KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[bazelio]

Even a cheap Foster full range whizzer is going to be incredibly lively. I'm not saying whether or not they're a good listen. What's unique and interesting with the Reflector Monitors is the lack of a crossover. This may well breathe life into these drivers, and they ought to be phase coherent (which Magicos are not - not the floorstanders I've heard anyhow). And that latter point is likely significant.

Al has invited me for a listen offline. It's contingent on my as of yet unsure travel plans. I'd really like to hear these unique monitors, and rumor has it that Al may have a new DAC by then as well. I hope it comes together.

 

[Al M.]

Even a cheap Foster full range whizzer is going to be incredibly lively. I'm not saying whether or not they're a good listen. What's unique and interesting with the Reflector Monitors is the lack of a crossover. This may well breathe life into these drivers, and they ought to be phase coherent (which Magicos are not - not the floorstanders I've heard anyhow). And that latter point is likely significant.

Al has invited me for a listen offline. It's contingent on my as of yet unsure travel plans. I'd really like to hear these unique monitors, and rumor has it that Al may have a new DAC by then as well. I hope it comes together.

I hope it comes together as well, Bazelio. How do you hear that Magico floorstanders are not phase coherent?

 

[bazelio]

I hope it comes together as well, Bazelio. How do you hear that Magico floorstanders are not phase coherent?

The Devialet phase alignment demo is pretty revealing. This is how I heard it back and forth before/after. The Stereophile measurements of the speaker confirmed the phase relationship of the drivers as designed, and the Devialet algo doesn't seem to be a gimmick.

 

[D2Girls]

I’m an hour drive from Reference 3a factory... I should mosey on down there when it comes time to start auditioning. I already contacted them like 2 years ago when I was looking for a replacement bookshelf for my ls50 and they invited me to their showroom. Apparently they have one.

 

[Al M.]

The Devialet phase alignment demo is pretty revealing. This is how I heard it back and forth before/after. The Stereophile measurements of the speaker confirmed the phase relationship of the drivers as designed, and the Devialet algo doesn't seem to be a gimmick.

So how does phase relationship between drivers manifest itself in audible terms?

 

[Al M.]

I’m an hour drive from Reference 3a factory... I should mosey on down there when it comes time to start auditioning. I already contacted them like 2 years ago when I was looking for a replacement bookshelf for my ls50 and they invited me to their showroom. Apparently they have one.

Cool, being so close to the factory. Interesting that they have a showroom.

 

[bazelio]

So how does phase relationship between drivers manifest itself in audible terms?

There's no single answer. It will always depend on the waves that are interacting and how they interact.

 

[Folsom]

Single drivers don't have perfect phase. It's not possible. If you have a cone that far from center to play a bass note, and is also playing a high frequency note, you won't get phase alignment. In fact the higher frequencies get bounced by the lower ones. You might call it "lively" but I find it fatigueing, which is the general consensus. But they don't have changes in total phase from a crossover. I think most of their magic stems from their rollercoaster frequency responses. The one thing single drivers do have is that they are transient perfect, which is something 1st order crossovers also basically are.

Phase coherent is a marketing term, for the reason above. The only thing you can really do is not have a crossover to have a big phase change. Every order of crossover is a higher degree of total phase change. At 4rth order you've gone 360*. If you want to call that coherent.... I guess you can but I don't. Plus the drivers have their own phase shift at different degrees.

Phase problems number one effect is a comb filtering. In some cases maybe it would make it sound like multiple sources, but it's not that likely. It can sound edgier or slightly fatiguing in some cases, but that's not always the speakers fault.

Magico and other speakers may sound different, but because of phase? I kinda doubt that's what you're hearing.

 

[PeterA]

There's no single answer. It will always depend on the waves that are interacting and how they interact.

Bazelio, could you please describe what you heard when you auditioned the Magico speakers, and do you attribute that to the phase issue between drivers? It seems you were not overly impressed. What model Magico speaker was it?

Interestingly, Al and I consider some of the Magico speakers as sounding incredibly coherent with superbly integrated drivers and able to disappear completely in the room.

 

[bonzo75]

Btw, how many of you liked this sound and want to reproduce it like this https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-audiophile-p-o-shit.27394/page-8#post-558420

 

[Al M.]

Btw, how many of you liked this sound and want to reproduce it like this https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-audiophile-p-o-shit.27394/page-8#post-558420

Low resolution, nasal and closed-in, antiquated sound with flattened timbre. Not interested if that is what really comes out of the system. Has little to do with what I hear from solo violin live.

But then, you cannot judge what actually comes out of a system from a YouTube video -- you just can't.

 

[bazelio]

Low resolution, nasal and closed-in, antiquated sound with flattened timbre. Not interested if that is what really comes out of the system. Has little to do with what I hear from solo violin live.

But then, you cannot judge what actually comes out of a system from a YouTube video -- you just can't.

+1 not at all my cup of tea either. Nostalgic and pleasant sounding, and I can appreciate that. But not on a day to day basis for me. Maybe once in a blue moon for a different flavor.

On Magico, I didn't say the phase demo fixed Magicos for me; I simply said the audible difference was apparent. The phase coherent version was preferable to my ears. But I think we've veered off course in this thread (again) in to territory that doesn't help Keith as he's not a Magico guy either. So, let's get back on topic.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, you do know you haven't lived until you've heard the vintage WE horns at Munich?
Or so Ked would say.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys, you do know you haven't lived until you've heard the vintage WE horns at Munich?
Or so Ked would say.

What would you say?

 

[morricab]

Guys, you do know you haven't lived until you've heard the vintage WE horns at Munich?
Or so Ked would say.

THe best examples are mindblowingly good! The worst examples sounded antiquated and colored...

 

[morricab]

+1 not at all my cup of tea either. Nostalgic and pleasant sounding, and I can appreciate that. But not on a day to day basis for me. Maybe once in a blue moon for a different flavor.

On Magico, I didn't say the phase demo fixed Magicos for me; I simply said the audible difference was apparent. The phase coherent version was preferable to my ears. But I think we've veered off course in this thread (again) in to territory that doesn't help Keith as he's not a Magico guy either. So, let's get back on topic.

Agree with you on Magicos. I heard a similar demo with Dali speakers with and without phase/time correction. The result with correction was significantly better. I am sensitive to timing, which is why I had full-range electrostats (big ones!) for a long time. Nearly all multi-way designs sound somewhat disintegrated to me. A good two-way is still acceptable but going beyond that I hear the gaps...

 

[asiufy]

Maybe I just wasn't lucky, but the last 2 years, all I got out of that room was "antiquated and colored"...

 

[Al M.]

On Magico, I didn't say the phase demo fixed Magicos for me; I simply said the audible difference was apparent. The phase coherent version was preferable to my ears. But I think we've veered off course in this thread (again) in to territory that doesn't help Keith as he's not a Magico guy either. So, let's get back on topic.

I would still hope for an answer what exactly is the audible difference, thanks.

 

[KeithR]

I don't think phase coherency is OT - I think if you look at my preferred speakers, generally I like lower order crossovers. To me they are much more coherent, despite the Harman testing stuff that says only 4th order is good due to flatter FR, smoother off-axis etc.

But I think this comes from being a Zu owner for years - as Morricab says, once you get used to it you become very cognizant of the relative cacophony involved. This usually lends itself to a mechanical feel where I can hear instruments out of different drivers. I feel YG has more secret sauce than others in this region, but some of that also maybe that Yoav crosses over the mid really really low (65hz). Crossovers in the middle of the mid-range aren't ideal to me.

 

[PeterA]

On Magico, I didn't say the phase demo fixed Magicos for me; I simply said the audible difference was apparent. The phase coherent version was preferable to my ears. But I think we've veered off course in this thread (again) in to territory that doesn't help Keith as he's not a Magico guy either. So, let's get back on topic.

Perhaps Keith is interested in reading a discussion about time coherence and phase. It does not have to be focused on the Magico brand. It is clear that Keith and many others don't like the sound of Magico speakers, so just leave them out of the discussion. Someone stated that most multi way speakers have drivers that are not in phase. I am curious to learn more about this topic, and am interested in reading how you would describe what you heard. I'm sorry you find it too far off topic for this thread.

EDIT: just saw Keith's post. Yes, he does not think phase coherency is off topic.