KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Al M.]

And some posts give me woes
As they hit new lows
Because they don't get flow from vinyl or from live shows
Particularly one of the Boston Bros

...and while you were contributing nothing except complaining that people (not just me) don't dance to your tune of by you undefined "flow", Graham (the sound of tao) and I were having a good, substantial discussion.

 

[bonzo75]

...and while you were contributing nothing except complaining that people (not just me) don't dance to your tune of by you undefined "flow", Graham (the sound of tao) and I were having a good, substantial discussion.

To which you interpreted as one with not prior transients and rolled off and over polite. Like I said, you want to read what you already believe, not what the writer says, nor are you keen enough to go out and check

 

[morricab]

Al, yes, apologise for coming at this concept with perhaps initial broad strokes of some understanding rather than absolutely grasping it and hitting it on the head with an exactness... and I am also probably amplifying quite a bit to clarify. I’ve probably zoomed into the margins to try and describe what I feel is going on.

This flow doesn’t necessarily appear as at all euphonic, the systems that do flow can have jump and a sharpness if it is present. What they don’t tend to do is exaggerate the clarity of the edge. So this is just not because of a lack of capacity to show natural clarity or portray fineness or conversely present only soft dispersion.

To hear what is happening to play music with flow and experience it as flow isn’t an extreme highlighting of anything but rather a mix of balance of microdynamics and may just present as a slight leaning towards some kind of presentation approach... but for me the outcome is ultimately a holistic one based in moments of connection, awareness, realness and of the natural and it relates to a balance of things rather than it being in any way just an extreme pole. And yes, I’m still trying to grasp at words for something that’s always just best felt.

I think you are on to something with regard to the expression of microdynamics contributing to the sense of flow. I think that it also has to be distinguished between the performance itself having flow and the reproduction having flow. I have been to many live concerts where there was not good flow because there was a lack of intuitive interaction between the musicians that made the music sound "choppy" and lack the ryhthmic smoothness. When a really good group or ensemble get it together live then there is distinct flow and this translates to an emotional involvement.

For reprocution I think a lot of the little timing cues and expectations of the brain are contained in the microdynamics of the recording/playback chain. If the recording sucks and masks this then the recording will not give you flow regardless of the rig its played on. The same will be true when a superior recording is played back on gear that is not accurately capturing the tiny shifts in intensity and tone as the musicians progress from note to note and interact and interplay with one another. If this is perceived in time with the brain's expectation then I think flow will result...if something masks or interrupts this (say strange resonances or distortions) then timing and therefore flow are interrupted and the sound can lose interest.

I agree also that flow has nothing inherently to do with euphony nor does it inhibit large dynamic shifts other than to make them seem more as part of the whole rather than large volcanic outbursts.

If one assumes that a recording is the best possible performance that the particular artist can produce then a system with flow should sound closer to what one would hear with that performer at his/her best in a live setting. Now, this is really only potentially true with acoustic music and/or live recordings but these are what should be used to judge things in the first place, no?

 

[morricab]

Great post, your flow definition remembers me of the Harry Pearson definition of continuousness - he wrote a full page on it in an old TAS issue. I think the essay was triggered by his review of the conrad johnson original ART preamplfier. Later cj preamplifiers such as the ACT's or the CT5 lost this quality. The GAT also shows such aspect in part - it is in part why I often return to it.

Yes, Harry wrote about continuousness a lot...he wrestled with defining it practically his whole career. To me it was a bit like defining pornography, I can't easily define it but I know it when i see it! Continuousness was a bit like that...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, if you can't define porn, then you have no chance in this hobby.

I can direct you to some websites. Y'know, for research...

 

[Tango]

"Continuousness" by HP the Great. "Flow" by Bonzo and Bill the lowly audiophile.
"??????" by Tango the wiseass. All pretty much the same meaning. Let's flow back to the heading of this thread.

 

[bonzo75]

Brad, if you can't define porn, then you have no chance in this hobby.

I can direct you to some websites. Y'know, for research...

Nobody wanks on their own porn more than audiophiles

 

[spiritofmusic]

I was gonna say lets all describe what we think about that, but maybe not.

 

[morricab]

Brad, if you can't define porn, then you have no chance in this hobby.

I can direct you to some websites. Y'know, for research...

Well, it wasn't my quote......just thought it appropriate...

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

a well composed full range horn system wil be close to anybodys dream speaker

 

[KeithR]

the "whole note" might be a better expression of flow and continuousness. one where it doesn't sound artificially chopped off or fake sounding. too much leading edge can influence this as well like SS amps that tend to have high negative feedback. at the same time, mile long decays to me aren't right either. flow lends itself to more musicality vs. analytical/detail-oriented presentations.

I don't prefer the traditional "euphonic" speakers out there, I think anyone who has read this thread can see that easily. same with amps - Dartzeel has excellent flow (I owned one for 4 years) but is SS and not considered "warm."

to the folks criticizing my relaxation factor, have you heard horns multiple times to compare with your own system?

 

[KeithR]

I don’t understand it either, Al. It is often paired with “continuousness,” another word which, in this context, is not susceptible of plain meaning.

i find this puzzling coming from a pure analog and tube guy.

 

[bonzo75]

i find this puzzling coming from a pure analog and tube guy.

Maybe he needs to investigate digital and class D more to get the difference

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, have heard Duos at least 4-6x per yr for 5 yrs now. On a continuous upward progress curve. And compared to my evolving Zus journey.
Plus Animas 3x, Liszts 3x, Trios, Pnoes, Hadrons and Grand Sferas.
And the grand emperor of the nine universes, Denman Exponential Horns.

 

[morricab]

the "whole note" might be a better expression of flow and continuousness. one where it doesn't sound artificially chopped off or fake sounding. too much leading edge can influence this as well like SS amps that tend to have high negative feedback. at the same time, mile long decays to me aren't right either. flow lends itself to more musicality vs. analytical/detail-oriented presentations.

I don't prefer the traditional "euphonic" speakers out there, I think anyone who has read this thread can see that easily. same with amps - Dartzeel has excellent flow (I owned one for 4 years) but is SS and not considered "warm."

to the folks criticizing my relaxation factor, have you heard horns multiple times to compare with your own system?

What qualifies as a "Euphonic speaker"?

 

[KeithR]

the second you realize that you don´t analyse your systems sound, but enjoys the flow of whatever music you play, then you´ve found the right system for you, which is all that matters
IMNSHO

this sums it up nicely, thank you.

 

[KeithR]

What qualifies as a "Euphonic speaker"?

Sonus Faber is what comes to mind in that direction.

 

[NorthStar]

I believe that we are talking more about the music recordings than the audio reproduction system when we are referring to "continuity" or the 'music flow' to some people's preference. Am I right?

 

[Exlibris]

the "whole note" might be a better expression of flow and continuousness. one where it doesn't sound artificially chopped off or fake sounding. too much leading edge can influence this as well like SS amps that tend to have high negative feedback. at the same time, mile long decays to me aren't right either. flow lends itself to more musicality vs. analytical/detail-oriented presentations.

I don't prefer the traditional "euphonic" speakers out there, I think anyone who has read this thread can see that easily. same with amps - Dartzeel has excellent flow (I owned one for 4 years) but is SS and not considered "warm."

to the folks criticizing my relaxation factor, have you heard horns multiple times to compare with your own system?

There are a number of horn systems that, too me, don't lend themselves to long-term listening. If I had to guess, I'd say that my body couldn't relax when listening because it was always in defense-mode. It was always prepared to brace itself for an aggressive, harsh, distorted, resonant or peaky sound to come from the system. This is pretty much the exact opposite of being drawn into the music and letting it wash over you.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I believe that we are talking more about the music recordings than the audio reproduction system when we are referring to "continuity" or the 'music flow' to some people's preference. Am I right?

No. Not in my definition. Same recording will flow on one system and not another. Heard this loads of times.