Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award

[Mike Lavigne]

I got an interesting time to compare MSB's Reference-3-gear with Lampizator's Pacific.

MSB was realistic, authority, dark, ...
Lampi was clean(no partikel), smooth, bright, ...

pke10000; thank you and i appreciate this feedback.

was there analog (vinyl or tape) in the test/dealer system? and how did the two dacs compare to the analog? which was closer overall?

i'm assuming the Lampi description being 'clean (no partikel) smooth' refers to the perception of higher degrees of 'liquidity'? some gear has the right balance of liquidity, but some can have it to the degree of a sameness overlay. which would you describe the Lampi? just the right for you?

and if you could, can you expand on your use of 'dark' and 'bright'?

and if you prefer to just let your comments be as they are then i understand, and again thanks.

 

[christoph]

You can roll tubes on Kondo or Shindo amps but they already come with great tubes. Tubes that give you almost the full potential. Not full but almost. If I’m buying a 30K flagship DAC from a company and it comes with “stock” tubes that doesn’t give a solid idea of how that DAC performs, there is something very very wrong and unprofessional about that company. Lampi is a serious company so I think we should be testing the DAC with stock tubes to have an idea.

You can order your Lampi DAC with a suggested set of tubes that work very good in a variety of Systems as an excellent "no hassle-turn-key-DAC"

But you can also order your Lampi DAC with your tubes of choice, if you know beforehand what you want and so safe this way on tubes you know you don't need or want. Or you order it without any tubes at all if you have a stash of tubes already.

As a Lampi owner you don't HAVE to go on a quest for the best matching tubes in your System, but you CAN and that is one of the many beauties with Lampi DACs

 

[bonzo75]

No not at all Peter, You got me completely wrong.

After market cables and footers can be used for everything and are not what I am referring to. They are an external part of the component, not an integral part

Tubes are an integral part of the Lampi dac. It is made that way. For example, aesthetix and Allnic phono stages are voiced with specific valves. The fact that they change a lot due to valve rolling is another matter (and as per Mik the aesthetix needs to be rewired as well). Personally, for me the valves here are an integral part but according to the designer they are stock

The Lampi dac is not voiced with a valve. There are a minimum of three valves I would suggest that should be used for every Lampi demo. So if it is to be tried at yours, quickly see which of the three works. If it then goes to Al, see which of the three works (could possibly be a different one to yours), and so on

Footers and cables are a separate topic. You asked is it like a pair of speakers... Well only if a speaker came with the ability for you to take an option between different sounding drivers and allowed you easy swap to choose.

The reason people don't appreciate this is other dacs do not allow you to change an integral part.

With the vivaldi stack, I would guess the cables are an integral part of the voicing

 

[bonzo75]

You can roll tubes on Kondo or Shindo amps but they already come with great tubes. Tubes that give you almost the full potential. Not full but almost. If I’m buying a 30K flagship DAC from a company and it comes with “stock” tubes that doesn’t give a solid idea of how that DAC performs, there is something very very wrong and unprofessional about that company. Lampi is a serious company so I think we should be testing the DAC with stock tubes to have an idea.

Read again. It doesn't come with stock tubes. Just like an analog system doesn't come with stock components. Less complex here, much less complex, and takes 30 mins for a guy who knows what he is going to give you a proper flavor

 

[pke10000]

pke10000; thank you and i appreciate this feedback.

was there analog (vinyl or tape) in the test/dealer system? and how did the two dacs compare to the analog? which was closer overall?

i'm assuming the Lampi description being 'clean (no partikel) smooth' refers to the perception of higher degrees of 'liquidity'? some gear has the right balance of liquidity, but some can have it to the degree of a sameness overlay. which would you describe the Lampi? just the right for you?

and if you could, can you expand on your use of 'dark' and 'bright'?

and if you prefer to just let your comments be as they are then i understand, and again thanks.

Hi Mike Lavigne
Sorry for my poor vocabulary in english.
You are correct! Liquidity is more prefer to describe Lampi. Msb is very good but I've never felt as liquid.

Dark and bright means the color of background. Wilsonbenesch Cadinal, Bat amps, and some cables have such a black colored background. Msb's select and reference are a little similar. Some people think it is high class, even I don't.
Lampi was not colored, so I said bright, it would make some mis-understanding as cheap sound. Never. Lampi also has an expensive sound.

And there was a Kronos pro turntable with an octave phono. I'd ever listned it and very impressed. But I didn't compare it at this time, because I was more interested in speakers.
Next time, I visit there, I'll try to compare those.

Thanks

 

[bonzo75]

pke10000; thank you and i appreciate this feedback.

was there analog (vinyl or tape) in the test/dealer system? and how did the two dacs compare to the analog? which was closer overall?

i'm assuming the Lampi description being 'clean (no partikel) smooth' refers to the perception of higher degrees of 'liquidity'? some gear has the right balance of liquidity, but some can have it to the degree of a sameness overlay. which would you describe the Lampi? just the right for you?

and if you could, can you expand on your use of 'dark' and 'bright'?

and if you prefer to just let your comments be as they are then i understand, and again thanks.

Sorry, but that post was a bit too mature for the forum

 

[microstrip]

Ked, are you suggesting that a DAC is more like a pair of speakers than it is like a turntable? In other words, it has to be tried with many different tube sets to optimize it to the system like speakers need to be repeatedly repositioned to optimize them to the room? Do you feel DACs are like electronics where each component must be revoiced with aftermarket footers and power cords to customize it for the individual listener?
(...)

IMHO this is one particular case where we would need measurements and technical details to help understanding the behavior of a component. All I have read about the Lampizator suggests very large sound quality differences when swapping tubes - people seem to use tubes with very different electrical parameters. As far as I see it, the Lampizator is tuned to the owner preference manipulating harmonic distortion.

Speaker sonic differences are mainly due to frequency response and dispersion - IMHO not the type of difference we usually get changing electronics or cartridges.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO this is one particular case where we would need measurements and technical details to help understanding the behavior of a component. All I have read about the Lampizator suggests very large sound quality differences when swapping tubes - but people seem to use tubes with very different electrical parameters. As far as I see it, the Lampizator is tuned to the owner preference manipulating harmonic distortion.

Speaker sonic differences are mainly due to frequency response and dispersion - IMHO not the type of difference we usually get changing electronics or cartridges.

No, some valves can be for harmonic distortion, and that is not the change I am referring to, i.e a bit aggressive, a bit valvey, a bit midrangey or bassy etc. I am referring to a change due to the electrical matching as different valves are giving out different outputs. So if you change the preamp, you might likely require a different valve

 

[Ron Resnick]

It's fine if you don't think it is. Next time you visit audioquattir be a bit open minded to listen to digital. See what changes in the valves have. Then change then output valve in his power amp, and your preference of the Lampi valves might change as the downstream amp changes. We can chat on this topic after that. Otherwise we might as well be discussing cricket

I am not doubting you in the slightest that changing the valves in a Lampi changes the sound in a Lampi. I am just saying that that is an answer to a different question.

I’m simply suggesting that when you buy a finished product from a manufacturer you should be able to compare that product directly to a competing product, and not have to treat it immediately in some way as unfinished or disqualified from competition.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . The Lampi dac is not voiced with a valve. . . .

I don’t understand this. How can this be?

The designer must plug some tube into the socket during the design process to hear what his DAC sounds like, and then again later to hear what his DAC sounds like as a finished product before he releases it to the public for purchase.

 

[bonzo75]

I am not doubting you in the slightest that changing the valves in a Lampi changes the sound in a Lampi. I am just saying that that is an answer to a different question.

I’m simply suggesting that when you buy a finished product from a manufacturer you should be able to compare that product directly to a competing product, and not have to treat it immediately in some way as unfinished or disqualified from competition.

I. Know you aren't doubting that it changes sound but when did this become a rule of being able to compare directly without set up? You have the rule in analog, or just because other digital isn't that flexible?

And, no product is that way. Mik's exact words are that aesthetix (which he uses and likes) is the most flexible to valves change. And in other products the designers actually pretend to voice to a stock valve. Here he is giving you the benefit of tuning, so it is perplexing to see that being turned around as a negative

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t understand this. How can this be?

The designer must plug some tube into the socket during the design process to hear what his DAC sounds like, and then again later to hear what his DAC sounds like as a finished product before he releases it to the public for purchase.

He tries with many valves. You can then see how it sounds like in yours. Like I said, if a dealer doesn't leave a client with at least three pairs to try or doesn't voice then himself and leave you with the ideal pair, it is his incompetence

 

[Ron Resnick]

He tries with many valves. You can then see how it sounds like in yours. Like I said, if a dealer doesn't leave a client with at least three pairs to try or doesn't voice then himself and leave you with the ideal pair, it is his incompetence

I. Know you aren't doubting that it changes sound but when did this become a rule of being able to compare directly without set up? You have the rule in analog, or just because other digital isn't that flexible?

And, no product is that way. Mik's exact words are that aesthetix (which he uses and likes) is the most flexible to valves change. And in other products the designers actually pretend to voice to a stock valve. Here he is giving you the benefit of tuning, so it is perplexing to see that being turned around as a negative

Jim White absolutely for sure experimented with different tubes in the Io to “voice” it for the sound he wanted before deciding on stock tubes which are inside new Io units before they go out the door of the factory.

 

[Ron Resnick]

He tries with many valves. You can then see how it sounds like in yours. Like I said, if a dealer doesn't leave a client with at least three pairs to try or doesn't voice then himself and leave you with the ideal pair, it is his incompetence

I just checked the Lampizator website out of curiosity and, on the 2017 price list, there are options for slightly different circuit topologies and different rectifier diodes, but I do not see options to select different valves to be delivered inside the unit right out of the factory.

 

[bonzo75]

I just checked the Lampizator website out of curiosity and, on the 2017 price list, there are options for slightly different circuit topologies and different rectifier diodes, but I do not see options to select different valves to be delivered inside the unit right out of the factory.

When a lampi is ordered, you get one pair with the cost. You can choose yours. You can ask for additional valves, or you can say don't send me any valve and reduce the cost. The Lampi community will then lend you enough to audition so that you find out which one works best, or you can spend on three pairs, or the dealer who sells you will loan you while setting up, just like a TT dealer will help you with a cart set up, just that Lampi is simpler.

 

[KeithR]

The reason people don't appreciate this is other dacs do not allow you to change an integral part.

this is no different from a tube preamp or similar type gear, so not much to appreciate as "unique"

 

[KeithR]

He tries with many valves. You can then see how it sounds like in yours. Like I said, if a dealer doesn't leave a client with at least three pairs to try or doesn't voice then himself and leave you with the ideal pair, it is his incompetence

dealers don't stock tubes for preamps or amps, either. its not incompetance...Lampi is no different.

 

[bonzo75]

dealers don't stock tubes for preamps or amps, either. its not incompetance...Lampi is no different.

No read again. Tube pre are never produced for you to roll tubes. With Lampi it's a conscious decision. You can do tube rolling in pre if you so itch, some do, many don't. With Lampi, all will roll to optimize. How well they optimize will depend on either their initiative, or how good the dealer is, no different from how one optimizes an analog set up, just different

 

[microstrip]

No, some valves can be for harmonic distortion, and that is not the change I am referring to, i.e a bit aggressive, a bit valvey, a bit midrangey or bassy etc. I am referring to a change due to the electrical matching as different valves are giving out different outputs. So if you change the preamp, you might likely require a different valve

Technically, different outputs will also generate different spectra of distortions - we are surely addressing simple single ended configurations without negative feedback. If the difference was only output level using an attenuator would give similar sound quality, not a night and day difference.

 

[bonzo75]

Technically, different outputs will also generate different spectra of distortions - we are surely addressing simple single ended configurations without negative feedback. If the difference was only output level using an attenuator would give similar sound quality, not a night and day difference.

It's not just db gain. It changes the drive from limpid to galloping