Stillpoints Ultra Vs - Wilson X1/Grand Slamms

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, effects "snapping into place" is better described as a speeding up of the shift in cognitive ease, when the improvement stops 'shouting' at me and then becomes a natural part of the soundscape.
I have to say that improvements which significantly change the perception of bass, normally a lightening of such, cause quite a mental challenge in working out whether it is indeed an improvement or a loss of quality. When I in the past installed a BAT phono stage I got a big increase in what I thought was bass, but soon became aware was an increase in effect of bloat and euphonic low frequency colourations. Not a keeper.
Conversely, trying Symposium isolation esp under my spkrs seemed to strip out a whole strata of bass impact, very much like my active i4 demo, but further listening reveals more information, incisive and precise. In fact the lower frequencies are all there, but they're not leaking into the mids to colour the whole sound.
So much so, I've been able to turn up the volume on the Sub bass drivers of my Zu Definitions 4 spkrs, and am getting more accurate and extended bass performance, really potent kick drum esp, with no interference higher up.
But even now, this is getting some getting used to.

 

[LL21]

OK Gents (and ladies): so by complete accident, I ended up doing a shoot out between HRS and Stillpoints.

CONCLUSION/RANKING (for me and my system):

1. Ultra 5s with Ultra Base + HRS Nimbus/Couplers on TOP of the Ultra 5...and directly underneath the CJ GAT

2. HRS/Nimbus Couplers & HRS M3

3&4. Stillpoints Ultra SS - tied - HRS Nimbus/Couplers...depending on your preference (see below for explanation)

5. Ultra 5 - the clear, clear winner on clarity without doubt...competing comfortably with #2 above...except that I lost about 15% of the lower mid to upper treble 'weight' in piano keyboard...for a guy who loves to sink his teeth into purity of tone...this was nearly a deal killer. and I loved the clarity and delineation that I was otherwise getting.

BACKGROUND
....

This all started last weekend when my Auralex isolation platform began to collapse under the weight of the Gryphon Colosseum (225lb with some damping weight on top). (it is supposed to hold 300 lb but no such luck.)

- the only thing solid enough was Ultra 5s...I had 4 I could use by taking from elsewhere in my system...but I needed to move my HRS from CJ GAT over to Sub.
- 48 hours later, Stillpoints Dealer showed up...and he suggested to try Ultra 5s under the CJ GAT.

In a word, stunningly good on clarity, note definition. Using 15 CDs...particularly Glenn Gould Goldberg Variation (1981)...I found the turn of each piano note was beautifully articulated so you really appreciated his fingerwork, his turns of phrasing. A wonderous exploration of Gould's interpretation of Bach. However, the entire weight of the mids and treble lightened by about 15% so that it no longer had the weight and 'wooden slam' I loved hearing when I studied piano for 12 years. it was killing me...I could not stand that one single element...everything else was great. But in some recordings and some higher-range areas of the piano suddenly becoming potentially and 'electronic keyboard fake of a piano' because it had not weight was not acceptable to me.

I am not saying it happens across the board in all circumstances (in fact, it doesn't because I use them elsewhere)...but I found a review on the Stillpoints Website where this is exactly what the Reviewer noted...he even used Piano weight as his example as well. Not a coincidence imho...in our respective systems, we heard the same problem.


VARIOUS ITERATIONS AND MY 'LISTENING NOTES'
....

I then went thru various iterations to 'get the best of both':

- HRS nimbus/couplers: I had this beautiful deep tonal weight with the HRS nimbus/couplers underneath...but nowhere near the clarity of ANY of the combinations.

- Ultra SS: more articulated than nimbus couplers, and NEARLY maintained the tonal weight...but the frequency range seemed inconsistent from bass to treble...various pockets that had different levels of clarity, weight...very subtle but weird to get used to. The nimbus couplers were less clear, but at least completely even across the spectrum. You choose. ideally, I wanted neither at this point if I ideally could get best of both...(Note: it may have been that the screw-able top of the Ultra SS mandates more finicky/exacting positioning that I had done...hence the 'imbalance' I was perceiving.

- HRS Nimbus/Couplers + HRS M3. OK! NEARLY the clarity of Ultra 5 but not quite the solidity of note/surety of foot on complex orchestral or dynamic booms...it wobbled when shaken or hit hard by complexity or bass or even soaring treble...but it was very very very even tonally across the spectrum now. But intuitively I felt the M3 was not quite getting me that ultimate Ultra 5 security. However, all the tonal weight came back...and I could probably have walked away and been extremely happy at this point.

Finally, after a lot of mental Rubik's cubing to figure out a solution...it dawned on me...the tonal weight clearly was a characteristic of HRS and I am betting it is something in their elastomer.

I combined Ultra 5 with Base...and placed the HRS nimbus/coupler on TOP...directly underneath the CJ GAT. Blam! That (for me in my system) is it...clearly every system will require different elements. But in mine to maintain the voice which I never wanted to give up...but get back that Stillpoints Ultra 5 clarity...this is truly the way.

It is quite possibly a BIGGER improvement than going from ACT 2 (Series 1) to CJ GAT...for those that know both...that is saying a lot...particularly if after time, I decide this isolation is a much greater improvement than upgrading the component to 2 generations later (and to CJ's credit, these 2 generational changes were not mere changes but truly wholesale improvements to add back the CJ magic while maintaining the new-found linearity, low noise floor and clarity of the original ACT 2).

all for now. Just sharing.

 

[LL21]

UPDATE. Last nite, I re-laid out the system isolation after literally "mapping out" where each component should go based on observations about how each isolation change adjusts the sound to each component. I have tested now on classical orchestral, soundtracks, hip hop, deep house, Norah Jones, jazz, audiophile recordings, etc.

I will continue to listen...but believe much more firmly that this is a thorough approach and conclusion. We shall see at the end of this weekend.

From the wall:

- Power Conditioner: 4 Ultra Vs & Base + HRS Nimbus Couplers (HRS damper on top)
- Transport PSU: 3 Ultra 5s (HRS extra long damper on top)
- Transport: 3 Ultra 5s (Stillpoints LPI on top)
- DAC PSU: 3 Nimbus. (I may try 3 Ultra 5s) (2 HRS squares and 1 Artsesania damper on top)
- DAC: 3 Nimbus + HRS M3 (HRS extra thick extra long damper on top)
- Preamp: 3 Nimbus + HRS M3 (HRS extra thick extra long damper, Artesania and 2 Finite Elemente dampers on top)

- Wilson X1s: 4 Ultra 5s under
- Velodyne: 4 Ultra 5s under (3 HRS Nimbus on top of the Velodyne with (3) 10kg of Brass Weights on top of the 3 Nimbus).

Essentially, in my system and for my ears, speakers, Power-related components respond best to the gripping control of the Ultra 5s+HRSNimbus. Signal components respond best to the incredible tonality, evenness of frequency and ease/flow of the HRS M3s+Nimbus.

In my system, despite the Ultra 5/Nimbus combo being remarkable across treble, mids, mid and deep bass...I mean remarkable...I still lost 'impact/weight' at 150hz+ bass (snare drum)...thus it ultimately was not for the Signal components. (Note: in my system, with ONLY the Ultra 5s...I not only lost the upper bass weight...i also lost treble/mid weight in piano keyboards as well...unacceptable to me...but I did find the HRS Nimbus/Couplers on top of the Ultra 5s added ALL the treble/mid weight back...just NOT in the upper bass region unfrotunately. It took a while to figure that out...but once I moved to hip hop, it became quite obvious...I found myself unconsciously turning the volume up...not satisfying...never a good sign. I also found I started changing albums 3/4 of the way thru...also not a good sign.

The M3/Nimbus is very close in the treble, mid, mid/deep bass to the Ultra 5/Nimbus combination in terms of presentation...but it still has a slight 'haze/smear' compared to Ultra 5/Nimbus. Violins, voices, details, separation of every instrument firmly into its own space....not as clear as Ultra 5s (which make this element of albums so much fun to enjoy). However, in its favor, M3/Nimbus is perfectly even and consistent across the entire spectrum....including the upper bass weight. I can once again listen at volume 1 and be totally happy. Thus, for signal components the M3/Nimbus is a far better solution for me.

...however, I still wanted that wonderful clarity, sense of individual instruments, delineation of piano notes, staccato strikes, violin strings...

Ultimately, I was pleasantly surprised to discover the the M3/Nimbus under my signal components (DAC & Preamp) benefited GREATLY from the ultra ultra grip/clarity of the Ultra 5s in the preceding sections of the system (Transport, power supply and power conditioner components). Note: I place dampers on top of all components...HRS double-thick, Artesania...or in case of Transport, 1 Stillpoints LPI. With the Sub, its Ultra 5s under and (3) 10kg of brass weights on top of (3) HRS Nimbus. Thus, each component is in its own 'isolation sandwich'.

So now best of both, but it took a system-wide approach of blending to get to where I am happy. Whew!

 

[MylesBAstor]

Stillpoints under XLFs!



From the Analogue Fellowship FB page. IIRC they are a group of audiophiles out of Malaysia. Gary is on there too. And no he didn't say anything about the sound unless I missed it.

 

[LL21]

Nice one, Myles! Where did you get the shot? Do you know how these sounded before and after Stillpoints? Very curious given how much more solid I suspect the XLFs are in the main bass enclosure.

 

[Bill Hart]

You've been busy, Lloyd. Doesn't surprise me that each of the damper/decouplers lend a different character to the sound of different components and that you have to take a system-wide approach. I haven't gone to the lengths you have, in part because I've kept my existing rack/stands- Monaco Grand Prix, for the electronics. But, my experiments with various decouplers under the power supply to my phono stage yielded considerable differences, which I wrote about a while ago- trying to get that 'clarity' without harshness, or losing the 'heft' of the sound was always the issue. I tried combining various decouplers too. I think part of it is system specific, and dependent on the various components, as well as the overall 'voice' of the system; change one thing- decoupling on one component and it affects the result. That's why what you did is so... exhaust(ive)(ing).

 

[LL21]

You've been busy, Lloyd. Doesn't surprise me that each of the damper/decouplers lend a different character to the sound of different components and that you have to take a system-wide approach. I haven't gone to the lengths you have, in part because I've kept my existing rack/stands- Monaco Grand Prix, for the electronics. But, my experiments with various decouplers under the power supply to my phono stage yielded considerable differences, which I wrote about a while ago- trying to get that 'clarity' without harshness, or losing the 'heft' of the sound was always the issue. I tried combining various decouplers too. I think part of it is system specific, and dependent on the various components, as well as the overall 'voice' of the system; change one thing- decoupling on one component and it affects the result. That's why what you did is so... exhaust(ive)(ing).

Agree! I am just happy its done!!!

 

[Bill Hart]

Agree! I am just happy its done!!!

Man you stay up late, or get up early.

 

[LL21]

Man you stay up late, or get up early.

sometimes one, sometimes the other...and sometimes cannot sleep.

 

[Thf99]

I was there when the ultra 5s were installed last Sunday and I must say that the main areas of improvement were in the bass quality and overall clarity. Today, I just got back from another short listening session and wow (!), the improvement in the bass quality has taken on another level! Borrowing Lloyd's scoring system, I give it a 15% in overall improvement.

 

[LL21]

I was there when the ultra 5s were installed last Sunday and I must say that the main areas of improvement were in the bass quality and overall clarity. Today, I just got back from another short listening session and wow (!), the improvement in the bass quality has taken on another level! Borrowing Lloyd's scoring system, I give it a 15% in overall improvement.

Thanks! Good to know...and my recollection for X1s is also something like that or a bit more, if only because I know my wood floors present a lot of vibration.

 

[Steve Williams]

Thanks! Good to know...and my recollection for X1s is also something like that or a bit more, if only because I know my wood floors present a lot of vibration.

I can certainly see the benefits of Stillpoints on hardwood floor but can one expect such similar results with speakers on carpet

 

[edorr]

I can certainly see the benefits of Stillpoints on hardwood floor but can one expect such similar results with speakers on carpet

This has been asked multiple times and the answer is a resounding yes. I have great results with the ULTRAs on carpet under my verity audio parsifals on carpet, and next time I have a few grand burning a hole in my pocket, I'll probably pick up two sets of ULTRA 5s for my MM3s.

 

[Orb]

Just curious,
any of you noticed differences in timing when compared to Wilson Audio Diode floor couplers?
Asking as Martin Colloms subjectively felt that they were good in nearly all areas, however possible weakness compared to the Diode subjective taut speed/entertainment value was lost.
This was using them on Sophia 3s, and was both the Ultra SS and Ultra Five.

Cheers
Orb

 

[LL21]

Just curious,
any of you noticed differences in timing when compared to Wilson Audio Diode floor couplers?
Asking as Martin Colloms subjectively felt that they were good in nearly all areas, however possible weakness compared to the Diode subjective taut speed/entertainment value was lost.
This was using them on Sophia 3s, and was both the Ultra SS and Ultra Five.

Cheers
Orb

I have always respected Martin Colloms, but when he said he tried Ultra 5 with Ultra Bases under the Wilsons...I was concerned he did not remove the diodes and screw in the Ultra 5s...because if you have them attached to Ultra Bases, you CANT screw them into the Wilsons uses the special adaptor screws made by Stillpoints.

That can be a big big difference.

In any event, most of the people I know (as seen in the XLF shot by Myles) remove the diodes...and generally get faster speed. more delineation and effortless...less 'shimmer'.

 

[Orb]

Hmm yeah good point, I am assuming he did remove the diodes (this is only the Sophia 3 not the uber large-heavy Wilson speaker) but like you said it is an uncertainty and one cannot assume anything.

Edit.
My assumption was because he described the following when used with the Avalon:

it substantially enhanced sound quality aspects of the impressive Avalon Compas - somewhat worringly so, to my mind, since it seemed tantamount to altering the design of a speaker that was presumably tuned for its own supplied floor spikes and/or hard floor couplers".

Cheers
Orb

 

[LL21]

I can certainly see the benefits of Stillpoints on hardwood floor but can one expect such similar results with speakers on carpet

Hi STeve. I think Turntable/Shane has photos in this thread earlier on where he has his Wilson Maxx 3s on the carpet...and found Ultra SS to be much better than Wilson spikes. I think the reason is that spiking thru carpet is like spiking to floor of course...but using Ultra SS or Ultra 5s means the unit is [apparently] absorbing a lot of the vibration into itself via the vibration transmitting to the ceramic balls inside. i'm no techie, but maybe that's partly why some find it does work on carpets?

 

[audioarcher]

Hi STeve. I think Turntable/Shane has photos in this thread earlier on where he has his Wilson Maxx 3s on the carpet...and found Ultra SS to be much better than Wilson spikes. I think the reason is that spiking thru carpet is like spiking to floor of course...but using Ultra SS or Ultra 5s means the unit is [apparently] absorbing a lot of the vibration into itself via the vibration transmitting to the ceramic balls inside. i'm no techie, but maybe that's partly why some find it does work on carpets?

Stillpoints should just come out with a spiked version of the Ultra 5 for carpets. The Ultra 5 are wide enough to allow three spikes to be threaded to the bottom. Three spikes would be stable enough to work and would also allow some adjustment of height.

 

[LL21]

Stillpoints should just come out with a spiked version of the Ultra 5 for carpets. The Ultra 5 are wide enough to allow three spikes to be threaded to the bottom. Three spikes would be stable enough to work and would also allow some adjustment of height.

I am not techie, but when i read the literature, i got the sense that this may not be how they work...given the fact that the Ultra 5s are a sandwich...metal on 2 sides and ceramic balls in between...I always got the impression the vibrations go in...hit the ceramic balls and are dissipated as heat. Thus, I think they are trying NOT to take vibration from one side and then 'lead it out' the other or vice versa. Again, aint no techie...but that is what I thought their description was saying...

 

[edorr]

I am not techie, but when i read the literature, i got the sense that this may not be how they work...given the fact that the Ultra 5s are a sandwich...metal on 2 sides and ceramic balls in between...I always got the impression the vibrations go in...hit the ceramic balls and are dissipated as heat. Thus, I think they are trying NOT to take vibration from one side and then 'lead it out' the other or vice versa. Again, aint no techie...but that is what I thought their description was saying...

Correct. But spiking them through carpet, would not change this. Vibration will still be dissipated in the device, but they would just be more stable spiked.