Large speaker improvements

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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I am not trying to get into an argument here. I have seen his videos. He has put on a fantastic youtube marketing campaign. I agree with some of his statements but others not so much.

Here is a picture I just took from REW of my the bass response I have in my room. Not one ounce of activated carbon in sight. This is 1/24 octave smoothed.
 

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steve59

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Jan 7, 2018
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I contacted GP acoustics a bit over a year ago and they still do the upgrade tho it's not listed...I erased the info when I sold the speakers but I do know they lower the xover point and I think is the chosen alignment for shows.
 

QuadDiffuser

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I am not trying to get into an argument here. I have seen his videos. He has put on a fantastic youtube marketing campaign. I agree with some of his statements but others not so much.

Here is a picture I just took from REW of my the bass response I have in my room. Not one ounce of activated carbon in sight. This is 1/24 octave smoothed.
By sharing some first-hand information, I was trying to be helpful to Fuscobal. BTW, I spent two weeks in Romania - what a beautiful country!
 

fuscobal

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Apr 8, 2020
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Glad you liked my country, if you come by again, let me know and I'll point you to some beautiful places :) . DAC2X v2 should be here soon to replace the CDSAse. Next on the list is the streamer. I was wondering if streamers allow for some sort of room correction software. Maybe after measuring the response at the listening point, I can play 1-2 db on the troublesome frequencies to smooth things out.
 

AdamZ

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Mar 23, 2017
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Germanny
I Hello Fuscobal.
have shared this before.
Most of my used Twaeks are inspired by established Products.
(I drive a Pair of Duntech Prncess)
And the Floor in my Listening Room is made of Laminate.
(hope is the right Word)
I read about the Shun Moog Products and think about the used Wood
and the (maybe) Sound Effects of it.
I buy Grenadilla Wood. This is realy close to Ebony Wood.
but in my Country not protected like Ebony.
Which is also used for Instruments.
I ask a Carpenter to mke 8 2 Inch Balls of it.
OK? OK! (it will be good to have a helping Hand)
I Start with a 10mm Cork Plate.
Next a 20mm Slate Plate(same geom. as the Speaker Base)
Place the Speakers to the usefull Position.
Plece the Wood Balls to the Spikes Screw Holes of the Speaker
between Speaker and Slate Plate.Cost: round 150.- Euros and a bit Time for installing.
Benefit?
In my Case: the Speaker stands more separated from the Sound.
Sounds a bit airier. Looks great. Made by myself.(thats the best Benefit);)
See Pic 20190930_171333.jpg








I drive a Pair of Duntech Princess.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
Hello guys. My current speakers are Usher Be-10 that sit on their provided spikes (cones) + coins (washers). Floor is 14mm wooden parquet (triple layered, not massive) glued to the concrete slab. Room is quite well prepared with bass traps on all corners and in other key areas. The sound is very well controled and delicate, bass is tight and pretty fast but I feel it could have more slam (especially in the lower midbass area). Is there any tweak that could help in this regard ?

PS : Maybe the lack of slam on the lower midbass area comes from the fact that the large 11" Eton driver is mated directly to the BE midrange. More expensive speakers have 2-3 drivers (6-8") to take care of that area.

When it comes to musical bass, which I think is what you're alluding to, IME, there simply is no substittuion for finding AN if not THE optimal placement position for your full-range speakers. There's not even a close second option unless you're willing to consider bringing in a superior subwoofer or two, but then they too need to be very-well-positioned and dialed in and this will work as a backup option.

Going down the list, I'd put superior means of vibration mgmt as 3rd. But even this will not deliver the musical bass you're seeking like finding THE optimal location for your speakers would. But it will greatly enhance whatever bass you have provided you choose superior products and materials and methods. I suggest leaving your spikes/points attached to the B-10's and ensure they are tightly fastened to the speaker. I've always liked the B-10's and B-20's but I've no idea what their spikes/points are made of. But materials matter greatly when it comes to performance - and not just for bass.

I would also suggest removing the bass traps altogether while you're trying to find AN or THE optimal speaker location. Because if/when you do, you may find you don't need the bass traps at all. And it's quite possible the bass traps right now could hinder what you're trying to accomplish.

Since there is no substitution for speaker location within a given room when it comes to truly musical bass, it might help to share your room's dimensions WxLxH and where your speakers are currently positioned within the room from the front center of the woofer's cones. If your speakers are way out of wack position-wise right now, perhaps somebody here can help guide torward a good starting place. But that's about it. After that, it's just a matter of moving them 1-inch in any given direction the next day and the next day, etc and every time you hear a slightly more musical bass you need to tape that location as a point to revert back to if tomorrow you go in the wrong direction and the bass is worse. In my limited experience for a starting point, I usually look to the front center woofer to be at least 5.5ft - 7ft out from the front wall and maybe 3ft away from side walls. But that would be for a room roughly 13.5ft wide x maybe 21ft deep.

This hunting excursion is potentially far worse than watching paint dry. In my second room, it took me over 9 months of moving the speakers a little here and there every few days to find AN optimal location. Of course we can never be quite sure we found THE optimal location but when you find at least an optimal location, it's sooooo frickin' worth it. You'd almost think the planets are in complete alignment.

BTW, I consider the 11-inch woofer more than sufficient if not ideal for what you're hoping to accomplish.
 
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steve59

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Jan 7, 2018
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stehno!!!!
So many demo's I fall in love with the speakers just to bring them home to say wtf. They don't need burn in when they're the same ones from the shop. I think overloading a room with subs is just a shortcut to proper placement, sure the family room has to be just so but if one has a listening room then time with placement can make most speakers sound good. Free and repeatable.
 

rsrzr

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Jun 22, 2017
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I have the Usher x-towers with the 11” Eaton woofer. I would like to add a few things That made big differences to the sound quality of the bass.
I used to have the Usher mini dancer ii’s with the hegel h300. I liked the be-10 so I decided to upgrade. When I heard the x-towers at an audio show, I liked them as much as the be-10’s.
‘The hegel wasn’t powerful enough for the low end so I switched to separates with a ps audio bhk 250 amp. Big jump in performance.

I have a dedicated treated listening room and speaker positioning made the biggest difference in bass quality once I knew the amp was driving the woofers properly. I use the 1/3 methodology which means placing the speakers 1/3 the length of the room from the rear wall. I have a 21’ long room, so I started with the front of the speakers 7’ from the back wall. The be-10’s have the ports in back whereas the x-towers have them in front which I prefer, so with ports in back, you want to be further out into the room. Then I used the Cardas method for distance from side walls, the used Jim Smiths recommendation of 110% of the width between the speakers to the listening chair. Speakers are pointed straight forward, no toe in.

Looking at your room treatments, IMO, you have way too much absorption. I have ASC tube traps in the corners and GIK panels for the side 1st reflection points. I do have the GIK super bass trap on the wall behind the listening chair.
I would try getting your speakers more out into the room with the least amount of absorption as possible or maybe add some diffusers that are made for the lower octaves
 

sbo6

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May 18, 2014
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Usher BE20Ds were my last speaker which I enjoyed very much for about 5 years. One of the first things I noticed after getting them dialed in (amps, positioning and room treatment) was that the bass always felt like it was lagging behind the speed of the BE midrange and diamond tweeter. The culprit was that the design crosses over the 11" woofers to the mid at ~400Hz, quite high. And as such is demanded the woofers play up into the low midrange frequencies. The solution for me was to employ a GR Research crossover which amongst other things crosses over the woofers at ~200 Hz. The result was startlingly tighter, more defined bass, however it also results in a significantly less warm but more accurate speaker. Along with other benefits (lifting a veil, more seamless integration of drivers, better defined spacial cues, better sense of depth, etc.) it was well worth the $ and effort. Without the upgrade at 400hz the design limits the ability for the woofers to match the speed of the other drivers. And with only 1: 11" woofer in the BE10D (asking the woofer to do more work vs. 2) I presume it's even more of an issue. My 2 cents.
 
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stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR


I've heard and appreciated both the Be-10's and 20's but I'm not intimately familar with either so I can only speak theoretically. in my previous 2 rooms I owned the Aerial Acoustic Model 10T's 3-ways with 84db sensitivity, an 11-inch woofer crossing over to the midrange at 360Hz. And the bass when dialed into the room via optimal placement was spectacular to say the least and to this day I've not heard better. Now the 2nd room took me 9 months of moving the speakers an inch here or there several tims a week but eventually I got it. That was with 300wpc Class A/B and 160wpc Class D amps and the bass was even more musical with the 160wpc amps. I'm now in my 3rd room and with different speakers and with just slightly less musical bass. So I'd say at least theoretically the 11-inch woofer and 400Hz first crossover should be absolutely non-issues. Especially since the bass you're seeking to dial in generally resides well below 100Hz.

I saw your floor plan with speaker positions. Looks to be roughly 18ft wide x 22 ft deep x 8.5ft high and your speakers are roughly 4ft out from the front wall as well as roughly 4 ft out from the side walls. As far as I know the speakers should never be the same distance from front wall as they are from side walls.

Again, I'd like to suggest removing all treatments and absorbers from the room first. For all anybody knows, these items might make it more difficult to find an optimal placement for a very musical bass. Room treatments and accessories are supposedly intended to act as enhancements to what you already have. Since you're already lacking the musical bass, I don't see how these things can help get the absolute best speaker placement for best bass. And like I said earlier, once you've located an optimal speaker location, I'll bet dollars-to-donuts you'll also discover you don't need any of these acoustic treatments and you can sell or donate them.

I see you've got a doorway in the way of your left speaker so I'd suggest ignoring the door all together for a moment. For a starting point I'd like to suggest you bring the speakers a bit further out into the room from the front wall so that there's at least 5.5ft between the woofer's front center and the wall behind it (the front wall). Also, try moving your speakers about 1ft closer to the side walls so the woofer centers are roughly 3ft from the side walls. This is quite possibily as close to an ideal starting point as you may get. But it's just a starting point.

BTW, this level of musical bass, once achieved, will not be reproduceable on every recording you play. Of my music library, I'd guess maybe half of that will exhibit some form of musical bass. The point being that you've gotta have music you know will easily exhibit a musical bass when dialed in. Since not all recordings exhibit a visceral deep tight well-defined bass the same way, you'd totally be shooting in the dark without such music I've included 2 samples here exhibiting 2 different types of excellent bass and what the little recording mic doesn't pick up the visual effects will help demonstrate the bass. Also If you're unsure what music cuts will easily tell you when you've dialed in your speakers, there are many to suggest but I'd suggest the new 2018 soundtrack from A Star Is Born as it's wonderfully engineered and it has maybe 8 - 12 cuts with some excellent bass. Sure there's plenty of others but it's gotta be recordings you know will exhibit this type of bass when dialed in.

Anyway, from that initial starting point,

1. Listen to the same recording you know has or should have some excellent musical bass.
2. Use masking tape marking the speaker's positions on the floor in case you need to revert back.
3. Move both speakers in the same position back or forward or in oppisition to either left or right and only move in increments of no larger than 1-inch at a time.
4. If bass sounds worse, move them back to the masking taped positions and try another direction.

Rinse and repeat until satisfied.

If in the end the doorway is in the way of your left speaker's optimal positiion, well, once you hear the type of bass you may be seeking, perhaps you'll think it beneficial to have the doorway moved to maybe halfway down that same wall.

No doubt, there's several ways to approach your issue. This is typically how I would start and although many love to refer to "science", I find this effort to be far more art (or luck) than science. Also, in my own case, I'd given up a long time ago on locating the optimal placement positions for my VMPS RM-40 full-range speakers in this newer room. Even though I know the optimal location is there somewhere. Instead, I was able to achieve much the same musical bass I was seeking just by dialing in my 15-inch subwoofer. Funny enough, I'd never once moved my subwoofer from it's original position when I first purchased it 5 years ago. IOW, I was somehow able to accomplish this by fine-tuning the maybe 9 toggle switches and dials. No easy feat here either and this achievement was quite a suprise to me. Did I mention that truly musical bass is more art than science?
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
BTW, I'm a little intrigued that you opened this thread in the vibration control forum. I don't blame you as the answer to most all of a given playback system's many woes can be fully remedied by superior forms of vibration control, however, achieving a truly musical bass is not among them. But certain types of superior vibration control will no doubt greatly enhance whatever bass you currently have, it still is no match for finding an or the optimal speaker placement position.

Guess I would have expected your thread in the genenal forum or in the speaker forum. Nice try though. :)
 

fuscobal

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Apr 8, 2020
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Speakers are now 225cm away from wall, so that's 1/3rd from the room's length (690cm). Distance to side walls is 157cm, so much less than distance to back wall. Bass is quite decent and even now but still feel the 11" is a bit behind that midrange. I tend to agree with sbo6 that 400Hz is a bit too much for such a large driver, no matter how good it is. The midrange is a beryllium dome and is much faster. sbo6, how does the midrange cope with 200Hz instead of 400Hz ? Are those filters custom to replace the OEM ones in the speakers ?
 
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sbo6

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I've heard and appreciated both the Be-10's and 20's but I'm not intimately familar with either so I can only speak theoretically. in my previous 2 rooms I owned the Aerial Acoustic Model 10T's 3-ways with 84db sensitivity, an 11-inch woofer crossing over to the midrange at 360Hz. And the bass when dialed into the room via optimal placement was spectacular to say the least and to this day I've not heard better. Now the 2nd room took me 9 months of moving the speakers an inch here or there several tims a week but eventually I got it. That was with 300wpc Class A/B and 160wpc Class D amps and the bass was even more musical with the 160wpc amps. I'm now in my 3rd room and with different speakers and with just slightly less musical bass. So I'd say at least theoretically the 11-inch woofer and 400Hz first crossover should be absolutely non-issues. Especially since the bass you're seeking to dial in generally resides well below 100Hz.
Being frank here - I've heard full sized Ariels some years back and they are quite good speakers, but in the 25 years since the release of the 10Ts speaker and driver design has come a long way. There are many speakers (and woofer designs) significantly better, including the Ushers IMO. I'm glad you're happy with your speakers, but there's almost always something better. For example, I loved my Ushers including the bass with the xover upgrade but there's simply no comparison versus my Vivids. And the Vivids should be better and 2x the cost.
 

sbo6

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Speakers are now 225cm away from wall, so that's 1/3rd from the room's length (690cm). Distance to side walls is 157cm, so much less than distance to back wall. Bass is quite decent and even now but still feel the 11" is a bit behind that midrange. I tend to agree with sbo6 that 400Hz is a bit too much for such a large driver, no matter how good it is. The midrange is a beryllium dome and is much faster. sbo6, how does the midrange cope with 200Hz instead of 400Hz ? Are those filters custom to replace the OEM ones in the speakers ?

When I realized what you found WRT the bass and the mid delta in speed I researched and most 3 ways with >=8" woofers crossover <400hz (Wilson, Rockport, Magico, etc.). When I contacted Danny Ritchie of GR Research I asked the same question about the mid covering down to 200Hz and he stated that he measured and tested and saw no problems in terms of the design and its capability at those frequencies. Also, yes the crossovers are completely redone and custom replacing the cheapo caps, resistors and coils and the cheap wiring. I would recommend contacting him, he's very approachable and knows his stuff. FYI - he worked as a consultant for Usher designing crossovers if memory serves.
 

rsrzr

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Jun 22, 2017
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Fuscobal-not sure why the previous person responded when they don’t have any experience with Usher or the 11” Eaton especially when Usher are in a different league than Aeriel or vmps speakers.

Comparing the be-10/be-20 to the x-towers, a couple of things are different:
1) be-10/20 have a 5” mid, x-tower has the 7”,
2) be-10/20 have rear facing ports, x-tower front ports.
3 crossover.

Differences aside, there are 2 more things that I have done in multiple usher speakers and that’s 1) load the mass tuning cavity with sand or lead shot. This fines tunes the bass. If your bass is loose, fill the cavity. I used bags of sand.
2) Another tuning step could be plugging the rear bass port with acoustic material or a couple of socks if you don’t have acoustic material. I don’t plug the port completely to let the speaker breathe, you can tailor the output by how much you close the port.

If these 2 tweaks tighten up the bass too much, you can adjust the Speaker position again
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
Being frank here - I've heard full sized Ariels some years back and they are quite good speakers, but in the 25 years since the release of the 10Ts speaker and driver design has come a long way. There are many speakers (and woofer designs) significantly better, including the Ushers IMO. I'm glad you're happy with your speakers, but there's almost always something better. For example, I loved my Ushers including the bass with the xover upgrade but there's simply no comparison versus my Vivids. And the Vivids should be better and 2x the cost.

Just being frank here. Ummm, what's your point? That there's better speakers than the Model 10T's? I certainly hope so. Just like I'm certain there's better speakers than the Ushers.

In case you missed it, the topic is not about best speaker but rather an improved bass response from in this case an Usher Be-10, but could be about most any full-range speaker.

Do you know what a truly musical bass sounds like? Few do because few have achieved it and the speaker make / model doesn't make all that much difference provided it's at least somewhat well-designed. I'd venture most aren't even aware such a musical bass far above and beyond the usual bass even exists. FWIW, this type of bass generally changes the entire playback presentation and not just in the lower bass regions. The differences are so great that I suspect a well-positioned $10k speaker producing superior musical bass should easily sound overall more musical than a $100k speaker unable to reproduce this same level of bass.

BTW, not that it matters but I sold the Aerial 10t's in 2007. Again, the subject supposedly is attempting to achieve max bass performannce with a given room and given full-range speaker.
 

sbo6

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Calm down friend. My point was replying to your quote, "And the bass when dialed into the room via optimal placement was spectacular to say the least and to this day I've not heard better. " It was simply that there are many speakers much better since the 10Ts were made available so there's much better bass out there. You made the grand claim, not me.

Second point was - asking a large transducer to reproduce an extra octave is not a trivial task and I've heard his woofer crossed at 200Hz and 400Hz - it's night and day difference. You can tune / tweak placement all you want, it won't fix his problem.

Also I would wager I do know musical bass and have spent significant time getting mine right including optimal speaker placement, positioning of 4 Fathom subwoofers + hundreds of measurements and custom room treatment. Thank you for your advice.
 

rsrzr

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Jun 22, 2017
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Sbo6-It sounds like that poster has not heard what good bass sounds like, aerial didn’t have good bass in its day and vmps are not noted for their bottom end either.
There are differences between bass drivers even if that poster doesn’t think so. Usher Eaton drivers are very very good and can be very different from other 10-12” drivers.
 
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stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
I can't help but find humor in some of these posts. I've heard both Usher Be-10's and Be-20's in various rooms at varous audio shows and worked with the nuforce room at CES 2007 who was using a borrowed pair of Be-10's. I've always liked the 10's and 20's.

But one of the worst exhibiting rooms I've ever heard even to this day was the Usher room at CES 2007 where they were exhibiting both the Be-10's and Be-20's as they were just struggling to get any kind of decent sound including bass in their rather large exhibiting room. Does that imply all Usher Be-10 and Be-20 speakers suck? Following some of your logic the answer would be an obvious yes.

FWIW, truly musical bass is perhaps the second most difficult and rarest thing to achieve in all of high-end audio. As apparently substantiated by some comments in this thread.

{shaking dust off my feet}
 

rsrzr

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
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Sure, it just happens you remember that Usher had the worst setup room in your history of going to audio shows, which is a speaker we are discussing here. Are you a troll?
We are discussing areas that you don't have experience in. We are discussing more current technologies and more upscale speakers than what you are used to. Refrain from hacking this thread
 
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