One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

ddk

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I tried pure silver speaker cables for a day. It sounded refreshing at first but after an hour or two just got uncomfortable with the sparkling and finally took them out. I use silver tonearm cable though.

Btw, do you also avoid full moon, Mr. Karmeli? :rolleyes:

Kind regards,
Tang

That's a Pooying thing to transform every month :)!

david
 

cdk84

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Dec 19, 2015
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Sorry to bring an old thread back from the dead, but after reading through the op, I had to thank you for this wonderful post.

It's posts like these that make being on forums so amazingly enjoyable. I love hearing about other's systems, and people's enjoyment of them. Particularly when they create experiences like these.

Though I'm a bit disappointed, as I lived in Utah for fifteen years, and would never have guessed a system of this magnitude was just a few hours drive away from me.

Again, this was a wonderful read, and I thank you for the post.

I agree.

Insofar as I am still pursuing my audio intentions, it is a privilege to learn from those at this level of expertise.

Like others, I am interested to learn of 'lesser' [meaning 1) obtainable and 2) somewhat less expensive than the Bionor] speakers that are on the natural-sounding end of the continuum. David or Steve, please weigh in on this if you wish.

This has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've seen. Thank you Steve, for reporting, and David for sharing your system.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
A visit to Utah to not only hear but to see the enormity and grandeur of David’s system is worth every penny. There isn’t much to compare with in such a large scale. Plus to hear all the different turntables was for me a revelation.
 

Tango

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Dear Khun David,

Do you have this big ass pressing?

IMG_3183.jpg

IMG_3182.jpg

Kind regards,
Tang
 
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ddk

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Dear Khun David,

Do you have this big ass pressing?

Kind regards,
Tang

Dear Khun Tang,

No, I don't have any 16" transcription records. I haven't seen any music that I'd want and from what I understand you need a big ass cartridge like this one which has only vertical suspension and even a bigger ass tonearm to go with it.

WE-Cartridge.jpg

WE-Cartridge-2.jpg

david
 

Tango

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Dear Khun Tang,

No, I don't have any 16" transcription records. I haven't seen any music that I'd want and from what I understand you need a big ass cartridge like this one which has only vertical suspension and even a bigger ass tonearm to go with it.


david

Thats really one big mama!!
 

PeterA

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I'm have indeed said that David's system has become my new reference. I also said that David's mantra is " it has to sound NATURAL. The bottom end on his system is the most relaxed but yet the best I have ever heard. In fact it redefines my definition of what bass should sound like. He does use two large JBL subs which are barely on and if I didn't mention are powered by Lamm ML 1's. These merely extend the range of his Bionors which go down to 50. The subs add a slight bit of ambience to the sound. I also use a pair of subs in my too for ambience as well and was always feeling good about my system. Having heard how David's bottom end sounds it is making me rethink a lot of things also when you hear his system you will instantly understand what he means by natural. This is a system that I have just never encountered in my 50 years in this hobby. There was no fatigue. Five days of constant listening was not enough. The sound stage easily changed from a solo singer to a jazz quartet at a night club to a heavy metal rock band to a huge orchestral. When we played the last album of the trip which was Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan I could literally feel my skin tingle to the resonance of the strings of their guitars. I would say that if anyone has the room and the means these speakers definitely are best served with an SET tube amp. Solid state IMO would never produce the sound David had.

Steve, this is a great thread. I am revisiting it since my recent trip to Utah. These types of threads are my favorite on the forum. Your enthusiasm for David system comes through very clearly. The Discussion in the first few pages seems oddly relevant today and it’s not very different from recent posts in the last few days. My own post # 73 written seven years ago is actually kind of sobering.
 
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PeterA

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I agree.

Insofar as I am still pursuing my audio intentions, it is a privilege to learn from those at this level of expertise.

Like others, I am interested to learn of 'lesser' [meaning 1) obtainable and 2) somewhat less expensive than the Bionor] speakers that are on the natural-sounding end of the continuum. David or Steve, please weigh in on this if you wish.

This has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've seen. Thank you Steve, for reporting, and David for sharing your system.

David, from your recent purchases, I can see you’re well on your way. You already have one of the Beyond tables, some of David’s electronics, and you’ve planned a trip to Utah. And you heard a glimpse of the sound at my house. You’ve already taken the fork in the road and know where you want to go.
 
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tima

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I read this thread over a few days and found it a thoroughly enjoyable read, especially the first three-quarters of it. Thank you Steve for your Utah visit write-up, commentary and pictures - wonderful. And David for your responses, being who you are and availing your audio sanctuary for our experience.

One of the most pleasant threads on WBF.
 

assessor43

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Nov 1, 2018
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Question for Dave: If I could get a pair of Bozak Concert Grands, would they work well with a McIntosh MC275?
 

godofwealth

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http://junkyardjukebox.blogspot.com/2012/10/western-electric-12a13a-adam-and-eve-of.html

There are many reports of folks like David who swear that a great horn is the "last word" in good audio reproduction. I guess the real mystery is, how did we lose our way from 1926 "SOA" sound reproduction using speakers such as the WE 12A/13A? I guess some would say we haven't really made much progress at all in nearly 100 years of loudspeaker design. So, are all current audiophiles and speaker manufacturers really nuts, if those ancient horns are as good as many say? At the very least, I'm now motivated to finding good horn systems and listening carefully to them.
Horns were a recent discovery for me as well, after spending 30 years listening to stats (Quads, I still own 3 pairs) and dynamic speakers (B&W, and various others, I do still own Harbeth Monitor 40.1s). My first foray into horns is the venerable Klipsch La Scala, which I bought with trepidation since I had no idea if I would like it. I actually love it — it’s much smaller than these gigantic Siemens movie theater speakers (which remind me of the larger Altec models), and far more friendly to a regular listening room (my room is fairly large, about 6000 cu ft).

I think horns are really great for enjoying SETs and once you realize all you need is 1 watt (yes, 1 watt is enough to drive my La Scalas really loud, far beyond what I normally listen to), you can focus on really gilding the lily. For me, that’s getting the best NOS Western Electric tubes etc. The purity of sound from a SET is quite amazing, and the folded horn design of the La Scalas makes them very efficient.

The potential drawback of the full horn design of the La Scalas is that there is very little low bass (almost nothing below 40 Hz) and the highs are also not as powerful as hyper metallic or diamond tweeters (which stretch out to above 40 Khz). These I can live without.

IMG_0140.jpeg
 

godofwealth

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The EMT turntable was widely used by the BBC for many decades. But this was the larger 950, not the 927 Steve listened to. The EMT 927 is actually fairly easy to find used, and can be bought often for much less than many current turntables. I saw a fully restored BBC 950 turntable listed once on Audiogon for around 20 grand, not unreasonable by the quality of the product.


1686098347369.jpeg
 
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cdk84

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Godofwealth wrote: "The potential drawback of the full horn design of the La Scalas is that there is very little low bass (almost nothing below 40 Hz) and the highs are also not as powerful as hyper metallic or diamond tweeters (which stretch out to above 40 Khz). These I can live without."

I have listened extensively to both David's system and to a couple of other systems with horns, to great satisfaction.

Find myself wondering if living without information below 40 Hz is necessary. *I* wouldn't want to miss that part of the music if something could make up the difference.

Although it takes some serious fiddling and a heavy dose of patience, high quality subwoofers can both augment and integrate with main speakers; it's the integration that requires the effort.

How do you find the crossovers on the La Scala's? One critique often leveled at their larger sibling, the Klipschorns, was limitations of the crossover.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers
 
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jeff1225

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The EMT turntable was widely used by the BBC for many decades. But this was the larger 950, not the 927 Steve listened to. The EMT 927 is actually fairly easy to find used, and can be bought often for much less than many current turntables. I saw a fully restored BBC 950 turntable listed once on Audiogon for around 20 grand, not unreasonable by the quality of the product.


View attachment 111408
927’s are big money these days, usually in excess of $60K.
 
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godofwealth

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Godofwealth wrote: "The potential drawback of the full horn design of the La Scalas is that there is very little low bass (almost nothing below 40 Hz) and the highs are also not as powerful as hyper metallic or diamond tweeters (which stretch out to above 40 Khz). These I can live without."

I have listened extensively to both David's system and to a couple of other systems with horns, to great satisfaction.

Find myself wondering if living without information below 40 Hz is necessary. *I* wouldn't want to miss that part of the music if something could make up the difference.

Although it takes some serious fiddling and a heavy dose of patience, high quality subwoofers can both augment and integrate with main speakers; it's the integration that requires the effort.

How do you find the crossovers on the La Scala's? One critique often leveled at their larger sibling, the Klipschorns, was limitations of the crossover.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers
I was pleasantly surprised how much I ended up liking my La Scalas (along with the SET amps to drive them). After several decades of avoiding horns because of the “received wisdom” that horns are too colored sounding and that SET amps measure horribly, I decided to ignore this audio myth and hear these for myself. One benefit of being on the “right” side of 60 is that you don’t particularly care what other people think anymore! I was also curious how Klipsch stayed in business for almost 70 years. They must be doing something right!

After listening to my La Scalas for almost 9 months now, they’re my favorite speakers in my house. I still have three pairs of Quad electrostatics and a Harbeth Monitor 40.1. But the La Scalas sound better to my ears in ways that are musically important. Driven by a really nice SET — one of my current favorites is Oliver Sayes’ 421a based SET — their sound is simply gorgeous. I use a NOS Western Electric 421a power tube — one stereo tube for both channels. 3 watts is more than enough as the La Scalas are rated 105dB efficient. It never ceases to amaze me that this humongous 200 pound refrigerator sized loudspeaker is driven so effortlessly by this tiny SET with just 3 tubes in it! Efficiency is the magic ingredient.

I find the crossover to be pretty well done. I could digitally equalize the drivers using miniDSP, but that introduces its own colorations. Regarding the larger Klipschorn, HFN/RR just published a review of the KHorn AK6 and they didn’t like it. They previously reviewed the La Scala and loved it and rated it highly. Looking at their measurements (for what that’s worth), the La Scalas measure a lot better. But until I try the KHorn in my house, I can’t say.

I have a pair of large REL Gibraltar G1 Mk2 subs in my room. I haven’t turned them on in 9 months of listening to the La Scalas. I’ve gotten used to listening without them. One of these days I’ll hook them up. I find audiophiles obsess over low bass for mostly unmusical reasons. Harry Pearson in TAS used to write reviews of which speakers could reveal the direction in which subway cars underneath Kingsway Hall were running in some famous Decca recordings. Stereophile reviewer Larry Greenhill talks about his pants flapping in the wind from his subs. I find this amusing but silly. Low bass is useful but mostly irrelevant to the enjoyment of music. I have listened to many concerts in San Francisco’s Davies Symphony Hall. Not once did I come out thinking wow, great bass. There’s very little low bass in a huge concert hall!

As Peter Walker once famously said, a loudspeaker is great or terrible long before it gets to 10 kHz. I’d add the same about low bass. Under 50 Hz, it doesn’t matter what happens. Musically it’s irrelevant to me. Even for organ music. Anyway the laws of physics implies you cannot reproduce low bass in a normal listening room. The wavelengths are too long. You want to hear a great pipe organ? Go to a church!
 
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godofwealth

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927’s are big money these days, usually in excess of $60K.
Don’t know where you are shopping, but I routinely find used 927s listed on Audiogon or Audiomart for 6-7 grand. There’s a fully restored 950 on eBay right now for 18 grand. The last fully restored 950 sold on Audiogon for 13 grand. They are much cheaper than most high priced audiophile turntables.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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I was pleasantly surprised how much I ended up liking my La Scalas (along with the SET amps to drive them). After several decades of avoiding horns because of the “received wisdom” that horns are too colored sounding and that SET amps measure horribly, I decided to ignore this audio myth and hear these for myself. One benefit of being on the “right” side of 60 is that you don’t particularly care what other people think anymore! I was also curious how Klipsch stayed in business for almost 70 years. They must be doing something right!

After listening to my La Scalas for almost 9 months now, they’re my favorite speakers in my house. I still have three pairs of Quad electrostatics and a Harbeth Monitor 40.1. But the La Scalas sound better to my ears in ways that are musically important. Driven by a really nice SET — one of my current favorites is Oliver Sayes’ 421a based SET — their sound is simply gorgeous. I use a NOS Western Electric 421a power tube — one stereo tube for both channels. 3 watts is more than enough as the La Scalas are rated 105dB efficient. It never ceases to amaze me that this humongous 200 pound refrigerator sized loudspeaker is driven so effortlessly by this tiny SET with just 3 tubes in it! Efficiency is the magic ingredient.

I find the crossover to be pretty well done. I could digitally equalize the drivers using miniDSP, but that introduces its own colorations. Regarding the larger Klipschorn, HFN/RR just published a review of the KHorn AK6 and they didn’t like it. They previously reviewed the La Scala and loved it and rated it highly. Looking at their measurements (for what that’s worth), the La Scalas measure a lot better. But until I try the KHorn in my house, I can’t say.

I have a pair of large REL Gibraltar G1 Mk2 subs in my room. I haven’t turned them on in 9 months of listening to the La Scalas. I’ve gotten used to listening without them. One of these days I’ll hook them up. I find audiophiles obsess over low bass for mostly unmusical reasons. Harry Pearson in TAS used to write reviews of which speakers could reveal the direction in which subway cars underneath Kingsway Hall were running in some famous Decca recordings. Stereophile reviewer Larry Greenhill talks about his pants flapping in the wind from his subs. I find this amusing but silly. Low bass is useful but mostly irrelevant to the enjoyment of music. I have listened to many concerts in San Francisco’s Davies Symphony Hall. Not once did I come out thinking wow, great bass. There’s very little low bass in a huge concert hall!

As Peter Walker once famously said, a loudspeaker is great or terrible long before it gets to 10 kHz. I’d add the same about low bass. Under 50 Hz, it doesn’t matter what happens. Musically it’s irrelevant to me. Even for organ music. Anyway the laws of physics implies you cannot reproduce low bass in a normal listening room. The wavelengths are too long. You want to hear a great pipe organ? Go to a church!

I enjoy reading about your SET/horn experiences. My corner horns are also 105 dB and 16 ohm loads. Very easy to drive. For me, it is not about the quantity of the bass, but rather the quality. It is not so much about extension, but how natural it all sounds. My speaker specs are mid 30s to 15K Hz. I have no interest in adding a super tweeter, and have no room for subs. I do not lose any sleep over it. You sound very satisfied with your system now. Congratulations.
 

Solypsa

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Don’t know where you are shopping, but I routinely find used 927s listed on Audiogon or Audiomart for 6-7 grand.
Wow. I don't look constantly but that seems like 20 years ago prices. Buy them all :)
 

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