Stillpoints Ultra Vs - Wilson X1/Grand Slamms

[Jazzhead]

By the way, I can say this. I am getting one of these types of equipment...it does what I have not heard any other piece do. If you are looking to absolutely maintain the voice of your existing system (I am)...and still drive absolute purity, purity, purity into your system by lowering noise floor, getting rid of grunge, hash, etc... (I am)...AND you have already done what you can on isolation and power conditioning...try the Entreq or the Tripoint...they do something different and it is still better than many of the other noise-floor-lowering techniques (Halcyonics, balanced power, dedicated lines, etc).

And this not from me but from 8 other owners who have far far greater time, money invested in isolation and power conditioning than I (think dedicated power, individual lines, balanced power, SOTA power conditioning, Halcyonics active isolation for every component)...and these guys all would not do without their Entreq or their Tripoint Troy. 'Nuff said for now.

Thanks for the feedback . Drop in noise floor was an improvement I expected , solidity to instruments is exciting to hear. If the Tellus convinces you , as it seems to have done it would be a real world alternative to the Tripoint , which is a lot dearer . I also read an RG article , where he grounded the two metal posts of the rack , thus creating a faraday cage effect blocking RFI. Look forward to your thoughts once you unplug it .

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jazzhead, apparently the Tellus Faraday cage effect involving the rack is only applicable with the Stillpoints rack, not any other. Don't know the reasons, maybe the S'pts rack has an earthing function itself. Btw, I'm the guy who bought Entreq to Lloyd's attention. What I particularly value, above and beyond Entreq's quite unique improvements in my system, is that dealing with Fraser from Kog Audio in the UK is a diametrically different experience to dealing with Miguel of Tripoint. Fraser is a true gentleman, no hint of hard sell, just infectious enthusiasm. Rare in the high end in my experience. The price differential is quite handy too.
Now, in role reversal, Lloyd is encouraging me to reconsider my reticence to investigating S'pts Ultra 5s.
After many trials of top racks, in my room at any rate I never got much extra mileage with Grand Prix, HRS etc over my low key Base 5 tier. That is until I heard the Symposium Isis. Now even this wasn't night and day (unlike all the positive upgrades I've made re power ie 4kVA balanced transformer/Entreq grounding - both phenomenal), but I did value a layer of extra grunge removed and ability to keep my EXTREMELY sensitive-to-level linear tracking arm totally stable.
It seems that the ball bearing/magnetic isolation concept really performs.
Recently I tried an Accurion i4 active platform, as sota as it gets, as it should be for £7000/$12000 PER component, for my tt, and again impressive but not night and day better than my Isis.
I'm drawing the conclusion that isolation in my room nowhere near as critical as addressing power.
My q is, are there any Stillpts Ultra 5 users out there who are familiar with Symposium, or vice versa, and can they provide a considered description of how they rate against each other. I'm v tempted to go down the Rollerblock Module RMK route for each component, and instinctively feel rack isolation via Isis and component isolation via Rollerblock should surely be up there at least with Ultra 5s.

 

[LL21]

Jazzhead, apparently the Tellus Faraday cage effect involving the rack is only applicable with the Stillpoints rack, not any other. Don't know the reasons, maybe the S'pts rack has an earthing function itself. Btw, I'm the guy who bought Entreq to Lloyd's attention. What I particularly value, above and beyond Entreq's quite unique improvements in my system, is that dealing with Fraser from Kog Audio in the UK is a diametrically different experience to dealing with Miguel of Tripoint. Fraser is a true gentleman, no hint of hard sell, just infectious enthusiasm. Rare in the high end in my experience. The price differential is quite handy too.
Now, in role reversal, Lloyd is encouraging me to reconsider my reticence to investigating S'pts Ultra 5s.
After many trials of top racks, in my room at any rate I never got much extra mileage with Grand Prix, HRS etc over my low key Base 5 tier. That is until I heard the Symposium Isis. Now even this wasn't night and day (unlike all the positive upgrades I've made re power ie 4kVA balanced transformer/Entreq grounding - both phenomenal), but I did value a layer of extra grunge removed and ability to keep my EXTREMELY sensitive-to-level linear tracking arm totally stable.
It seems that the ball bearing/magnetic isolation concept really performs.
Recently I tried an Accurion i4 active platform, as sota as it gets, as it should be for £7000/$12000 PER component, for my tt, and again impressive but not night and day better than my Isis.
I'm drawing the conclusion that isolation in my room nowhere near as critical as addressing power.
My q is, are there any Stillpts Ultra 5 users out there who are familiar with Symposium, or vice versa, and can they provide a considered description of how they rate against each other. I'm v tempted to go down the Rollerblock Module RMK route for each component, and instinctively feel rack isolation via Isis and component isolation via Rollerblock should surely be up there at least with Ultra 5s.

You may well have an inert floor and racking system with the Symposium...I cannot say. But I have observed that many find surprisingly different things with their TT...no uniformly ringing endorsement of any particular isolation method. By contrast, I tend to find a much more substantial % of positive responses from those trying the Ultra 5s under speakers or under preamps/amps/power supply units. Just my two cents and observations, SpiritofM...not a tabulated poll.

In fact, I do not know anyone who has tried Ultras or SS under their speakers who has not kept them. I can think of about 10 who have, and each has kept them. Nearly the same with preamps and amps. YMMV.

 

[Jazzhead]

Spiritofmusic... good to hear on the Entreq , thanks . Would you happen to have any experience with the Tripoint Troy , which by all reports is supposedly the standard as far as grounding units go . It would be interesting to gauge the effectiveness of the Tellus v/s the Troy . Are the improvements you have noted in your rig , the same as those reported by Lloyd , a lowering of the noise floor and enhanced tonal density ?

Am afraid that , I do not have anything to report on the Symposium products , but the Stillpoints I can tell you about . My base rack is the Finite Elememte Pagode Master Ref mounted on their Cerabase footers . As things stood, all the components within are mounted on Stillpoints Ultra SS , except for my transport which has well a sorted isolation incorporated in it's design , my speakers untreated ,used their supplied Black Diamond Racing footers.

I only recently completed floating my entire chain on Ultras , by installing the U5's under my speakers . The results have been staggering , more caused by the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts . Most obvious is the perceived sense of speed accompanied by greater rhythmic flow , dense polychromatic conundrums laughingly unravelled with tonal colours intact , with no wavering of images in the stage . While at the same time , my rig sounding in a more relaxed state, with the sense of having a greater reserve .

Most heartily recommended , give them a try , they in all probability will not be coming off .

 

[LL21]

Spiritofmusic... good to hear on the Entreq , thanks . Would you happen to have any experience with the Tripoint Troy , which by all reports is supposedly the standard as far as grounding units go . It would be interesting to gauge the effectiveness of the Tellus v/s the Troy . Are the improvements you have noted in your rig , the same as those reported by Lloyd , a lowering of the noise floor and enhanced tonal density ?

Am afraid that , I do not have anything to report on the Symposium products , but the Stillpoints I can tell you about . My base rack is the Finite Elememte Pagode Master Ref mounted on their Cerabase footers . As things stood, all the components within are mounted on Stillpoints Ultra SS , except for my transport which has well a sorted isolation incorporated in it's design , my speakers untreated ,used their supplied Black Diamond Racing footers.

I only recently completed floating my entire chain on Ultras , by installing the U5's under my speakers . The results have been staggering , more caused by the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts . Most obvious is the perceived sense of speed accompanied by greater rhythmic flow , dense polychromatic conundrums laughingly unravelled with tonal colours intact , with no wavering of images in the stage . While at the same time , my rig sounding in a more relaxed state, with the sense of having a greater reserve .

Most heartily recommended , give them a try , they in all probability will not be coming off .

Hi Jazzhead,

Good to know! I have floated the system as well, just not all Stillpoints. Maybe something to consider...some day. Every single box but one is floated...not all Stillpoints though, some is HRS M3 or nimbus/couplers (Amp and Sub are Auralex isolation platforms)...and all components have a damping plate on top (the amp and sub are also mass damped as well). It does make a big, big difference.

the only box which sits directly on my rack is the Transport PSU...I am tempted to try...!

As for Tripoint, I have only ever found 2 references to a shoot-out or comparison on the net or in my discussions with owners. Audio Technique in Hong Kong had 3-4 editors listen to Troy...3 bought Troy and 1 bought Entreq. That last one has [apparently] since changed over to Troy. I have seen elsewhere in an Asian audio site a translation of a post by someone who did a shoot-out in his system of the 2 grounding units, and preferred Troy.

Having heard both, but not in same system, both are great. Both do what they say they do...and extremely well. I am told Entreq is now coming out with a higher version of their Silver Tellus...more silver effectively...and also more costly....rumoured 3x-4x the price of the Silver Tellus. Is that Entreq pursuing a high-end 'as much as the market will bear' pricing strategy or really delivering an even greater product? Hopefully, it is the latter. If so, that would place it in same price bracket as Tripoint Troy (now in an SE edition which is by ALL accounts i have managed to contact far better).

 

[Jazzhead]

Hi Lloyd , you should definitely try lifting your PSU , at times the last piece is like flicking ON the switch , as it was in my case with the U5's under my speakers . My barometer for the Entreq will soar , if you decide to keep it .So do keep us posted . Yes the guys at AE (HKG) are raving about the Signature Troy , even having coined out worldly terms like "resolution of the soul" in describing it's effect , not just plain resolution mind you.... Definitely bears more investigation, yes it does .

 

[LL21]

Hi Lloyd , you should definitely try lifting your PSU , at times the last piece is like flicking ON the switch , as it was in my case with the U5's under my speakers . My barometer for the Entreq will soar , if you decide to keep it .So do keep us posted . Yes the guys at AE (HKG) are raving about the Signature Troy , even having coined out worldly terms like "resolution of the soul" in describing it's effect , not just plain resolution mind you.... Definitely bears more investigation, yes it does .

Wow...I am flattered that you would consider my opinion so seriously. I seek only to call it like I see it (for myself and my ears). I also try to stay truthful but also positive...constructive criticism yes, but never overtly negative (unless extreme circumstances) as I'd rather just say nothing at that point.

In any event, I have some observations about Tripont having heard it and spoken with Miguel in the past some time ago.

1. He is very outspoken about his products...it can be interpreted in different ways by different people and its not to everyone's style...but when you actually get on the phone with him...he is incredibly passionate, accommodating and generous with his time. When I spoke with him some time ago...he was very very helpful.
2. He strikes me as the serious OTT personality type...everything is about that insane level of commitment, build quality, materials, etc. I cannot speak to whats inside...but looking at the outside, I admit he does beautiful work and takes pride in it...which is often a good 'hand signal' to me of a true craftsman (not a con artist).
3. I have heard the original Tripoint Troy at AE in Hong Kong...and I heard them remove 1 of 7-8 grounding wires. And there was a clear and distinct 'haze' which came across the soundstage. And you should know AE have dedicated separate power lines, full power conditioning, cable elevators, room conditioning, insane levels of EVERYTHING. While you cannot throw money at ANY problem and solve it...when you know what you are doing, and are truly knowledgeable (which they are)...and have a near-unlimited budget, a lot of incredible things can happen...and at AE they did. So when only 1 Tripoint Grounding wire removed added that haze, I admit it was quite startling.

Interim Conclusion

I have had 'Grounding Unit' on my long term list since hearing the Tripoint in 2012...that should say something. Now there are two in my mind: Entreq Silver Tellus and Tripoint Troy SE. Plus Entreq's new flagship which is apparently coming soon.

My bottom line is that I would recommend that either is absolutely worth trying for even the most SOTA of the SOTA systems. I don't say that often. I am fortunate to own HRS, Artesania, Auralex and Stillpoints (and have tried many others but never bought)...but I started only one dedicated thread about Stillpoints Ultra 5s (and my Wilsons) here on WBF...because (for me) they are special. Fortunately, it seems many owners agree and have posted on that thread...and some even bought after that thread and since posted similar positives. I hope my observations about these two Grounding Units can be equally helpful to others out there. I would put either Entreq or Tripoint SOTA Grounding Unit in that same 'special category'. What it does is very very cool.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just to add my 2 cents. Yes Jazzhead, my thoughts chime precisely with Lloyd's. I love his description of a stillness in the air/acoustic engendered by the Silver Tellus that notes emerge from/decay into unwaveringly. Almost I imagine like getting rid of the heathaze that you experience during a hot day in the desert. My description was of notes being carved out of the air.
For me this has been an evolution of the system improvements I've been trying to achieve for a long time - moving away from belt drive tt to direct rim drive tt and pivoted arm to air bearing linear tracking arm and Straingauge cart resulting in unwavering, rock solid and neutral analogue, 4kVA balanced power dropping the noise floor so far below what my Burmester conditioner produced, and Symposium Isis isolation really removing a fine level of hash. Entreq is just enhancing this, and bringing something new to the party.
Re a 4x pricier Silver Tellus. Hmm...if it's at the same price level as Tripoint Troy, then I would only go ahead and buy after a direct a-b btwn the two. Difficult in the UK, since Miguel doesn't trade here.
In the upgrade game, I've learnt you have to step off at some stage. The standard Silver Tellus gives me so much, I don't crave stepping up. My 'cognitive ease' is fully in operation, with the Silver Tellus as is, I really enjoy the message w/out worrying about the medium. My only real avenue of upgrade now is getting a quality cable loom from one maker (Sablon recc'd by Lloyd) and aiming for a total industrial overkill grade of balanced transformer (Westwick pro-studio 8kVA unit)
Despite Lloyd's defense of Miguel, I'm really wary of the overselling of anything, and he is badly guilty of this IMHO. I don't have any doubt his products are the real deal, but when I'm told that his Orion conditioner could support an apartment block in Hong Kong with 250 individual high end systems, all maxxed out in SQ as a result of Orion, well in advance of a dedicated 10kVA balanced transformer like EquiTech to one system, let alone 250, I'm naturally detererred by the sheer absurdity of the claim.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I meant to add that Miguel says ONE Orion would break no sweat supplying 250+ high end rigs, and balanced power, no matter how bullet proof, can NEVER compete, even just with the ONE rig. Grr!

 

[Jazzhead]

Just in Case you need a special Ground Wire

 

[LL21]

Hey Jazzhead,

Funny you should post this. I read that the Editor of Audio Technique in Asia has a Tripoint Troy at home...and uses special Siltechs for the grounding cables instead of the Tripoints...do you think he is using these?

Tripoints grounding wires has spades on either end which means you need to connect to a grounding screw. By contrast, Entreq uses special adaptors that go around RCA jacks on the basis that nearly all RCAs input/outputs are grounded to the chassis...much more convenient (at least for me since both Zanden and CJ have RCA jacks).

In addition to the convenience of the Siltech RCA outputs, I have heard good things about their Double Empress cabling...as well as how expensive they are!

 

[rockitman]

another use for stillpoints. I am using an LP1 on my tonearm armboard. It added more snap and clarity if I were to describe it. The puck sits low enough to not affect the tonearm motion (it clears it).

 

[LL21]

Thanks, Christian...Have one component (Transport PSU) sitting on top of 4" thick birch ply on top of 1.5" thick slab of slate...I would normally consider that 'floating'...except that my TA Ref Power Conditioner is also on this section of the rack and when I put Ultra 5s underneath...well...you know the rest of that story!!! So now I am thinking take the HRS nimbus/couplers from under my GAT and place them under the Transport PSU...and get Ultra 5s for the CJ. Ugghhhh...

 

[Jazzhead]

Yes indeed, these are the Siltechs he uses . In fact Siltech developed their Double Crown Ground wires in consultation with Audio Technique . Given their polluted earth environment , caused by dwellings in close proximity , grounding units are de riguer in most set-ups . Audio Technique uses Entreq in their office set-up and the Editor uses the Tripoint at his residence . Below are the Siltech prototypes sent for evaluation .

 

[Jazzhead]

 

[LL21]

Thanks, Jazzhead. Do you have any idea how Audio Technique ranks the Entreq Silver Tellus vs the Tripoint Troy? Entreq is releasing a new upgraded Silver Tellus or something shortly. And Tripoint now has their Tripoint Troy SE. I love the Entreq Silver Tellus I am auditioning now.

I have emailed Audio Technique for advice on how they compare. Those who are investigating (a few of us right now)...are trying to rank these: Silver Tellus, new Entreq, Tripoint Troy, Tripoint Troy SE. But they are difficult to find for audition and then have in one system. hence the pursuit of Audio Technique's views.

 

[Jazzhead]

Well from feedback that the Troy Signature is top of the heap . It is in my opinion a pretty irrelevant comparison , given the difference in pricing .I would say , the Silver Tellus is the sane path to trod . The new Tellus , is actually an add-on unit to the Silver Tellus , cumbersome that .... more boxes to site . Have you tried disconnecting it to check whether the noise, permeates the sonic stage . A Tripoint original that has popped up on AGon , have a look if it tickles your fancy ... Cheers !

 

[LL21]

Well from feedback that the Troy Signature is top of the heap . It is in my opinion a pretty irrelevant comparison , given the difference in pricing .I would say , the Silver Tellus is the sane path to trod . The new Tellus , is actually an add-on unit to the Silver Tellus , cumbersome that .... more boxes to site . Have you tried disconnecting it to check whether the noise, permeates the sonic stage . A Tripoint original that has popped up on AGon , have a look if it tickles your fancy ... Cheers !

Hi...not yet, though I will this week when I return it to dealer. I am told once you disconnect, it can take while to settle back in...as evidenced by the changes that have occurred since we first hooked it up. Thus, I want to get to know it well 'as is' before I take it out. Because once I do, I have to wait again to get it back. I will post once this has happened.

That said, we did take one of 9 grounding cables out of the Tripoint Troy and I heard a haze come over the system...I would say my estimate at the time was similar to changing an interconnect from, say, Transp Ref XL to Audioquest Emerald (the 15-yr old one that I still use for cable tv hookup to the system). Great tonal balance, but fuzzy for sure in comparison. And that was only 1 of 9 grounding cables AE was using at the time to connect to the 3 mono Tidal amps, dual-chassis ref preamp and the Stahl-Tek digital stuff.

 

[LL21]

So because I have decided to try independently 'floating' the final component (which is currently stacked between bottom of 6" thick rack...birchply and slate), I have asked to hear 3 Ultra 5s under it...the PSU of the Transport. I would never think it would make much difference, but after hearing what 3 did for the Transp Ref Power Conditioner right next to it on same lower shelf...I am tempted. I also may try them in place of the HRS nimbus/couplers under my GAT...and then move the HRS nimbus/couplers under the Zanden Transport PSU. Will be interesting given comments here from people who floated that 'last component' and found a nice 'ahaaa!' type improvement. Even the sub is floating and 'sandwiched' as well as the X1/Grand Slamms (on Ultra 5s). we shall see...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Really getting on with using a combination of Symposium Isis racks under components, most recently SET monoblocks, and Rollerblock Jnr HRK modules/HDSE ball bearings/Svelte Shelves under spkrs. Initially a little disconcerting as the sound seems to be defying gravity and floating, but losing some substance/groundedness as a result. Then the effects snap into place - basically a lot of air and ambience is being revealed, with a commensurate elimination of bass bloat and excess euphonic warmth. For me, too much of a financial outlay to go for the 30-45 Ultra 5s that I'd need to kit my gear out with Stillpoints.
Really liking what I'm hearing, feel I'm lifting further veils and getting closer to the musical message. Intrigued that these changes in my system, from balanced power, to Entreq grounding, now to full Symposium isolation, are producing a big shift up in enjoyment without changing the basic character of the sound, so much better than the eternal merry-go-round of component switches.