One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

[PeterA]

A well set up tape machine at <$25k will trump a TT at any price!

I have a different, though admittedly very limited, experience. I have heard only two systems which have both tape and turntable. One had the TechDas and top contemporary tape and the other had vintage tape and a Technics SP10 MK 2. I don't know anything about tape players, but to my ears the Technics actually sounded better than the vintage R2R and the TechDas sounded about the same. I don't know if it was set up, software or something else, but I left underwhelmed by the much discussed superiority of tape.

This may be an outlier experience, and not typical of what most people with much more experience hear, but I thought I would share my somewhat contrarian listening impressions. I was left wondering what all the fuss is about.

But since people continue to praise the fidelity of tape, I remain open minded and hope to someday hear a system which can clearly demonstrate the superiority of the medium.

 

[ddk]

What keeps the Micro Seiki turntables out of the main system, and the Thorens in? I always assumed they would be better than the Thorens. Is there an ever so slight smearing due to the string drive system?

Better is where it gets sticky Win, at least for me. In absolute terms the Micro's could be considered better but all these tables have their own flavor and are special. I already have the AF-1 and the AS tables in this system, the Micros are of the same flavor, so they're in the other system and I need a tt there.

Wrong tension and/or insufficient inertia can cause the slight smearing that you mention, not the case here and I'm using a solid belt, not thread but the tension will have a direct influence on sound even here.

Bruce,
Didn't you know that magnetic tape causes cancer in laboratory rats?

david

 

[ddk]

I have a different, though admittedly very limited, experience. I have heard only two systems which have both tape and turntable. One had the TechDas and top contemporary tape and the other had vintage tape and a Technics SP10 MK 2. I don't know anything about tape players, but to my ears the Technics actually sounded better than the vintage R2R and the TechDas sounded about the same. I don't know if it was set up, software or something else, but I left underwhelmed by the much discussed superiority of tape.

This may be an outlier experience, and not typical of what most people with much more experience hear, but I thought I would share my somewhat contrarian listening impressions. I was left wondering what all the fuss is about.

But since people continue to praise the fidelity of tape, I remain open minded and hope to someday hear a system which can clearly demonstrate the superiority of the medium.

Can't speak to your experience because of the possible variables involved but the operating word in Bruce's post was well setup, its not plug & play for that kind of result. The tape guys here can explain it better.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

As I discussed w/Bonzo today, put together a good R2R deck for $5k-$10k, prerecorded 15ips half or quarter track tapes for $100-$200, and a range to include classic Miles Davis, John Coltrane, various Blue Note, Holst Planets suite, Rimsky Scheherazade, Stravinsky, Bach etc, and I would be in.
But this world doesn't exist. Tapes are up to $500, and tbh only one or two appeal to me. I'm not going to get into this w/such a poor selection of software.
No criticism is pointed at any party, the selection is what it is.
But the medium strikes me as existing in a vacuum, and as a way for audiophiles to boast they've climbed the highest mountain of all.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

on the hardware side of tape, you have the RTR deck and likely a high quality tape repro. purchased smartly, a top level deck will likely sell for $10k-$15k+ if you aspire to better the best vinyl. the tape repro electronics are $3k--$12k depending.

I have approximately 120-130 RTR titles......mostly 2 reels, some 1 reel, mostly 'grey market' 1/4" 15ips master dubs (a handful of 1/2") of various provenance. some are $500 (a couple are $1000), some $400, some $300, others $275. it's taken 7+ years to put together this collection of tapes. I doubt I will buy even 10 more tapes. I mostly have the ones I want.

and when you step into the tape culture there is access to the very top, top titles if you so desire. anything pretty much you could dream of.

think about the most popular recordings of all time in Jazz and pop/rock; i likely have maybe 40-50% the ones you would list in the top 25 and it's by far the best you would ever hear them. what might that be worth to you?

there is no right or wrong reason to get into high level RTR tape. but no doubt at a high level there is nothing like it. i came of age in the 60's and 70's and being able to hear that music like that happens to be worth it to me.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, just what are some of the top titles you have, as you say "stepping into the tape culture"?
Can one really source, say eg, Miles Nefertiti and Miles Smiles, Coltrane Giant Steps and A Love Supreme, Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti, The Who Tommy, Santana Abraxas, Holst Planets Suite, Rimsky Scheherazade, Bach Brandenberg Concertos, Beethoven's Ninth, Stravinsky Rites etc etc?
I ask this because all I see are things like Tape Project obscure titles.
This obv doesn't really belong on this thread, but what is a good source of info as to the kinds of titles I might like to acquire?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, just what are some of the top titles you have, as you say "stepping into the tape culture"?
Can one really source, say eg, Miles Nefertiti and Miles Smiles, Coltrane Giant Steps and A Love Supreme, Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti, The Who Tommy, Santana Abraxas, Holst Planets Suite, Rimsky Scheherazade, Bach Brandenberg Concertos, Beethoven's Ninth, Stravinsky Rites etc etc?
I ask this because all I see are things like Tape Project obscure titles.
This obv doesn't really belong on this thread, but what is a good source of info as to the kinds of titles I might like to acquire?

Spirit,

the first rule of the tape 'grey market' culture is discretion. even though i likely own multiple legit commercial copies of almost every tape i own and so the artist has been paid multiple times already, i don't normally post about specific titles. i know I've let my guard down a couple of times in 7 years, but i try not to do it. your tape source has legal and possibly ethical exposure. you have legal exposure. best not to press your luck.

i have access to 80% of the titles you listed. i own 25% of the titles you listed, and i don't have that many classical titles compared to pop rock and jazz.

a good source for the most top, top, titles is to find a tape head you trust and that trusts you and ask him/her where to get top titles. my wife calls those guys my 'drug dealers'.

they don't have web sites or advertise.

 

[rockitman]

Spirit,

the first rule of the tape 'grey market' culture is discretion. even though i likely own multiple legit commercial copies of almost every tape i own and so the artist has been paid multiple times already, i don't normally post about specific titles. i know I've let my guard down a couple of times in 7 years, but i try not to do it. your tape source has legal and possibly ethical exposure. you have legal exposure. best not to press your luck.

a good source for the most top, top, titles is to find a tape head you trust and that trusts you and ask him/her where to get top titles. my wife calls those guys my 'drug dealers'.

they don't have web sites or advertise.

+1

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, is this on a par w/bootlegs? I've spent £00's/£000's w/my favourite bands so have no qualms about securing bootleg live cd's. I would feel the same about R2R tapes.
None of this is helping me, or enticing me to go R2R.
I'm seriously considering a bleeding edge SOTA tt final purchase. My current 75lb slate plinth/direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation tt would see it's ultimate evolution/cost no object development in the form of the Saskia Reference 2 uber deck ($53k).
It really makes more sense for me to enjoy my 2k lp collection on this, than starting a new medium from scratch.

 

[rockitman]

Mike, is this on a par w/bootlegs? I've spent £00's/£000's w/my favourite bands so have no qualms about securing bootleg live cd's. I would feel the same about R2R tapes.
None of this is helping me, or enticing me to go R2R.
I'm seriously considering a bleeding edge SOTA tt final purchase. My current 75lb slate plinth/direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation tt would see it's ultimate evolution/cost no object development in the form of the Saskia Reference 2 uber deck ($53k).
It really makes more sense for me to enjoy my 2k lp collection on this, than starting a new medium from scratch.

You will never be able to quench your thirst for all the titles you love on vinyl and get them on tape. I have a decent tape collection and invested a lot in both the software and the playback hardware...that said....I'm lucky to have what I have, but only look at it as a supplement to my vinyl experience. Vinyl still rules 80% of my listening time as I have so much more to listen too. I say knock your vinyl playback system out of the park and if you still have money to burn and a lot of time, patience and luck...get a tape machine.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian and Mike, the main issue is the total lack of tech back up in the UK.
I run a planetarium-grade Barco Cine 9 crt projector, in my opinion the high water mark of analog technology in the video field (overkill on a par w/Mike's bleeding edge Studer), and we're down to one remaining tech in the UK. Fingers crossed he doesn't suffer a cardiac arrest ! Or die of old age.
I've invested £55k/$130k in this baby since 1998. This is stressful enough w.out 1/having to buy a SOTA R2R from the US or on Ebay, 2/being all at sea re availability of titles, 3/having no techhead to share headaches with.
R2R is just not for me, despite being all too aware how it takes analog superiority to unprecedented levels.

 

[rockitman]

Christian and Mike, the main issue is the total lack of tech back up in the UK.
I run a planetarium-grade Barco Cine 9 crt projector, in my opinion the high water mark of analog technology in the video field (overkill on a par w/Mike's bleeding edge Studer), and we're down to one remaining tech in the UK. Fingers crossed he doesn't suffer a cardiac arrest ! Or die of old age.
I've invested £55k/$130k in this baby since 1998. This is stressful enough w.out 1/having to buy a SOTA R2R from the US or on Ebay, 2/being all at sea re availability of titles, 3/having no techhead to share headaches with.
R2R is just not for me, despite being all too aware how it takes analog superiority to unprecedented levels.

Don't torture yourself....you really need to be motivated to surpass those obstacles you mention. My vinyl rig sounds very close to tape on the titles I do have in both tape and vinyl. Tape is quieter....no occasional pops or ticks, the apparent density and extension of the music is better and the bass is more resounding in authority. It is closer to the performance than vinyl, but not by a whole lot when compared to very well sorted vinyl playback system..imho.

 

[NorthStar]

Spirit,

the first rule of the tape 'grey market' culture is discretion. even though i likely own multiple legit commercial copies of almost every tape i own and so the artist has been paid multiple times already, i don't normally post about specific titles. i know I've let my guard down a couple of times in 7 years, but i try not to do it. your tape source has legal and possibly ethical exposure. you have legal exposure. best not to press your luck.

i have access to 80% of the titles you listed. i own 25% of the titles you listed, and i don't have that many classical titles compared to pop rock and jazz.

a good source for the most top, top, titles is to find a tape head you trust and that trusts you and ask him/her where to get top titles. my wife calls those guys my 'drug dealers'.

they don't have web sites or advertise.

Basically the music underworld.

 

[NorthStar]

You will never be able to quench your thirst for all the titles you love on vinyl and get them on tape. I have a decent tape collection and invested a lot in both the software and the playback hardware...that said....I'm lucky to have what I have, but only look at it as a supplement to my vinyl experience. Vinyl still rules 80% of my listening time as I have so much more to listen too. I say knock your vinyl playback system out of the park and if you still have money to burn and a lot of time, patience and luck...get a tape machine.

...And a Ferrari machine. :b

 

[spiritofmusic]

Nothstar, don't get onto cars, otherwise I'll have to reveal my third obsession after audio and home cinema, my 1968 Citroen DS21.
If you guys think audio esp R2R is a vortex of OCD, I suggest you try classic car ownership. The joy of driving/pride of ownership/sheer fear of breaking down at any moment takes "living in the moment" to new levels!
I should be able to take R2R in my stride.
Christian, thanx for your input, I remain content my decision to pass on tape is fully justified.
Now, can I really justify that uber tt buy?

 

[LetsMakeaDeal]

Its here !

View attachment 21587
david

I picked up a copy of this disk. All I can say if you can find one, buy it....OMG is it fantastic..

 

[Steve williams]

I picked up a copy of this disk. All I can say if you can find one, buy it....OMG is it fantastic..

I'm glad you like it. Not only do I use it was a demo album but because of all of the transients and dynamic peaks I also use the album as a burn in disk

 

[LL21]

I'm glad you like it. Not only do I use it was a demo album but because of all of the transients and dynamic peaks I also use the album as a burn in disk

Agree!!!

 

[lordcloud]

Sorry to bring an old thread back from the dead, but after reading through the op, I had to thank you for this wonderful post.

It's posts like these that make being on forums so amazingly enjoyable. I love hearing about other's systems, and people's enjoyment of them. Particularly when they create experiences like these.

Though I'm a bit disappointed, as I lived in Utah for fifteen years, and would never have guessed a system of this magnitude was just a few hours drive away from me.

Again, this was a wonderful read, and I thank you for the post.

 

[Tango]

As far as silver wire goes, you won't find any in my place !

david

I tried pure silver speaker cables for a day. It sounded refreshing at first but after an hour or two just got uncomfortable with the sparkling and finally took them out. I use silver tonearm cable though.

Btw, do you also avoid full moon, Mr. Karmeli?

Kind regards,
Tang