My monitor/subwoofer system

[ddk]

I know what you mean Dave. Those lyrics suck so much, I'm onto Rita Ora and One Direction now. Way more gratifying.

Never heard of either one, will look them up later.

 

[Al M.]

I know what you mean Dave. Those lyrics suck so much, I'm onto Rita Ora and One Direction now. Way more gratifying.

Never heard of Rita Ora before, but I was sampling a few of her songs. Yeah, way more gratifying, and such heavenly lyrics!

 

[ddk]

I know what you mean Dave. Those lyrics suck so much, I'm onto Rita Ora and One Direction now. Way more gratifying.

I don’t know Marc, I’m way past my teenage years and teenage angst and even back then boys bands and pop music didn’t do anything for me.

david

 

[bonzo75]

On this forum a lot of people have second childhood angst

 

[Al M.]

I don't think anyone should take the comments by and exchange between Marc and myself seriously. Also not Bazelio's comment about Black Sabbath sounding awful. We're just having fun. No emojis needed.

But seriously, Billie Eilish is great.

 

[bonzo75]

The recordings are awful. Black Sabbath isn't audiophile music.

Which label have you tried

 

[bazelio]

Which label have you tried

I am referring to the recording quality of the OG Sabbath albums, not any particular label or mastering variance. The lore is that the master tapes sound bad.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't think anyone should take the comments by and exchange between Marc and myself seriously. Also not Bazelio's comment about Black Sabbath sounding awful. We're just having fun. No emojis needed.

But seriously, Billie Eilish is great.

Barry and me listened to Billie yesterday via the Extreme. You've heard the phrase "phoned it in"? Well, she literally phoned in her recording. Fidelity wise, it sounded about Atari 8-bit level. Sadly, all that fake moaning and groaning that takes the place of, y'know singing, came thru "clearly". She's so achingly hip, she'll get OA before her time.

 

[Chops]

Barry and me listened to Billie yesterday via the Extreme. You've heard the phrase "phoned it in"? Well, she literally phoned in her recording. Fidelity wise, it sounded about Atari 8-bit level. Sadly, all that fake moaning and groaning that takes the place of, y'know singing, came thru "clearly". She's so achingly hip, she'll get OA before her time.

Exactly why I don't listen to the radio or current music. It all pretty much sucks these days. With the rare very few exceptions of course. 99.9% of the mainstream "so-called" music however just truly sucks.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Chops, pity me at the barber pre-Covid, waiting 20 mins or so for a shave, and the shop literally vibrating to this music on a loop. I think I was young once, before I started showing an interest in fuses and power cords...

 

[Al M.]

Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees the war pigs crawling,
Begging mercies for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings

I'm just loving this.

By the way, I found out that War Pigs sounds great on my system also through just the monitors, without subs. I discovered that accidentally, as I turned off the subs for a piece with bass overload (I can do that simply with a switch on the preamp, controlling the outlets), and then forgot to turn them back on. The drums have punch, and a good amount of weight, also through just the monitors. Geezer's bass isn't that bassy anyway, in terms of low frequencies, and a good amount of the power derives also from Tony Iommi diving into his guitar's low register and letting it ring out with generous distortion. On this, the subs obviously contribute hardly anything.

Iron Man from the same album sounds extremely powerful too (I listened with subs). Just gorgeous.

 

[PeterA]

Ok, so we've had lots of chat about Ozzy's lyrics and Al seems pretty excited to be revisiting the headbangers. I had to hear it for myself, so after a lovely dinner at our favorite local Italian restaurant, Al and I listened to his system. This was the first time I've heard it since he removed some of the ASC room treatments located on his front wall.

My first impression was of a more lively listening space. The sound was more open and I could hear more into the music. There was more energy overall and the high frequencies seemed better behaved. The sound also seemed more spectrally balanced with more lower midrange/upper bass energy. Overall, the sound was less thin. I also noticed that the spatial information and hall acoustic where more apparent. Differences between mic placement in the older recordings and the new ones like Hillary Hahn playing 27 encores was easily noticeable. I think all of these improvements are a direct result of the removal of some of the acoustic treatments. They overdamped the room and absorbed some of the music's life. The sound was now more nuanced and alive.

I particularly enjoyed Art Pepper, some Beethoven quartets, and Cantata Domino. However, the improved mid to upper range let me hear some issues with the lower frequencies. There seemed to be more energy throughout the spectrum, but the lower frequencies seemed a tad loose and less resolved than were the mid and upper ranges. I would be very curious to hear what happens when more of the traps are removed and the subwoofers are brought more into the room for improved integration. That is for another day.

I will say that I am impressed with Al's willingness to start playing again with the room treatments and even consider moving the subs to revisit integration with the stand mounted monitors. I enjoyed the sound tonight and it was more natural than the last time I heard the system. It seems now to be moving in a new direction.

The evening culminated in the blasting of Black Sabbath War Pigs and Fairies Wear Boots. In fact, it was the highlight of the night. Al played it loud and in the dark. Those small speakers and subs could really rock. Dynamics were incredible. I never thought about the quality of the recording. Those riffs, beats, pounding, screaming lyrics and sheer distortion were mesmerizing. I had never heard this music at such volumes and sound so big. My college system might have exploded had I attempted anything like that on my old Sabbath LPs.

I did not bring the scotch, and Al did not have a pigeon, but I did see a spider as we explored his basement to see if his floor joists could support the subwoofer move and how his ground wire ran from his panel to his water supply pipe. All seems to be in order and the one dedicated circuit seems to be able to handle his entire system nicely. His house will survive and the neighbors might have been too afraid to complain, that is if they heard anything through the window plugs. We did see two warlocks dressed in black walk past us while we ate our dinner at the sidewalk bistro. It was one of those kinds of evenings.

 

[tima]

Very few rock albums are perfect. But Sabbath Bloody Sabbath comes closer than most.
Looking For Today has a pretty prescient lyric for guys who apparently can't write good songs.

 

[Al M.]

Ok, so we've had lots of chat about Ozzy's lyrics and Al seems pretty excited to be revisiting the headbangers. I had to hear it for myself, so after a lovely dinner at our favorite local Italian restaurant, Al and I listened to his system. This was the first time I've heard it since he removed some of the ASC room treatments located on his front wall.

My first impression was of a more lively listening space. The sound was more open and I could hear more into the music. There was more energy overall and the high frequencies seemed better behaved. The sound also seemed more spectrally balanced with more lower midrange/upper bass energy. Overall, the sound was less thin. I also noticed that the spatial information and hall acoustic where more apparent. Differences between mic placement in the older recordings and the new ones like Hillary Hahn playing 27 encores was easily noticeable. I think all of these improvements are a direct result of the removal of some of the acoustic treatments. They overdamped the room and absorbed some of the music's life. The sound was now more nuanced and alive.

I particularly enjoyed Art Pepper, some Beethoven quartets, and Cantata Domino. However, the improved mid to upper range let me hear some issues with the lower frequencies. There seemed to be more energy throughout the spectrum, but the lower frequencies seemed a tad loose and less resolved than were the mid and upper ranges. I would be very curious to hear what happens when more of the traps are removed and the subwoofers are brought more into the room for improved integration. That is for another day.

I will say that I am impressed with Al's willingness to start playing again with the room treatments and even consider moving the subs to revisit integration with the stand mounted monitors. I enjoyed the sound tonight and it was more natural than the last time I heard the system. It seems now to be moving in a new direction.

The evening culminated in the blasting of Black Sabbath War Pigs and Fairies Wear Boots. In fact, it was the highlight of the night. Al played it loud and in the dark. Those small speakers and subs could really rock. Dynamics were incredible. I never thought about the quality of the recording. Those riffs, beats, pounding, screaming lyrics and sheer distortion were mesmerizing. I had never heard this music at such volumes and sound so big. My college system might have exploded had I attempted anything like that on my old Sabbath LPs.

I did not bring the scotch, and Al did not have a pigeon, but I did see a spider as we explored his basement to see if his floor joists could support the subwoofer move and how his ground wire ran from his panel to his water supply pipe. All seems to be in order and the one dedicated circuit seems to be able to handle his entire system nicely. His house will survive and the neighbors might have been too afraid to complain, that is if they heard anything through the window plugs. We did see two warlocks dressed in black walk past us while we ate our dinner at the sidewalk bistro. It was one of those kinds of evenings.

Yes, that was a fun evening, Peter, starting with a good conversation over this delicious dinner (and the two warlocks walking past us ). I was pretty sure you would enjoy the Black Sabbath. As you said, that rock is heavy.

Thanks again for the inspiration to experiment with the room a bit more.

 

[MadFloyd]

I visited Al yesterday and we had an enjoyable listening session. I think I visit Al fairly frequently but I think the last several times there has been a change of some sort. This time it was speaker positioning and the removal of some room treatments.

It's rare that I don't enjoy Al's system and yesterday was no exception. It continues to be my favorite system for spatial imaging and intimacy. I say intimacy because Al's sound is quite forward (e.g. center image around speaker plane) and has nice bloom so a solo violin sounds like it's right there in the room (whereas in my system it sounds much more distant). Al's sound is strong in the midrange so it emphasizes the immediacy of the violin (e.g. bowing sound) whereas in my system I hear more of the recording venue, less bowing detail and more 'singing' of the violin. I find Al's system more engaging and yesterday he played some of the more up-tempo Rachel Barton Pine's solo Bach partitas. My jaw was on the floor...

We also heard some favorite orchestral pieces, including Bruckner's 9th (3rd movement) and Stravinsky's Song of the Nightingale (Dorati/MLP). I like the Bruckner in either of our systems but prefer the Stravinsky in Al's.

No string quartets this time. How did that happen?

The session ended with Al blowing me away with Black Sabbath. Wow. Wonderful presentation that did justice to some classic music.

 

[Al M.]

Thanks for the visit, Ian! Great that you enjoyed the sound. Yes, how did string quartets not happen this time?

Interesting that you mention the intimacy of my monitor based system. It is one of the things that I enjoy most about it as well.

I also like the Bruckner 9 (Giulini/VPO) in my system, in part since here the separation of instruments and instrument groups is very good as well. Yet I prefer greatly this orchestral recording in your system, which is considerably more capable on this kind of music. I have heard it there with much more weight and with jaw dropping resolution of timbre, in particular on strings and brass. Come to think of it, I never heard that Stravinsky recording in your system, next time perhaps.

While it can handle orchestral music quite well, I guess my system is more at home with, for example, violin and with Black Sabbath (which is indeed an experience)....and with the probably underrated Billie Eilish .

***

For those who are not familiar with the recording of the Bach violin sonatas and partitas by Rachel Barton Pine, here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Testament-Complete-Sonatas-Partitas-Violin/dp/B01AYPMSF0/

It is very likely available on streaming as well. We heard the fourth movement of the first sonata, and the Corrente - Double of the first partita (track 6; the second part, Double, is the fast one). Her fast playing is jaw dropping indeed, also because it is not just a virtuoso technical exercise, but suffused with a beautiful tone and musical feeling. Needless to say, she shines in the slower music as well. It's a sensational interpretation of these famous works. By the way, Rachel Barton Pine was the youngest ever winner of the International Bach Competition.

She also plays Black Sabbath on violin....

And Metallica:

 

[Al M.]

Upper image:

Speaker 5 inches inward from last original position, which is marked by white tape (the first reverse L-shap marking to the right of the concrete plate)

Lower image:
System view with speakers closer together (each 5 inches inward, for total lesser distance of 10 inches)

 

[Al M.]

A few weeks ago I did the experiment of moving the speakers closer together by 10 inches (5 inches on each side). In that configuration, the speakers are only 6.4 feet apart (from tweeter to tweeter), rather than the usual 7.2 feet. With this rather extreme move, I wanted to test the two following things:

a) See if the tonal balance shows more saturation. In some cases, moving speakers closer together yields that result. In case it does here too, I would not necessarily keep the speakers that close together, but use that knowledge as a starting point for arriving at a final positioning.

b) So far, every move of the speakers closer together, and thus further from the side walls, had resulted in a reduction of distortion that apparently was caused by side wall reflections. I wanted to see if this could be driven even further.

Results:

• no difference in body of lower midrange and tonal saturation, no difference in weight of upper and midbass
• less liveliness because of fewer fine dynamic shadings
• less space for music to develop; also less spatial (hall) information on large-cale orchestra
• on some music the speakers seem to "shout" more, even though there are unlikely any of the distortions that were in previous iterations caused with sidewall reflections; on music tested, the "shouting" was noticeable in particular on Haydn Symphonies with chamber orchestra, some other orchestral music
• trapezoid soundstage, with more width in the rear than in the front
• toe-in almost same for same tonal balance as with null position of speakers 10 inches further apart; the highs do not shoot up markedly, unlike with prior movements of speakers closer together; this also means that moving speakers closer together does not enable full toe out, when it comes to desired tonal balance

Given the fact that none of my two objectives were achieved, and moving the speakers closer together only resulted in disadvantages, the experiment was aborted and I moved the speakers back to their original position before this move. It was a delight to relax into that familiar presentation. That presentation is also what Peter and Ian heard when they were here last.

It appears that I am quite close to a final speaker position.

***

Next installment: moving the subwoofers to the front, something done two days ago with Peter A.'s help. Reporting on that will be fun.

 

[PeterA]

Al, did you make incremental moves, of say 1/2" at a time moving toward the full 5" per side, or did you just compare what you had to the 10" total closer together? That seems like a lot to me. I have also found that the sound can become too closed it if the speakers are too close together, losing openness and life. For me it is more about the solidity or the images and sense of presence than it is about more tonal saturation or increased weight.

When I decided to try pointing my speakers straight ahead, I found moving them slightly closer together put me more on axis with the speaker, so it did affect tonal balance somewhat, but it also made the sound a bit less diffuse and more solid. In my case, very small changes in spacing were significant in terms of realism and how convincing the presentation was. Once I was in the right zone, I played a lot with very small incremental movements over a fairly long period of time with a variety of music before settling on the current position, all with no toe-in.

I suspect each situation is different, and much depends on what the listener wants or likes.

 

[Al M.]

Al, did you make incremental moves, of say 1/2" at a time moving toward the full 5" per side, or did you just compare what you had to the 10" total closer together? That seems like a lot to me. I have also found that the sound can become too closed it if the speakers are too close together, losing openness and life. For me it is more about the solidity or the images and sense of presence than it is about more tonal saturation or increased weight.

When I decided to try pointing my speakers straight ahead, I found moving them slightly closer together put me more on axis with the speaker, so it did affect tonal balance somewhat, but it also made the sound a bit less diffuse and more solid. In my case, very small changes in spacing were significant in terms of realism and how convincing the presentation was. Once I was in the right zone, I played a lot with very small incremental movements over a fairly long period of time with a variety of music before settling on the current position, all with no toe-in.

I suspect each situation is different, and much depends on what the listener wants or likes.

Yes, I know what you mean, Peter. This was an entirely brute force experiment, as I said, an "extreme move", just to answer some basic questions -- to my satisfaction, I might add. I had made incremental moves before, described in this thread, from the speakers being more outward to the current position. These yielded good results.

The subwoofer move, and potentially the rack move as well, which we performed two days ago, have a profound impact on the system sound -- even with subs off -- that partially supersedes any of my incremental speaker moves thus far. Stay tuned. I'll have to do some write-up, and you'll hear it for yourself at some point. Some jazz sounds SO much better...