Oh okay, that clears things up. What I'm saying is good as treble might seem, it gets better when what's missing from the reproduction of the full signal (Bass) is put back/reproduced along with it.
Luxury Sedan Priced Speakers- they have fancy car paint, but do they sound better?
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Given a particular amp is powerful enough to control the bass, if the bass is finely controlled doesn't it follow the amp will finely dissect the treble too? In defense of amplifiers, it has been my experience the amp cannot overcome the sins of the other components.
Hi
Could be my penultimate reply on this ... Bass perception is dominated by room acoustics... No matter how well the woofer is controlled. The reproduction of bass remains room dependent .. Although we think of instruments in term of the spectrum covered...a violin for example is considered a high pitched instrument .. Its spectrum however does show considerable energy in the upper bass. A good reproduction of the bass frequencies does help in reproducing the violin (and many other instruments, including the human voice) better ... Everything else being equal i-e , electronics, DAC, TT, cartridges, etc .. I think that was the point MikeL and I have been trying to convey
Nothing to disagree with there, Frantz, but it's all a matter of what you call upper bass and what you call full range. The spectrum graph Mike posted a couple of pages back showed the violin's "bass" overtones falling off at about 200 hz. That's not going to be much of a problem for most small 2-way speakers, the best of which are going to go to 50-60hz without significant coloration. Are they full range? No. Are they able to handle the bass content of most music? Yes. Add a sub for the last octave or two. And while I would absolutely agree that covering the 50 - 30 hz region can add a lot to some material, it clearly doesn't add anything to a violin. I wonder how much more of the music we listen to contains no information below 50hz? A lot, I suspect. None of this is to say that full range is not a good thing. I'd just advise against getting too carried away and insisting that music is incomplete without it. I suspect that is usually not the case.
Tim
Mark Seaton
WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
Hi Tim,
I have to wonder about some of the spectrum's I see listed about instruments and how greatly that spectrum varies over time. Most look at the sustain of an instrument, where that is often the least identifying/unique part of the sound between instruments. I'm not suggesting that a violin would be the best example, as I suspect a more percussive instrument would be a better example. As I'm sure you know, any sound with a "fast" attack or decay must include wide bandwidth by definition. Depending on when an y lower level bass energy occurs, it could certainly affect the perception of percussive or changing events. IMO, apart from the more obvious instruments, with non-shy instruments the deeper frequencies largely punctuate the sound, much like plosives in speech.
From my own simple experiments, it's quite intriguing, if not confusing, to play with simple shelving filters while listening. You can shelf up or down frequencies only above 1-2kHz and hear how the perceived bass qualities change, and you can lift up and down the lower octaves and hear how the upper frequencies can sound more or less detailed or muddied. Above and below some frequency the shelf has a flat response, so the upper treble or lower range is not changing response, but rather the relative balance between them. I suspect most audiophiles would be surprised at the process used by an engineer/sound dude to get the exact beater head & attack sound for a kick drum... especially as they whip around the HF EQ!
Hi Tim,
I have to wonder about some of the spectrum's I see listed about instruments and how greatly that spectrum varies over time. Most look at the sustain of an instrument, where that is often the least identifying/unique part of the sound between instruments. I'm not suggesting that a violin would be the best example, as I suspect a more percussive instrument would be a better example. As I'm sure you know, any sound with a "fast" attack or decay must include wide bandwidth by definition. Depending on when an y lower level bass energy occurs, it could certainly affect the perception of percussive or changing events. IMO, apart from the more obvious instruments, with non-shy instruments the deeper frequencies largely punctuate the sound, much like plosives in speech.
From my own simple experiments, it's quite intriguing, if not confusing, to play with simple shelving filters while listening. You can shelf up or down frequencies only above 1-2kHz and hear how the perceived bass qualities change, and you can lift up and down the lower octaves and hear how the upper frequencies can sound more or less detailed or muddied. Above and below some frequency the shelf has a flat response, so the upper treble or lower range is not changing response, but rather the relative balance between them. I suspect most audiophiles would be surprised at the process used by an engineer/sound dude to get the exact beater head & attack sound for a kick drum... especially as they whip around the HF EQ!
I think if most audiophiles could log some hours in mixing and mastering, a whole lot of myths would dissolve.
Tim
Wow I first really misread the title and responded "I have a Lexus ES with the Levinson/Nav option. It sounds great."
But in any event, many high end speakers do sound very good. I really like the new Sophia 3s by Wilson but that's maybe luxury compact car in price range.
But in any event, many high end speakers do sound very good. I really like the new Sophia 3s by Wilson but that's maybe luxury compact car in price range.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Thanks, Jack. I've always said that bass is the foundation of music. Earlier in this thread, Mike L mentioned Pachebel's Canon. Here is the waveform of a single "tink" among the rest of the music. You see the complex waveform that is all the instruments superimposed.
The actual "tink" is almost sine-like, but waves up and down due to the undelrying bass. Then, you have the shimmering decay. If the bass is removed, or wrong, the shimmer and the pureness of the "tink" of the triangle is lost.
The great difficulty is that a loudspeaker with two or three or four or five drivers has to first break-down electrically and then re-create sonically this single complex waveform.
I'm sorry, Gary, I don't follow the logic of what you're saying here. With the waveform as shown there should be no loss of "shimmer decay" if the underlying bass waveform is filtered out, either in a software editor, or by crossover components ...
Frank
If you will allow me some artistic license Mate, I'll give this a stab.
Music is often described as a tapestry so perhaps I'll start there as I feel the analogy is apt. If one were to visualize what he hears as such we can imagine the size, shape and color of every event and when we look closer we will see the individual threads weaving in and out much like the waveform above. This event is interweaved with other parts of the envelopes of other events from simultaneous transients to cumulative sustains to cumulative decays. Some say these cumulative decays form the bed of the music. Since bass frequencies have the longest wavelengths they are also the most lingering and make up the foundation. Remove the bed, or the foundation, and what's left is the tinkle of the thread. No background color to make the thread's color pop out. Chances are it will be hard to see clearly the smaller details, the shimmer if you will, without a contrasting background. Note that sight and hearing are not different in principle, they just cover different frequency bands. It is logical then to accept the theory that both are processed by the brain the same way. A major reason, I am not sold on your theory that elimination of treble distortion is all that is needed.
Perhaps Gary or Kal can correct me if I'm wrong or outdated but this is what I was taught and have experienced to be generally true. Psychoacoustic studies show that low frequencies or more precisely long reverberation times are the cues that suggest size of an enclosed place or great distances mainly because low frequencies travel farther through air than high frequencies do. Pretty much the reason lightning cracks nearby but far enough and all you get is thunder. By the same token, in an enclosed space the longer the gap between echoes the bigger the space is perceived to be. Also by nature, we do not expect low frequency sounds from small animals or objects. Mice don't make the ground rumble when they run but cattle does. The reaction of people to hearing small speakers play low notes is almost cliche ranging from "I can't believe it" and extending to "where did you hide the sub?". Same banana.
No real bass, handicapped highs. Add some suggestions of a bass event and the brain manages to fill in the blanks, highs take shape as part of the whole and have meaning. Add accurate bass, the brain needs to work less. The less work the brain has to do to decode the sensory inputs, the easier to just enjoy the equilibrium or balance between elements that is music.
Whew!
Now I agree with Tim and pretty much everybody else here that true full range is a not a prerequisite to musical enjoyment. It is however a huge chunk of the puzzle whether one's reference is live, artistic intent or the signal. Live means big instruments. A violin is still larger in surface area than most every two way, a triangle more than most tweeters, a piano or kettle or Kodo drums more than subwoofer drivers even with xMax in consideration. The simplistic view of artistic intent is if it was written or played all of it was meant to be heard. As for being true to the signal, if it's in there, play it all as best you can within the limits of practicality.
Just my 2 cents.
Music is often described as a tapestry so perhaps I'll start there as I feel the analogy is apt. If one were to visualize what he hears as such we can imagine the size, shape and color of every event and when we look closer we will see the individual threads weaving in and out much like the waveform above. This event is interweaved with other parts of the envelopes of other events from simultaneous transients to cumulative sustains to cumulative decays. Some say these cumulative decays form the bed of the music. Since bass frequencies have the longest wavelengths they are also the most lingering and make up the foundation. Remove the bed, or the foundation, and what's left is the tinkle of the thread. No background color to make the thread's color pop out. Chances are it will be hard to see clearly the smaller details, the shimmer if you will, without a contrasting background. Note that sight and hearing are not different in principle, they just cover different frequency bands. It is logical then to accept the theory that both are processed by the brain the same way. A major reason, I am not sold on your theory that elimination of treble distortion is all that is needed.
Perhaps Gary or Kal can correct me if I'm wrong or outdated but this is what I was taught and have experienced to be generally true. Psychoacoustic studies show that low frequencies or more precisely long reverberation times are the cues that suggest size of an enclosed place or great distances mainly because low frequencies travel farther through air than high frequencies do. Pretty much the reason lightning cracks nearby but far enough and all you get is thunder. By the same token, in an enclosed space the longer the gap between echoes the bigger the space is perceived to be. Also by nature, we do not expect low frequency sounds from small animals or objects. Mice don't make the ground rumble when they run but cattle does. The reaction of people to hearing small speakers play low notes is almost cliche ranging from "I can't believe it" and extending to "where did you hide the sub?". Same banana.
No real bass, handicapped highs. Add some suggestions of a bass event and the brain manages to fill in the blanks, highs take shape as part of the whole and have meaning. Add accurate bass, the brain needs to work less. The less work the brain has to do to decode the sensory inputs, the easier to just enjoy the equilibrium or balance between elements that is music.
Whew!
Now I agree with Tim and pretty much everybody else here that true full range is a not a prerequisite to musical enjoyment. It is however a huge chunk of the puzzle whether one's reference is live, artistic intent or the signal. Live means big instruments. A violin is still larger in surface area than most every two way, a triangle more than most tweeters, a piano or kettle or Kodo drums more than subwoofer drivers even with xMax in consideration. The simplistic view of artistic intent is if it was written or played all of it was meant to be heard. As for being true to the signal, if it's in there, play it all as best you can within the limits of practicality.
Just my 2 cents.
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More like $2 worth, I reckon ...
Oh dear, I feel such a lone, lone voice, proclaiming the virtues of the good tweeter, may its soul forever truly bathe in streams of pure, unadulterated, glistening notes, effervescently emerging ... (bloody hell, a pleb from down under going poet on us, can it get any worse ...)
Yep, I still stand on the dark side, so I will rephrase your "No real bass, handicapped highs" to "No accurate treble, handicapped everything else". Like everybody else, I am a child of my experiences and since my experiences include the transformation of sound when the treble snaps into focus, even having thick, plodding bass turn into sharp, gut thumping kicks, then that's where I will unfortunately have to remain ...
Frank
More like $2 worth, I reckon ...
Oh dear, I feel such a lone, lone voice, proclaiming the virtues of the good tweeter, may its soul forever truly bathe in streams of pure, unadulterated, glistening notes, effervescently emerging ... (bloody hell, a pleb from down under going poet on us, can it get any worse ...)
Yep, I still stand on the dark side, so I will rephrase your "No real bass, handicapped highs" to "No accurate treble, handicapped everything else". Like everybody else, I am a child of my experiences and since my experiences include the transformation of sound when the treble snaps into focus, even having thick, plodding bass turn into sharp, gut thumping kicks, then that's where I will unfortunately have to remain ...
Frank
I don't think you're alone in proclaiming the virtues of a good tweeter, Frank, I just think you're giving it more credit than it deserves.
Tim
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Whew!
Thanks, Jack. I couldn't have illustrated it as clearly.
Frank, if you look at all 0.08 seconds of the waveform, you can barely perceive a single wave with everything else superimposed on it. That's 12.5Hz. There's nothing wrong with proclaiming the virtues of a good tweeter, but an excellent tweeter can show up how bad the midrange is, or how bad the bass it. I think that you need a balance of elements in loudspeaker design, because I for one can't decide which key on the piano I like best.
Your experience of having thick, plodding bass turn into sharp, gut thumping kicks was probably with a speaker that had a tweeter going down into the midrange. Every speaker is designed different, and I've measured drivers being sold as tweeters that go down as far as 500Hz cleanly, but then they begin to beam at 10kHz.
Very nice, Jack. So it's a ying/yang thing? There is no good without evil. There is no light without darkness. Your treble won't shine as brightly without bass. I still haven't heard the phenomenon, but it sure was described nicely! And even though this morning's listen to Lucinda Williams and Ray LaMontagne was rich and wonderful, and did not leave me wanting, you have -- you've left me wanting a sub.
Tim
Tim
Out of interest, let's analyse the waveform you presented. The initial impact of the "hammer" produces a slowly decaying note at about 300Hz. Once the striker is no longer in contact with the instrument a very strong natural tone or 8th harmonic overtone appears, at 2400Hz, which also slowly decays. This is the shimmer element. There was an earlier more subtle note struck, at about 3800Hz, which decays by about halfway through the time grab. Underlying all of that are tones which vary from about 100 to 400Hz, which are all of the rest of the sound content of the music making shown in this snapshot.
So, a half reasonable midrange unit all by itself should have no trouble correctly reproducing nearly everything as shown ...
Frank
My guess is that what people are responding to is the natural very low bass energy that is part of the background sound of virtually all environments, bass background noise if you will, ambient rumble. Microphones don't have any problem picking this up and so when this is added into into the mix by a high quality subwoofer this sounds and feels more natural. Thus, irrespective of anything else, the music comes across better with its presence ...
Frank
Me too, Tom. I don't thing anyone is trying to say it is anything other than something happening in their heads - perception. But I've never heard it.
Tim
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
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