Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award

[caesar]

and I promise in 2019 I will become more succinct... but till then...

Should I apologise to Caesar in advance? For I also haven’t come just to praise him lovingly lol.

My first response was in seeing this as all being blown way, way, way too much out of proportion and found myself very much agreeing with Mike’s salient comments and in his trying to bring some balancing perspective to this.

I also have felt that we have more recently taken to ALL too regularly beating up reviewers lately... that it’s become more and more of a zealous purging of the priesthood.

I cringe when this attack has become waaaaay too personal.

I was going to make a comment that when the hyperbole police were finally done here inspecting the crime site that we should then just call in the big drama department to do a final mop up so we could let go of this.

But on refelection there is something here that is or has become (as the price of this hobby has increasingly skyrocketed) more wrong (and perhaps therefore increasingly untruthful/corrupt or even a essentially immoral at the core?) and has just been getting dodgier and dodgier and more inflated. There is a higher price to be paid all round here over the years and that the other crime (is it a misdemeanour?) has also been ours for letting it get away on us so that it is really now easy to see this as a seemingly harmless and very much accepted part and parcel of the landscape. But in truth perhaps it is just wrong to continue accepting these circumstances and we perhaps need to challenge the standards here more.

I also had quite a few times felt like saying that the hyperbole police should probably just tell us there was clearly nothing to see here and that we should probably just move along.

So I innately take a moderate more accepting position here given that I accepted this as just part of the system that we have inherited and now have that buys us some entertainment and a bit of an infomercial along the way... and this might then be my failing and why I started with questioning if I should therefore have an apology for Caesar.

Not that he owns this debate, nor even started it in truth nor that he has made too many points not already made many times by many others over the years including many still doing it here now.

But just because he swore soooo many many times that he slapped me into a rethink. So have we just let this all get out of hand and large parts of the review system clearly need something of a giant moral compass realignment.

Many reviewers clearly have great writing skills, knowledge and also act out of passion. They engage in the aim of creating greater awareness while some get caught up in hubris.

We all get the self evident business reason about this being a commercial thing otherwise the magazines would never have been viable but have we just accepted and let the message get too far off track. Has it become just too much of an accepted farce and as Mike said something of a yawn (which I really get also). But in the end is the kernel of essential truth here just undeniable... and if so what if anything should we do about it. Rather than just purging the priests can we do something now to resurrect the message?

I was there back in the day when we put HP up on the altar and maybe this proselytising the model of audio journalism is also at fault.

There are so many passionate believers. We look for prophets and in the end when we no longer believe we just angrily go in there and rip it all up all betrayed and righteous and angrily just pull down all the pillars in the temple. This isn’t a new story. But in the end we also just get what we pray for.

There is a crisis in all of journalism at the moment and I generally fear for the truth in a world of an increasingly deregulated and uneconomic media. The priests of truth would be the best thing we could aspire to annoint.

So rather than just burning all the high priests and pulling the whole thing apart if we want something truthfully better what could we now do to get that?

Could we just start being a bit more honest and praising people for what they do best and also letting them know the things they could just do a bit better. And letting them know we expect meaning and honesty and that we accept if it’s a paid comment we should be adult enough to understand that and we could all just give up on the pretense.

But do we really want to let go of the pretense... are we game enough... do we still believe? I believe we do.

Tao,
No reason to apologize. I respect all points of view. I am speaking both from a behavioral economic and a personal point of view. The bottom line is that anyone in this hobby who doesn't worship brands and looking for great gear to buy to plug into the system, needs comparative information to help lower the search costs. Because so many reviewers choose not to compare, they are filthy, disgusting scum.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, nice post. What you brought to our attention actually applies to all aspects of consumer consumption, not just in the audio realm. Same human behavior throughout. Well known to psychologists and those in the business of selling anything. Brand building and recognition is always a major factor in retail.
BTW, I like your CAT/ARC analogy, very true, IME.

Hi Davey,
I think it applies more to entertainment / luxury type of industries more to the other industries because of the behavioral reasons I give above. People don't just say I want to shop at Krogers or fly American airlines because everyone else is doing it.

 

[caesar]

I only quoted a small portion because of length...



Well .... maybe.

I will make a few close-to-boundary comments in the spirit of your rants (non-pejorative) throughout this entertaining thread.

On the assumption that people who acquired enough money to buy expensive audio brands (cars, houses, etc.) have some intelligence and general day-to-day smarts (in virtue of having done so) that those buyers are relatively self-aware and sufficiently sophisticated that they don't allow themselves to be guided by below-the-surface social herd influences. Some do buy for status, but that's different.

Maybe, just maybe, people continue to purchase "...the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh..." not because they are popular or pitched by magazines but because they actually like what they hear. Maybe such brands are popular not because of social herd factors but because they perform well. (Though there actually may be a McIntosh herd.) There may be economic influences at play moreso than social, such as: support, ease of access to repair, ease of resale.

Take Wilson for example. I suspect quite a few people find considerable appeal in having speakers shipped to their house then have one or more guys come and set them up. I don't know if you find psychological / social explanations in that.

I do remain confident that sociologists and psychologists will continue to tell use that sociological and psychological factors are in play.

I have had this conversation with Microstrip in the Wilson marketing thread. Of course, there are many people who buy Wilson because they love it. Buy not everyone.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...their-marketing-edge.4179/page-21#post-541637

 

[caesar]

Why do you care? If folks want to buy from smaller brands and enjoy them, that's fine. Others want to buy well-distributed products with dealerships that help out in time of problem or upgrade. There isn't a "better" or "worse" just a different path.

You seem to think a Wilson or Magico owner is an idiot or at minimum naive for no reason and with no justification - and you also assume many of them haven't heard a Vivid when most likely have at any show in the US or Munich. Not to mention Vivids look really weird (I'm being nice) and that's why nobody buys them.

And you keep bringing up CAT as a perfect example- well, Ken Stevens can't even get a friggin' website up in 2019. So don't put the onus on audiophiles about not knowing product when the manufacturer is in the internet dark age and relies on the telephone.

Feel free to add B&W and Sinus Fiber to the list of the big guys. And feel free to substitute Vivid with Nola, Gamut, Marten. etc. As I said above, in entertainment / luxury type industries we see a phenomena where the most popular brands are doing great, while everyone else is scraping by.

An additional interesting data point: as of late summer, Magnepan 30.7 had sold only 30-40 pairs of their incredible speakers, which pretty much blow away any wilson, magico, or sinus fiber, regardless of price.

Even Valin, who put magico on the marketing map admits the 30.7 is better than the $70K magico m3. Maggie is only $30K, roughly same price as magico s3 v2 and less than the latest wilson watt puppy. It's a shame, but cpnsumers in this industry go with the better marketed stuff in this industry rather than the best stuff.

 

[caesar]

And again, not all reviewers are filthy disgusting scum. Here's an blurb from one of the good guys, Michael Lavorgna of the Twittering Machines on the SChiit DAC:

"...
Don’t get me wrong, the Bifrost can do delicate, it’s just not as delicate and nuanced as some other DACs like the Chord Mojo. The other DACs I have in mind cost much more than the Bifrost and this a point to takeaway—overall, the Schiit Bifrost is one steal of deal considering how well it connects the listener to their music. Sure, you can get more nuance (Mojo), more air and color (BorderPatrol), and more of everything (totaldac). As the Grease Rat pointed out in the original Mad Max, “Speed’s just a question of money. How fast you wanna go?”
It’s worth noting that these three DACs—Bifrost, Mojo, BorderPatrol—are all appealing music makers, each in its own way. I see my job as a reviewer to get to know the sound of every component that comes through the barn and communicate its voice to the best of my abilities. I do not see it as my job to impose my set of sonic values on every component that comes through the barn and judge. If anything, that’s your job when shopping for a DAC and of course the people who actually make these things that make music need to have a rock solid understanding of their sonic goals. Reviewers sit in the middle and, ideally, report."


https://twitteringmachines.com/review-schiit-bifrost-multibit-dac/

I am sure the shoppers in this price point are grateful to Michael for saving them time!

 

[KeithR]

An additional interesting data point: as of late summer, Magnepan 30.7 had sold only 30-40 pairs of their incredible speakers, which pretty much blow away any wilson, magico, or sinus fiber, regardless of price.

Apples and oranges. Panels are a very tough sell aesthetically, especially the 30.7 which requires a *huge* room. the speaker hasn't been exactly getting rave reviews from others who heard them in the 30.7 tour either. Many people prefer dynamic drivers, regardless of price, too.

You ditch on JV all the time but now use him as justification.

 

[caesar]

Apples and oranges. Panels are a very tough sell aesthetically, especially the 30.7 which requires a *huge* room. the speaker hasn't been exactly getting rave reviews from others who heard them in the 30.7 tour either. Many people prefer dynamic drivers, regardless of price, too.

You ditch on JV all the time but now use him as justification.

A few points:
1. If you read my Magnepan thread, the 30.7 can work in a mid-large room. Their marketeer (I can't recall his name, but have his picture in the thread) sets them up in a day or so. So some demos work better than others.
2. Valin, as all reviewers, will be reviewed fairly. If he's wrong, it will be mentioned. If he's right, it will be mentioned also.
3. Finally, if the speaker sounds more "real", who cares what technology it is? Why follow the herd?

 

[DaveyF]

Caesar, there is a lot of truth to what Keith states above. The 30.7, while an excellent speaker, brings with it a host of issues. Those issues are well known to Wendell Diller and most a'philes! The biggest issue is the room requirement of the speaker...which mandates a very large room indeed. Most folks that can accommodate a speaker of this size, probably already have large high performance speakers. The other issue, one that I think most Maggie's have, is that the speaker needs a very stout amp upstream to sound its best. Again, the mid powered tube amp or ss amp need not apply! Add up these factors and the resulting sales aren't that surprising...to anyone...including, I suspect, Magnepan themselves.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Caeser, as Keith and Davey point out there are many reasons why the big new Maggie may not have a universal market nor broad appeal to all top end buyers and while it’s potentials may be great it’s constraints may also factor in.

The 30.7 touring launch sounded like a big, fun adventure but garnered mixed reviews along the way and then I heard some mention maybe of also a recent modification to control the mid bass level of the speaker may indicate as much that Wendell also learnt a bit along the way about how the new 30.7 works with a variety of rooms and that it still needed some further development.

So the jury might still be out on the 30.7 and it very may well still establish itself as a summit top end statement Maggie the way the Tympani did back in its day.

Either way, Maggie buyers are always a bit of a niche within a niche among the panel buying set... and talking SET I just wish Wendell had gone to town on it and used rare earth neodymiums and made for a high efficiency (read super SET friendly) statement ribbon monolith... now that would definitely be worth the price of an upgrade. Maybe a 30.8 SE, 20.8 SE and 3.8 SE (or Special Earth-magnets) in piano black gloss and rosewood bespoke joinery frames as a truly fitting triumph to his life’s great work.

So given that Jonathon Valin has always had a collection of Maggies his unqualified support of the 30.7 may also simply be because he just loves the Maggie sound and that he also wanted to add to his collection of these beasts.

 

[CKKeung]

Caeser, as Keith and Davey point out there are many reasons why the big new Maggie may not have a universal market nor broad appeal to all top end buyers and while it’s potentials may be great it’s constraints may also factor in.

The 30.7 touring launch sounded like a big, fun adventure but garnered mixed reviews along the way and then I heard some mention maybe of also a recent modification to control the mid bass level of the speaker may indicate as much that Wendell also learnt a bit along the way about how the new 30.7 works with a variety of rooms and that it still needed some further development.

So the jury might still be out on the 30.7 and it very may well still establish itself as a summit top end statement Maggie the way the Tympani did back in its day.

Either way, Maggie buyers are always a bit of a niche within a niche among the panel buying set... and talking SET I just wish Wendell had gone to town on it and used rare earth neodymiums and made for a high efficiency (read super SET friendly) statement ribbon monolith... now that would definitely be worth the price of an upgrade. Maybe a 30.8 SE, 20.8 SE and 3.8 SE (or Special Earth-magnets) in piano black gloss and rosewood bespoke joinery frames as a truly fitting triumph to his life’s great work.

So given that Jonathon Valin has always had a collection of Maggies his unqualified support of the 30.7 may also simply be because he just loves the Maggie sound and that he also wanted to add to his collection of these beasts.

There isn't any 30.7 owner in Hong Kong yet.
The mid-bass issue is a concern.
Please update us what plans/action do Maggie have.
Thanks!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Even Valin, who put magico on the marketing map admits the 30.7 is better than the $70K magico m3. Maggie is only $30K, roughly same price as magico s3 v2 and less than the latest wilson watt puppy. It's a shame, but cpnsumers in this industry go with the better marketed stuff in this industry rather than the best stuff.

Caesar,

IMHO you are again just seeing the tip of the iceberg and ignoring many important facts. I do not have experience with the 30.7 but listened several times to the 3.7 and 20.7. Nothing from what I have read in many reviews confirms this absolute superiority of the 30.7. People refer it is very critical of positioning and set-up, even the designer refers that "There are so many ways to screw them up.”

After reading about the great sound some Audio Research people had with Maggies in their rooms a couple of years ago I researched about the 30.7 . My main concern was that previous models of Magnepan I owned - including Tympani iV needed to be played at loud levels to sound realistic and I do not favor such levels. Everyone with spoke with told me it is still an issue, the reviews - see links included in https://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_30.7 - now confirm it.

Other people already referred to size, looks and specificity of the partnering equipment. For example, I feel I could not integrate aesthetically the 30.7 in my room. Just to say that IMHO most consumers are wise and pick what they prefer, not what some other audiophiles think they should prefer. Surely YMMV.

And yes, surely they are a great speaker the 30.7 was awarded co-winner of the TAS “Overall Product of the Year 2017” along with the $685,000 Wilson WAMM Master Chronosonic.

 

[tima]

I have had this conversation with Microstrip in the Wilson marketing thread. Of course, there are many people who buy Wilson because they love it. Buy not everyone.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...their-marketing-edge.4179/page-21#post-541637

I looked at that post only to find that I "liked" it on initial reading. It really was entertaining. The wealth factor that you touch on is interesting though perhaps close to verboten. There are people who can afford to make (sometimes very) expensive mistakes. Though, as I think you suggest, herding is unlimited by economic strata.

I suspect there are as may audiophiles who want to separate from the pack by buying or discussing arcane products as there are those who follow in other's footsteps.

 

[sefischer1]

The MSB Reference DAC is one elegant piece of gear that is a pleasure to touch, look at, fondle, and listen to. Perhaps that's all that's needed?

 

[Al M.]

The MSB Reference DAC is one elegant piece of gear that is a pleasure to touch, look at, fondle, and listen to. Perhaps that's all that's needed?

If i want to pay for looks, I buy a nice painting. If the DAC sounds great, that's another matter.

 

[rsrzr]

last night i received my Jan 19' Absolute Sound Magazine, and there on the cover is the MSB Reference Dac.

i still get Stereophile and Absolute Sound in the mail, and must admit to mostly just scanning them here and there and rarely reading any review from start to finish. it's just not what i spend my time doing anymore. but an actual MSB review is pretty rare, and obviously as an MSB Select II owner, i was a little curious what Mr. Valin might have to say about it.

Jonathan makes no direct A/B comparisons with other digital, but does offer how he thinks the MSB Ref is somehow different than other digital he has encountered, both relative to other digital and compared to his vinyl. his points are not altogether different than my own postings on that subject relative to my Select II, which is to be expected. Mr. Valin does wade in to the whole MQA issue and comes out very positively on the side of MQA......which mirrors my own MSB <-> MQA experience. he also complains about streaming and wifi in his home which is curious since streaming ideally should be over a network and only be controlled by wifi. interesting.

overall a very positive review.

Absolute Sound also named the MSB Reference DAC and Transport their 'Overall Product of the Year'.

Congrats to the whole team at MSB and Vince Galbo, their director of sales, for the great review and the Product of the Year Award.

Valin’s Reporting has taken a nose dive from years ago. His reporting on the Maggie 30.7 was so flawed and if he thinks these are the best speakers, he should give up reviewing. I heard these and they were terrible sounding and friends heard them at multiple locations and didn’t like them either.
He is biased towards vinyl, he should not be reviewing anything digital.
If you notice, most items he likes are always the best of the best.
How can a reviewer state over time that product x is better than product y that he reviewed year(s) ago? To make this statement correctly, every piece of equipment and room has to be exactly what it was for the initial review. These reviewers change equipment more than people change their clothes. How often do you hear a reviewer state so and so product is their new reference. IMO, any new review that compares an older product with different equipment or not using the same room, is worthless

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . if [Valin] thinks these are the best speakers, he should give up reviewing. I heard these and they were terrible sounding and friends heard them at multiple locations and didn’t like them either.
. . .

Welcome to WBF!

But, respectfully, the above excerpt would rank as flawed logic and assumptive and prejudiced to many members here at WBF.

The fact that you and some of your friends did not care for a speaker does not make wrong or incorrect someone else’s enjoyment of them. This is a subjective preference hobby. You are not “right” and Valin is not “wrong” in any objective, provable sense. (flawed logic)

You are assuming the system was set up well. You are assuming the speakers were properly driven. You are assuming it was the speakers you did not like, when perhaps the sonic flaws were attributable to one or more other components in the system. (assumptive and prejudiced)

Please know that I am not questioning in any way what you heard, or your subjective sonic impressions of what you heard.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Valin’s Reporting has taken a nose dive from years ago. His reporting on the Maggie 30.7 was so flawed and if he thinks these are the best speakers, he should give up reviewing. I heard these and they were terrible sounding and friends heard them at multiple locations and didn’t like them either.
He is biased towards vinyl, he should not be reviewing anything digital.
If you notice, most items he likes are always the best of the best.
How can a reviewer state over time that product x is better than product y that he reviewed year(s) ago? To make this statement correctly, every piece of equipment and room has to be exactly what it was for the initial review. These reviewers change equipment more than people change their clothes. How often do you hear a reviewer state so and so product is their new reference. IMO, any new review that compares an older product with different equipment or not using the same room, is worthless

we all do this ( How can a reviewer state over time that product x is better than product y that he reviewed year(s) ago?) every day. you and your friends did it when you passed judgement on the Maggies. was your stated standard of.....every piece of equipment and room has to be exactly what it was.....met judging those speakers? of course not. you and your friends used your experience and deductive reasoning to apply a judgement. yet you had no hesitation in stating that opinion very strongly. without qualification.

not saying Valin's application of his listening memory and his own listening system and reference are up to your standards, but if we are choosing between his and you and your friends judgments then we might all have an opinion on that.

if we line up all the mainstream reviews in the last 10 years and apply some sort of objective judgment on the points you make it might help us to determine which ones are less or more helpful......or......it might be more like (as i previously wrote) the obligatory business seminar lunch where we lower our expectations and hope we find something we can use or maybe even like and not get our panties in a bunch.

 

[KeithR]

The MSB Reference DAC is one elegant piece of gear that is a pleasure to touch, look at, fondle, and listen to. Perhaps that's all that's needed?

I would add its much better looking than the previous gen IV/V units

 

[DaveyF]

Welcome to WBF!

But, respectfully, the above excerpt would rank as flawed logic and assumptive and prejudiced to many members here at WBF.

The fact that you and some of your friends did not care for a speaker does not make wrong or incorrect someone else’s enjoyment of them. This is a subjective preference hobby. You are not “right” and Valin is not “wrong” in any objective, provable sense. (flawed logic)

You are assuming the system was set up well. You are assuming the speakers were properly driven. You are assuming it was the speakers you did not like, when perhaps the sonic flaws were attributable to one or more other components in the system. (assumptive and prejudiced)

Please know that I am not questioning in any way what you heard, or your subjective sonic impressions of what you heard.

+1000

This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time, perfectly phrased and 100% on point! IMHO.

Interestingly, I was one of the folks who had an opportunity to listen to Wendell Diller's Maggie 30.7 roadshow. IMO, the Maggie 30.7's were excellent and a significant improvement on all Maggies that I had heard before. Many of Valin's review points were exactly what i heard; and I am no big fan of J.Valin or his reviewing style.

 

[sefischer1]

If i want to pay for looks, I buy a nice painting. If the DAC sounds great, that's another matter.

I'm sorry, the dismissive tone of your response sounds a little elitist. If you were into exotic cars, would you buy a Ferrari that ran well but looked like a POS? When you are motivated to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, the sonic performance is obviously a prerequisite. After that, the execution must be in line with the price. For some, the order is reversed. Perhaps you might buy a piece for 30K built on a slab of ply-wood as long as it sounded good but most of us wouldn't. The appeal of any execution is, of course, subjective but most of us would find the ply-wood to be unappealing. I'll elaborate a bit more. Back in the 70s Mark Levinson shook up the audio world by introducing products built to a standard previously reserved for military hardware. Was it necessary? No, but it was was pleasing to use. The competent sonics and reliability hopefully came as an extension of the care in execution.