Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award

[Al M.]

I'm sorry, the dismissive tone of your response sounds a little elitist. If you were into exotic cars, would you buy a Ferrari that ran well but looked like a POS?

Did I say something should look like a POS?

But I agree with you on sports cars. They should look great, not just drive great.

For stereo equipment I care less. Incidentally, I also happen not to be enamoured with the MSB look. I don't hate it, but I don't particularly love it either. If I decided I want an MSB, I'd buy it for its performance.

I don't particularly love the look of my Octave RE 320 amp either. I like it well enough, but I bought the amp strictly for performance.

 

[DaveyF]

I'm sorry, the dismissive tone of your response sounds a little elitist. If you were into exotic cars, would you buy a Ferrari that ran well but looked like a POS? When you are motivated to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, the sonic performance is obviously a prerequisite. After that, the execution must be in line with the price. For some, the order is reversed. Perhaps you might buy a piece for 30K built on a slab of ply-wood as long as it sounded good but most of us wouldn't. The appeal of any execution is, of course, subjective but most of us would find the ply-wood to be unappealing. I'll elaborate a bit more. Back in the 70s Mark Levinson shook up the audio world by introducing products built to a standard previously reserved for military hardware. Was it necessary? No, but it was was pleasing to use. The competent sonics and reliability hopefully came as an extension of the care in execution.

Steve, my modded Rowland model 8T is built like a brick house. IMHO, this has insured a number of desirable results..To this day it is a product that everyone who has seen it is impressed by the quality, which speaks volumes. But here's the thing that many fail to realize, the built quality results in an ability to not only have a long life, but to also insure some ability to endure fault scenario's. As an example, I recently hooked up the amp in a faulty manner ( not thinking on that day, so i hooked up the speakers with the outputs essentially crossed over)..this resulted in a near short on the left channel. I believe that many other lesser products would have in fact shorted and caused damage to the internals....not this amp! Instead, the left channel went dead...until i figured out the problem and corrected the hook-up. Once this was done, no damage whatsoever!! How many other amps can you say that about. I believe it is Jeff Rowland's over engineering of this amp ( inside and outside) that gave me the result. Kudos to JR design.

 

[sefischer1]

Steve, my modded Rowland model 8T is built like a brick house. IMHO, this has insured a number of desirable results..To this day it is a product that everyone who has seen it is impressed by the quality, which speaks volumes. But here's the thing that many fail to realize, the built quality results in an ability to not only have a long life, but to also insure some ability to endure fault scenario's. As an example, I recently hooked up the amp in a faulty manner ( not thinking on that day, so i hooked up the speakers with the outputs essentially crossed over)..this resulted in a near short on the left channel. I believe that many other lesser products would have in fact shorted and caused damage to the internals....not this amp! Instead, the left channel went dead...until i figured out the problem and corrected the hook-up. Once this was done, no damage whatsoever!! How many other amps can you say that about. I believe it is Jeff Rowland's over engineering of this amp ( inside and outside) that gave me the result. Kudos to JR design.

As an EE, who has worked in Aerospace as well as the RF/cellular industry, I've seen well engineered stuff. At shows I see electronics that seem to have been put together by folks who pulled a design from a schematic printout obtained someplace, hooked it up, powered it on, saw no smoke, exclaimed: "This is the best thing ever!" and then go off to sell it. There are practical solutions in well designed equipment which server to perfect and improve a design: symmetry, distribution of components, failure mode analysis, etc. I have admired Rowlands product design for many years. Some of his latest creations are among the most beautiful. Is a CNC machined solid block of aluminum necessary? I don't know, I suspect it doesn't hurt, and it probably helps in the areas of vibration, but it sure is beautiful as a monument to the inspiration of man.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Music can be a monument of inspiration... not sure Rowlands gear makes it so much as art. Inflation or bling maybe... but there’s not exactly any quiet restrained function following form going on here. Each to their own...but more just shiny is the way I see this kind of gear but like I said each to their own.

 

[pke10000]

I got an interesting time to compare MSB's Reference-3-gear with Lampizator's Pacific.

MSB was realistic, authority, dark, ...
Lampi was clean(no partikel), smooth, bright, ...

 

[bonzo75]

Are those RK 300b? They are the least good sounding of the Pac valves. And I personally rate GG much higher, though many of the Lampi community prefer the Pac (Some prefer the GG). They are different sounds and you need to rotate valves.

 

[justubes]

How are you liking it, will it be a permanent addition for you?

 

[pke10000]

Are those RK 300b? They are the least good sounding of the Pac valves. And I personally rate GG much higher, though many of the Lampi community prefer the Pac (Some prefer the GG). They are different sounds and you need to rotate valves.

Yes it was 300b, but I'm not sure the brand. Host just said it is special tube of Lampi, no more orderable.

 

[pke10000]

How are you liking it, will it be a permanent addition for you?

No audition.
I saw those when I visited my dealer to buy my new speakers, and listened with Rockport Atria and YG Heiley2.
Both sound of dacs were great also, but totally different. I'm sure anyone cannot say which one is a winner.

 

[Ric Schultz]

What something is mounted on and what feet you use can completely change the sound. Notice the glass? shelf underneath the Pacific. This is completely different from what is under the MSB. You need to use the same audiophile feet and shelf......just as a starter.....then tweak from there. Some components like certain types of feet and shelving. This is super important at any price point.....but mandatory at this price point.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I got an interesting time to compare MSB's Reference-3-gear with Lampizator's Pacific.

MSB was realistic, authority, dark, ...
Lampi was clean(no partikel), smooth, bright, ...

View attachment 48390

Now THIS is interesting: a direct MSB to Lampi comparison.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No audition.
I saw those when I visited my dealer to buy my new speakers, and listened with Rockport Atria and YG Heiley2.
Both sound of dacs were great also, but totally different. I'm sure anyone cannot say which one is a winner.

Please tell us your detailed listening impressions of the Rockport Atria versus the YG Haley 2 (this is for KeithR). What were the associated components of the system?

 

[bonzo75]

Now THIS is interesting: a direct MSB to Lampi comparison.

It's not, because the valves weren't changed.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It's not, because the valves weren't changed.

Something is wrong if a product’s stock tubes render it ineligible or disqualify it for a direct comparison with a competing product.

 

[bonzo75]

Something is wrong if a product’s stock tubes render it ineligible or disqualify it for a direct comparison with a competing product.

No that is the product. There is nothing like stock tubes. Do you get a turntable with a stock cart?

For each downstream electronics, what tubes you have will affect can make it sound bright, forward, limpid, or awesome. The fact that other digital cannot be changed and is fixed, is a problem with other digital. With analog you change gain and impedance and match cart to arm and phono all day long and you don't see an issue?

That said, usually three usual suspects are required and can be tried quickly to see what is the best fit

It is not voiced for a particular valve unless so requested

 

[Ron Resnick]

No that is the product. There is nothing like stock tubes. Do you get a turntable with a stock cart?

. . .

I don’t think this is a valid analogy. A turntable does not come with a stock cartridge because those are two separate components. A turntable itself is a complete component. If a turntable came without a platter, that would be a different matter. A car comes with stock OEM wheels of some kind so it can function immediately as a transportation machine, although aftermarket wheel replacements can be attached.

A tube DAC tube must come with tubes so that it functions and satisfies its innate purpose, just like a hybrid tube amplifier must come with tubes for the first gain stage. I just think the turntable analogy is inapposite.

 

[bonzo75]

It's fine if you don't think it is. Next time you visit audioquattir be a bit open minded to listen to digital. See what changes in the valves have. Then change then output valve in his power amp, and your preference of the Lampi valves might change as the downstream amp changes. We can chat on this topic after that. Otherwise we might as well be discussing cricket

 

[pke10000]

Please tell us your detailed listening impressions of the Rockport Atria versus the YG Haley 2 (this is for KeithR). What were the associated components of the system?

Sorry! I'm a big fan of Rockport, using Miras and planing to upgrade to Atrias.
My comparision would be not fair.

I listened Heiley2.2 & Atria with MSB Reference transport & dac, ARC Ref10 pre, Dagostino Progression Mono.
All system setting was fit for Heiley2.2 which has YG's new tweeter then became very sweet high like as Sonja2.2
It has very tight and deep bass, good dynamics, unlimited high.
If you are a musician, I'm sure YG is one of the best.

Atria has many reverb and smooth, but no clear.... no dynamics.
The host changed some cabling and toe-in angles, ..... dynamics became better.
After then, To me, the reverb fills the room and surrounded my seat. and smooth makes me more comfortable even digital source.
As we know Atria is just half price of Heiley, but I felt it is not a lower quality.
I felt Rockport has its own taste, and it will be better in my house.

Thanks

 

[PeterA]

It's fine if you don't think it is. Next time you visit audioquattir be a bit open minded to listen to digital. See what changes in the valves have. Then change then output valve in his power amp, and your preference of the Lampi valves might change as the downstream amp changes. We can chat on this topic after that. Otherwise we might as well be discussing cricket

Ked, are you suggesting that a DAC is more like a pair of speakers than it is like a turntable? In other words, it has to be tried with many different tube sets to optimize it to the system like speakers need to be repeatedly repositioned to optimize them to the room? Do you feel DACs are like electronics where each component must be revoiced with aftermarket footers and power cords to customize it for the individual listener?

I could see you using your above argument to explain any differences you and someone else might have about the sound of a particular component and telling them that unless they have tried all the various permutations of something - tubes, footers, cords - , you can't possibly discuss the sound of that component.

Ron makes a good point about test driving a car. Would you suggest that people demand trying different sets of tires at the dealership before pronouncing an opinion about how the car feels on the road?

 

[parkcaka]

You can roll tubes on Kondo or Shindo amps but they already come with great tubes. Tubes that give you almost the full potential. Not full but almost. If I’m buying a 30K flagship DAC from a company and it comes with “stock” tubes that doesn’t give a solid idea of how that DAC performs, there is something very very wrong and unprofessional about that company. Lampi is a serious company so I think we should be testing the DAC with stock tubes to have an idea.