like mentioned in the MSB article?
Thanks Rex.
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