KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[213Cobra]

I have resisted posting in this thread, but given Keith's post, I feel it's the right time to chime in.

From day one, I told Keith he'd be listening to *everything else* in the chain but the speakers, if he went with YG. To show that effect, I brought some cables to his house, that promptly showed how the speakers could sound bloated one minute and thin the next, with a mere power cable change.
I also told him he'd need new amps, and those would not come cheap, as my experience then (almost 3 years ago) was limited with amps in the $10-15k range, which is where Keith wanted to be. Unfortunately that price range has enough sub-par products, and it seems picked a number of those sub-par amps to evaluate, including some which I downright told him not to bother with.

So, obviously I respect Keith's choice of not wanting to investigate proper amp pairings for his YG. Usually the biggest thing in the room gets the blame, so the speaker it is. Moving back to an obviously colored and resonant speaker allows him to choose a much wider range of amps, which not only suits his budget, but is, in itself, part of the fun of the hobby.

Two of the things that have hindered YG's adoption in the marketplace: their high price (in absolute terms), and 2nd, the need for high quality, abundantly powerful amplification. Power is cheap, but high quality isn't. So on top of that $46k speaker, you'll need another $40k-odd for good electronics.

It's clear that Keith wasn't willing to go there, given his other priorities in life, and nobody can blame him for it. But from here on to infer speaker X is superior to Y "just because", it's a huge leap, and frankly, it is pure intellectual dishonesty.

As usual, I welcome everybody to come to the store, and listen to both Hailey 2.2 and Sonja 2.2i and make up their own minds. I've had a pleasant surprise in the Bricasti line of amplifiers that we've picked up recently, as they work amazingly well with YG speakers, and they start at $15k, the top end of Keith's budget.

One thing I agree with here is that high quality, high-power amplification is not cheap. At least not usually and certainly not if vacuum tube based. Though within solid state, the Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition shames very many high-power amps priced heroically stratospheric. YG chooses to put into the market a line of speakers that require a disproportionate expense on amplification before they or their dealers will accept judgment about the resulting sound.

However, there's much to disagree with. First, taking the position that taking delivery of YG Hailey means one will be hearing everything else in the chain but the speakers is nonsense. Excepting the speakers is tantamount to contending the speaker is perfect, which it is not. While the "everything matters" school of audiophilia is essentially correct that everything results in sonic consequences that can be heard (but might not be), transducers are the most compromised category of sound reproduction products and are very far from perfection. Put a YG speaker as the output of a system, and you are still hearing the YG impose itself on everything that came before it. It still sounds like a crossover-intensive speaker with driver-discontinuities and dynamic choking at the crossover points, among other traits.

The problem with a $46,000 speaker pair that its own dealer says requires $40K worth of "abundant" amplification before he will accept validity of any judgements about the speaker is that the owner is forced into a very narrow range of amplifier design choices, all of which have common problems a system owner might not want to incur -- the primary one being forced into solid state amps of 500w - 1200w relying on massed output devices. That by itself imposes a sound profile that rides on top of individual differences between amps. I expect Bricasti amplification to be able to cope with YG, but that still is in a narrow bracket of amplification, as is the Ampzilla. I have a recent acquaintance going through the same thing with Wilson in his system. No matter what he spends on amps, it sounds clean but not musical. His wife cannot listen to the system. He's certainly spent enough money, though not the way I'd have spent less. I get private messages and emails every week from people all over the world, asking for my hifi advice. Time and again, the highest incidence of frustration and dissatisfaction is from people who bought into the linearity-over-everything con, that saddled them with crossover-intensive, inefficient speakers, dreadnought solid state amps, spiraling costs and tanked satisfaction. Magico, Wilson, YG lead the dissatisfaction contingent in my email inbox, for the common reason that their aggregate approach to loudspeakers prevents musical realism.

With a speaker like a Fyne, simpler and more efficient, a big advantage was demonstrated when one of the best sounds we got out of the system was by installing a pair of custom Williamson-circuit tube monoblocks, stuffed with NOS Siemens EL34, wired as triodes for ~20w output. They actually produced deeper, tighter bass than some of the solid state amps and the power level was eminently usable, pushing levels too loud for conversation. This is not possible to leverage with a YG. The kicker is these amps are made by a Chinese amp builder and anyone can get a pair for $1500 sans tubes, or $2500 if you want the upgrade. If they were made in the US, they'd probably cost $6,000/pr.

Now, I used a $20,000 pair of PSET amps on $4000, then $6000, then $10,000 Zu Druids, 3 generations over a 15 years span. But not because it was necessary to incur that amplification expense to get the Druids to sound grand. The pairing was synergistic. My solar installation forced eviction of my SET amps. My somewhere-around-$20,000 Zu Definition 6s will be powered by single-ended pentode custom amps in the same price class as the Williamson, because the amps are great, and the speaker can deliver convincing dynamics, scale and elasticity along with accuracy, from 10-25 watts.

My inbox from Zu, Tannoy, Klipsch, vintage Altec, Devore owners, et al, contains requests for advice on getting more realism out of speakers in systems they already like or love. From them, I rarely get the frustration factor present in requests for how to get music out of crossover-intensive, inefficient, multi-drivers speakers. The mainstream market has sold the audio buyer many myths and some lies. The idea that if you put YGs in a system you're hearing everything but the speakers is one of them.

Phil

 

[DaveC]

Not favorites, but here are two that I've listened to recently. As always, tough to characterize timbre when the sounds are built, but there's a ton of complexity in those that are. Plus lots of layering, and they're going to push the 20s on both ends...

Arca - &&&&&

The Comet is Coming - Trust in the Lifeforce of the Deep Mystery

Cool, here's a couple YT links for those interested

Arca was a little "out there" for me but I liked The Comet is Coming a lot. Comet is maybe a little more jazz fusion, but certainly electronica too.

I'm not sure I'd consider either as challenging for a system as a symphony orchestra though, although electronica can challenge a system in different ways vs classical. Extension, dynamics, etc. but as far as complex timbre and how much is going on at one time, not in the same league imo.

Some of my favorites include Boards of Canada, Beats Antique, Infected Mushroom, Opiuo, Amon Tobin, Red Snapper, Crazy P... I love the ingenuity and uniqueness of a lot of electronica. The following tracks are interesting and challenging for a system to do well at high SPLs imo.....

This BOC track has a ton of different parts come onto the soundstage in a line, pretty cool imo...

Amon Tobin does a lot of sub-bass effects and jazz samples on Bricolage

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_npBwn9_1TfpCJm5CU26BUywy9rhgXJJY0

Don't play this IM track on panel speakers!

Bass testing, via Opiuo

 

[bonzo75]

Says the guy who obviously has never heard a Magico sound right and constantly rants against Magico. Hilarious.

Yes, in many, may data points. And the consistency across all is remarkable

 

[Al M.]

One thing I agree with here is that high quality, high-power amplification is not cheap. At least not usually and certainly not if vacuum tube based. Though within solid state, the Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition shames very many high-power amps priced heroically stratospheric. YG chooses to put into the market a line of speakers that require a disproportionate expense on amplification before they or their dealers will accept judgment about the resulting sound.

However, there's much to disagree with. First, taking the position that taking delivery of YG Hailey means one will be hearing everything else in the chain but the speakers is nonsense. Excepting the speakers is tantamount to contending the speaker is perfect, which it is not. While the "everything matters" school of audiophilia is essentially correct that everything results in sonic consequences that can be heard (but might not be), transducers are the most compromised category of sound reproduction products and are very far from perfection. Put a YG speaker as the output of a system, and you are still hearing the YG impose itself on everything that came before it. It still sounds like a crossover-intensive speaker with driver-discontinuities and dynamic choking at the crossover points, among other traits.

The problem with a $46,000 speaker pair that its own dealer says requires $40K worth of "abundant" amplification before he will accept validity of any judgements about the speaker is that the owner is forced into a very narrow range of amplifier design choices, all of which have common problems a system owner might not want to incur -- the primary one being forced into solid state amps of 500w - 1200w relying on massed output devices. That by itself imposes a sound profile that rides on top of individual differences between amps. I expect Bricasti amplification to be able to cope with YG, but that still is in a narrow bracket of amplification, as is the Ampzilla. I have a recent acquaintance going through the same thing with Wilson in his system. No matter what he spends on amps, it sounds clean but not musical. His wife cannot listen to the system. He's certainly spent enough money, though not the way I'd have spent less. I get private messages and emails every week from people all over the world, asking for my hifi advice. Time and again, the highest incidence of frustration and dissatisfaction is from people who bought into the linearity-over-everything con, that saddled them with crossover-intensive, inefficient speakers, dreadnought solid state amps, spiraling costs and tanked satisfaction. Magico, Wilson, YG lead the dissatisfaction contingent in my email inbox, for the common reason that their aggregate approach to loudspeakers prevents musical realism.

With a speaker like a Fyne, simpler and more efficient, a big advantage was demonstrated when one of the best sounds we got out of the system was by installing a pair of custom Williamson-circuit tube monoblocks, stuffed with NOS Siemens EL34, wired as triodes for ~20w output. They actually produced deeper, tighter bass than some of the solid state amps and the power level was eminently usable, pushing levels too loud for conversation. This is not possible to leverage with a YG. The kicker is these amps are made by a Chinese amp builder and anyone can get a pair for $1500 sans tubes, or $2500 if you want the upgrade. If they were made in the US, they'd probably cost $6,000/pr.

Now, I used a $20,000 pair of PSET amps on $4000, then $6000, then $10,000 Zu Druids, 3 generations over a 15 years span. But not because it was necessary to incur that amplification expense to get the Druids to sound grand. The pairing was synergistic. My solar installation forced eviction of my SET amps. My somewhere-around-$20,000 Zu Definition 6s will be powered by custom amps in the same price class because the amps are great, and the speaker can deliver convincing dynamics, scale and elasticity along with accuracy, from 10-25 watts.

My inbox from Zu, Tannoy, Klipsch, vintage Altec, Devore owners, et al, contains requests for advice on getting more realism out of speakers in systems they already like or love. From them, I rarely get the frustration factor present in requests for how to get music out of crossover-intensive, inefficient, multi-drivers speakers. The mainstream market has sold the audio market many myths and some lies. The idea that if you put YGs in a system you're hearing everything but the speakers is one of them.

Phil

While I agree with most of your excellent post, I cannot agree with your assessment that Magico's approach prevents musical realism. I just came back from a thoroughly entertaining, foot-tapping, exciting, musically immensely involving session, also showing the *musical* brilliance of the interpretation by some great performers of some brilliant classical compositions, at Ian's house (member Madfloyd).

Magico M Project speakers, and yes, driven by very expensive and powerful CH Precision amplification. But a timbral purity and realism that is convincing and engaging, with tremendous musical life and energy. Nothing sterile or clinical about it. Instead, harmonic richness and integrity galore.

But as we heard, and as Asiufy alludes to, everything matters with such speakers, including power cables on all components, equipment platforms, footers between platforms and equipment. The speakers are so transparent, they will show any flaw in the system. But when things are right, musical magic happens, as it did again today.

All the dismissal of and hate towards Magico is a result of never having heard what Magico really can do. I have many years of detailed experience of listening to Magico in Ian's system and elsewhere, and I have witnessed how sensitive the balance is between things working and not working. But when things do work, magic happens as I said, and the result is worth it. There is a convincing purity and rightness to the sound as is hard to find in reproduction.

And yes, I also agree with Keith's assessment that no speaker is perfect. But Magico, when in the right system environment that has to be worked for diligently, is right up there in being able to deliver some of the best and most engaging musical experiences that I have witnessed from a system.

 

[Al M.]

Yes, in many, may data points. And the consistency across all is remarkable

Yes, the consistency of your judgment, apparently based on many suboptimal auditions, being totally off the mark is remarkable indeed.

I don't care if you have heard Magico 20 times or more in different contexts. If all these 20 times or more were under suboptimal conditions, you still haven't heard a single time what Magico really can do. Which obviously you didn't.

You think you are so experienced, Ked. In some ways you are, I'll gladly grant you that. In other important ways, you clearly are *not*.

 

[213Cobra]

While I agree with most of your excellent post, I cannot agree with your assessment that Magico's approach prevents musical realism. I just came back from a thoroughly entertaining, foot-tapping, exciting, musically immensely involving session, also showing the *musical* brilliance of the interpretation by some great performers of some brilliant classical compositions, at Ian's house (member Madfloyd).

Magico M Project speakers, and yes, driven by very expensive and powerful CH Precision amplification. But a timbral purity and realism that is convincing and engaging, with tremendous musical life and energy. Nothing sterile or clinical about it. Instead, harmonic richness and integrity galore.

But as we heard, and as Asiufy alludes to, everything matters with such speakers, including power cables on all components, equipment platforms, footers between platforms and equipment. The speakers are so transparent, they will show any flaw in the system. But when things are right, musical magic happens, as it did again today.

All the dismissal of and hate towards Magico is a result of never having heard what Magico really can do. I have many years of detailed experience of listening to Magico in Ian's system and elsewhere, and I have witnessed how sensitive the balance is between things working and not working. But when things do work, magic happens as I said, and the result is worth it. There is a convincing purity and rightness to the sound as is hard to find in reproduction.

And yes, I also agree with Keith's assessment that no speaker is perfect. But Magico, when in the right system environment that has to be worked for diligently, is right up there in being able to deliver some of the best and most engaging musical experiences that I have witnessed from a system.

Speakers certainly can, and do, reveal the sonic effects of all that comes before their input, including some that are clearly flaws in associated gear, and others that are just suboptimal to the particular mix of imperfections embedded in the choices made in assembling a given system. The dream is to assemble all-neutral components end-to-end. What we actually end up doing is making a chain of compensating choices for net correcting all the imperfections in the chain that we are trying to keep as small as possible individually.

We might both hear a Magico system you consider legitimately configured and still disagree about its musicality, or maybe I'd hear it as you describe. I've heard many and it always seems there's one more to be heard, to "hear it right." Fair enough. I grant that among speakers I named, I've heard Magico get closer to something I could imagine a path to credibility for than the other two. Still, life is short, and there are so many other things to do than having a prolonged wrestle with this style of speaker to get it into a window of musicality when something like a Fyne F1-12 makes so easy. Everyone is running their own race, I suppose.

Phil

 

[Al M.]

Speakers certainly can, and do, reveal the sonic effects of all that comes before their input, including some that are clearly flaws in associated gear, and others that are just suboptimal to the particular mix of imperfections embedded in the choices made in assembling a given system. The dream is to assemble all-neutral components end-to-end. What we actually end up doing is making a chain of compensating choices for net correcting all the imperfections in the chain that we are trying to keep as small as possible individually.

We might both hear a Magico system you consider legitimately configured and still disagree about its musicality, or maybe I'd hear it as you describe. I've heard many and it always seems there's one more to be heard, to "hear it right." Fair enough. I grant that among speakers I named, I've heard Magico get closer to something I could imagine a path to credibility for than the other two. Still, life is short, and there are so many other things to do than having a prolonged wrestle with this style of speaker to get it into a window of musicality when something like a Fyne F1-12 makes so easy. Everyone is running their own race, I suppose.

Phil

Sure, some speakers make it easier. My Reference 3A Reflector speakers also make it *relatively* easy, even though they too are rather sensitive to disturbances that affect timbre. For example, a Pass B1 passive buffered preamp added a metallic character to the sound, which was removed by substitution with an Octave preamp that matches my Octave amp. I also had to pay renewed attention to the acoustics of my room upon acquiring the speakers, because the highly resolving sound reacted to and showed all the flaws, in a quite merciless manner, I should say.

My previous Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors were much more forgiving, and much easier to make musically enjoyable. But the sound was also markedly less resolved, and musical engagement, enjoyable as it was, turned out to have been still on a substantially lower level than what I have now with my current speakers -- *after* thorough optimization of system environment and acoustics. Before that optimization, the older speakers were certainly "easier" to listen to.

 

[treitz3]

I have resisted posting in this thread, but given Keith's post, I feel it's the right time to chime in. <snip>

While I do appreciate the finer things in life...the one thing I have found in this hobby is that money spent does not necessarily equate to better sound. Your post alludes to that and I'll respond further on that point to say in your own words, "it's a huge leap, and frankly, it is pure intellectual dishonesty".

I say that with all due respect and I am not at all excluding the rest of what you stated. This is just me chiming in.

Tom

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I have commented before that my fiance noticed with YG i was playing audiophile recordings, and usually tracks not albums. With the Fynes I'm playing everything. I think that's really important in my journey. Will this be my last stop? We shall see!

This X1000. All my audiophile demo recordings got moved to a single location in my collection and almost out of it.
I follow this thread daily ( Ron's too, hoping for seeing a system set up eventually) as it follows a lot of my thought processes and directions I am headed in my new room. Even with my current set up I find myself listening to complete albums and playlists and less to almost no audiophile demo music.

There has been some of the most comprehensive level headed practical conversation here, bravo gentlemen!

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, the consistency of your judgment, apparently based on many suboptimal auditions, being totally off the mark is remarkable indeed.

I don't care if you have heard Magico 20 times or more in different contexts. If all these 20 times or more were under suboptimal conditions, you still haven't heard a single time what Magico really can do. Which obviously you didn't.

You think you are so experienced, Ked. In some ways you are, I'll gladly grant you that. In other important ways, you clearly are *not*.

So what you are saying is all those were suboptimal. Amazing you know that from your chair. Maybe that's how the speaker is and you think the one you heard is optimal because...

 

[Sampajanna]

One thing I agree with here is that high quality, high-power amplification is not cheap. At least not usually and certainly not if vacuum tube based. Though within solid state, the Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition shames very many high-power amps priced heroically stratospheric. YG chooses to put into the market a line of speakers that require a disproportionate expense on amplification before they or their dealers will accept judgment about the resulting sound.

However, there's much to disagree with. First, taking the position that taking delivery of YG Hailey means one will be hearing everything else in the chain but the speakers is nonsense. Excepting the speakers is tantamount to contending the speaker is perfect, which it is not. While the "everything matters" school of audiophilia is essentially correct that everything results in sonic consequences that can be heard (but might not be), transducers are the most compromised category of sound reproduction products and are very far from perfection. Put a YG speaker as the output of a system, and you are still hearing the YG impose itself on everything that came before it. It still sounds like a crossover-intensive speaker with driver-discontinuities and dynamic choking at the crossover points, among other traits.

The problem with a $46,000 speaker pair that its own dealer says requires $40K worth of "abundant" amplification before he will accept validity of any judgements about the speaker is that the owner is forced into a very narrow range of amplifier design choices, all of which have common problems a system owner might not want to incur -- the primary one being forced into solid state amps of 500w - 1200w relying on massed output devices. That by itself imposes a sound profile that rides on top of individual differences between amps. I expect Bricasti amplification to be able to cope with YG, but that still is in a narrow bracket of amplification, as is the Ampzilla. I have a recent acquaintance going through the same thing with Wilson in his system. No matter what he spends on amps, it sounds clean but not musical. His wife cannot listen to the system. He's certainly spent enough money, though not the way I'd have spent less. I get private messages and emails every week from people all over the world, asking for my hifi advice. Time and again, the highest incidence of frustration and dissatisfaction is from people who bought into the linearity-over-everything con, that saddled them with crossover-intensive, inefficient speakers, dreadnought solid state amps, spiraling costs and tanked satisfaction. Magico, Wilson, YG lead the dissatisfaction contingent in my email inbox, for the common reason that their aggregate approach to loudspeakers prevents musical realism.

With a speaker like a Fyne, simpler and more efficient, a big advantage was demonstrated when one of the best sounds we got out of the system was by installing a pair of custom Williamson-circuit tube monoblocks, stuffed with NOS Siemens EL34, wired as triodes for ~20w output. They actually produced deeper, tighter bass than some of the solid state amps and the power level was eminently usable, pushing levels too loud for conversation. This is not possible to leverage with a YG. The kicker is these amps are made by a Chinese amp builder and anyone can get a pair for $1500 sans tubes, or $2500 if you want the upgrade. If they were made in the US, they'd probably cost $6,000/pr.

Now, I used a $20,000 pair of PSET amps on $4000, then $6000, then $10,000 Zu Druids, 3 generations over a 15 years span. But not because it was necessary to incur that amplification expense to get the Druids to sound grand. The pairing was synergistic. My solar installation forced eviction of my SET amps. My somewhere-around-$20,000 Zu Definition 6s will be powered by single-ended pentode custom amps in the same price class as the Williamson, because the amps are great, and the speaker can deliver convincing dynamics, scale and elasticity along with accuracy, from 10-25 watts.

My inbox from Zu, Tannoy, Klipsch, vintage Altec, Devore owners, et al, contains requests for advice on getting more realism out of speakers in systems they already like or love. From them, I rarely get the frustration factor present in requests for how to get music out of crossover-intensive, inefficient, multi-drivers speakers. The mainstream market has sold the audio buyer many myths and some lies. The idea that if you put YGs in a system you're hearing everything but the speakers is one of them.

Phil

I can relate to this. To some degree I could have been one of those who emailed you. The solution for me was Marten speakers. To me Marten hv the clarity and resolution of other brands with the right musicality in spades. Mine do require power, but they play nice with just about anything. Marten aren’t as well covered as other brands, but they are very special in just this way of balance.

 

[Al M.]

This X1000. All my audiophile demo recordings got moved to a single location in my collection and almost out of it.
I follow this thread daily ( Ron's too, hoping for seeing a system set up eventually) as it follows a lot of my thought processes and directions I am headed in my new room. Even with my current set up I find myself listening to complete albums and playlists and less to almost no audiophile demo music.

There has been some of the most comprehensive level headed practical conversation here, bravo gentlemen!

Agreed. I don't do the typical audiophile stuff anymore. I haven't spun a number of old "reference" recordings to check the progress of my system in ages. Lately I did order some music from the audiophile label MA Recordings upon following a personal recommendation by the designer of my speakers, out of curiosity. Turns out that I loved the music!

Sure it was well recorded, but I have numerous great sounding "non-audiophile" recordings, so this wasn't the biggest deal. Yet I found the music so appealing and interesting! One was medieval music meets Chinese traditional meets avantgarde (brilliant):

Transcending Continents and Memories (CD), MA Recordings

the other was Argentinian music, "Sera Una Noche":

Sera una Noche redbook CD, MA Recordings

(both recordings also available in hi-res and on LP)

I love the instrumental textures and colors on "Sera Una Noche", and the, for European/North American ears, unique vocal melodic lines in that music.

After having been captivated by those examples of "world music", I ordered three more Argentinian or Argentinian flavored albums from MA recordings, and wonderful music by a duo of acoustic guitarists in Macedonia, in a quite special acoustic:

Krushevo, MA Recordings

(also available on hi-res and LP; some MA recordings may also be available on streaming services)

The musicianship on these MA recordings is usually excellent, by locally well-known or even, in some cases, famous musicians.

And yes, I listened to, or plan to listen to, all those albums in their entirety, several times. And the ones I already listened to extensively, I am not done with yet. I'm too fascinated by the music.

 

[tima]

I don't care if you have heard Magico 20 times or more in different contexts. If all these 20 times or more were under suboptimal conditions, you still haven't heard a single time what Magico really can do. Which obviously you didn't.

Trying to understand this ...

It seems to imply that by definition if one does not hear a Magico speaker evince "a convincing purity and rightness to the sound" then conditions were sub-optimal. Is that what you're saying? Maybe not?

We see this 'argument' or claim fairly often in WBF world. Someone claims that if we don't experience the virtues of ABC component then...
... it's not setup right
... it wasn't matched with the right Amp or DAC or Cables or ...
... poor acoustics are to blame for a poor experience
... etc.

Sometimes perhaps that is the case but as a 'defense' it is prevalent. If someone is dissing a product perhaps they should assure the context in which it was experienced was reasonable. I'll call it 'an argument from sub-optimal conditions'.

 

[bonzo75]

Trying to understand this ...

It seems to imply that by definition if one does not hear a Magico speaker evince "a convincing purity and rightness to the sound" then conditions were sub-optimal. Is that what you're saying?

Yes that's what he is saying but to be fair to him he will think it is pure and right in suboptimal conditions too

 

[KostasP.]

Agreed. I don't do the typical audiophile stuff anymore. I haven't spun a number of old "reference" recordings to check the progress of my system in ages. Lately I did order some music from the audiophile label MA Recordings upon following a personal recommendation by the designer of my speakers, out of curiosity. Turns out that I loved the music!

Sure it was well recorded, but I have numerous great sounding "non-audiophile" recordings, so this wasn't the biggest deal. Yet I found the music so appealing and interesting! One was medieval music meets Chinese traditional meets avantgarde (brilliant):

Transcending Continents and Memories (CD), MA Recordings

the other was Argentinian music, "Sera Una Noche":

Sera una Noche redbook CD, MA Recordings

(both recordings also available in hi-res and on LP)

I love the instrumental textures and colors on "Sera Una Noche", and the, for European/North American ears, unique vocal melodic lines in that music.

After having been captivated by those examples of "world music", I ordered three more Argentinian or Argentinian flavored albums from MA recordings, and wonderful music by a duo of acoustic guitarists in Macedonia, in a quite special acoustic:

Krushevo, MA Recordings

(also available on hi-res and LP; some MA recordings may also be available on streaming services)

The musicianship on these MA recordings is usually excellent, by locally well-known or even, in some cases, famous musicians.

And yes, I listened to, or plan to listen to, all those albums in their entirety, several times. And the ones I already listened to extensively, I am not done with yet. I'm too fascinated by the music.

Hello AL M.,

Better late than never....Todd Garfinkle has been making recordings for 30 years!!! By the way, ALL music is world music ( music for the world ). The inverted commas tend to assign somewhat pejorative connotations. I know you meant well and I am only making a general point.

If this is the start, then your " European \ North American ears" have a lot of "unwaxing" to do!!!

Be well and keep searching, Kostas.

 

[morricab]

One thing I agree with here is that high quality, high-power amplification is not cheap. At least not usually and certainly not if vacuum tube based. Though within solid state, the Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition shames very many high-power amps priced heroically stratospheric. YG chooses to put into the market a line of speakers that require a disproportionate expense on amplification before they or their dealers will accept judgment about the resulting sound.

However, there's much to disagree with. First, taking the position that taking delivery of YG Hailey means one will be hearing everything else in the chain but the speakers is nonsense. Excepting the speakers is tantamount to contending the speaker is perfect, which it is not. While the "everything matters" school of audiophilia is essentially correct that everything results in sonic consequences that can be heard (but might not be), transducers are the most compromised category of sound reproduction products and are very far from perfection. Put a YG speaker as the output of a system, and you are still hearing the YG impose itself on everything that came before it. It still sounds like a crossover-intensive speaker with driver-discontinuities and dynamic choking at the crossover points, among other traits.

The problem with a $46,000 speaker pair that its own dealer says requires $40K worth of "abundant" amplification before he will accept validity of any judgements about the speaker is that the owner is forced into a very narrow range of amplifier design choices, all of which have common problems a system owner might not want to incur -- the primary one being forced into solid state amps of 500w - 1200w relying on massed output devices. That by itself imposes a sound profile that rides on top of individual differences between amps. I expect Bricasti amplification to be able to cope with YG, but that still is in a narrow bracket of amplification, as is the Ampzilla. I have a recent acquaintance going through the same thing with Wilson in his system. No matter what he spends on amps, it sounds clean but not musical. His wife cannot listen to the system. He's certainly spent enough money, though not the way I'd have spent less. I get private messages and emails every week from people all over the world, asking for my hifi advice. Time and again, the highest incidence of frustration and dissatisfaction is from people who bought into the linearity-over-everything con, that saddled them with crossover-intensive, inefficient speakers, dreadnought solid state amps, spiraling costs and tanked satisfaction. Magico, Wilson, YG lead the dissatisfaction contingent in my email inbox, for the common reason that their aggregate approach to loudspeakers prevents musical realism.

With a speaker like a Fyne, simpler and more efficient, a big advantage was demonstrated when one of the best sounds we got out of the system was by installing a pair of custom Williamson-circuit tube monoblocks, stuffed with NOS Siemens EL34, wired as triodes for ~20w output. They actually produced deeper, tighter bass than some of the solid state amps and the power level was eminently usable, pushing levels too loud for conversation. This is not possible to leverage with a YG. The kicker is these amps are made by a Chinese amp builder and anyone can get a pair for $1500 sans tubes, or $2500 if you want the upgrade. If they were made in the US, they'd probably cost $6,000/pr.

Now, I used a $20,000 pair of PSET amps on $4000, then $6000, then $10,000 Zu Druids, 3 generations over a 15 years span. But not because it was necessary to incur that amplification expense to get the Druids to sound grand. The pairing was synergistic. My solar installation forced eviction of my SET amps. My somewhere-around-$20,000 Zu Definition 6s will be powered by single-ended pentode custom amps in the same price class as the Williamson, because the amps are great, and the speaker can deliver convincing dynamics, scale and elasticity along with accuracy, from 10-25 watts.

My inbox from Zu, Tannoy, Klipsch, vintage Altec, Devore owners, et al, contains requests for advice on getting more realism out of speakers in systems they already like or love. From them, I rarely get the frustration factor present in requests for how to get music out of crossover-intensive, inefficient, multi-drivers speakers. The mainstream market has sold the audio buyer many myths and some lies. The idea that if you put YGs in a system you're hearing everything but the speakers is one of them.

Phil

I would go even further that high quality high power amplification doesn’t exist.

 

[Al M.]

Hello AL M.,

Better late than never....Todd Garfinkle has been making recordings for 30 years!!! By the way, ALL music is world music ( music for the world ). The inverted commas tend to assign somewhat pejorative connotations. I know you meant well and I am only making a general point.

If this is the start, then your " European \ North American ears" have a lot of "unwaxing" to do!!!

Be well and keep searching, Kostas.

Sure, Kostas, I think all if our ears have some unwaxing to do . I am also listening to lots of classical avantgarde, and jazz avantgarde, that most people would either be completely bewildered by, or run out of the room screaming when they would hear it. At the same time, I am very well versed in "traditional" classical music, and also listen to more standard jazz, next to lots of very diverse rock and pop. So in general, even though I have not yet listened much to such world music as on the MA label, I qualify as much as anyone as a musical omnivore. My taste for good music hardly knows any boundaries.

I agree that all music is world music.

 

[Mdp632]

Some interesting comments here regarding YG.

Did @KeithR give consideration to a possible Hailey 2.2i (with the new crossover) before his decision to purchase the Fynes?

It is my understanding that this new crossover not, only increases performance but, lessens the current requirements , thus opening up more amplifier choices.

I have to say as a Carmel 2 owner, I share similar thoughts as @asiufy regarding the microscope these speakers provide to your frontend.

You can hear every change, for better or worse.

Many see this is a downside, however, I see it as YG having scalability.

I’m looking to what the future holds for the brand. Hopefully, the much rumored “accessible” line of speakers to sit below the Carmel 2 in terms of pricing.

Ads from YG (with their new logo) in the latest issue of TAS and Stereophile are hinting at something big coming.

 

[PeterA]

Trying to understand this ...

It seems to imply that by definition if one does not hear a Magico speaker evince "a convincing purity and rightness to the sound" then conditions were sub-optimal. Is that what you're saying? Maybe not?

We see this 'argument' or claim fairly often in WBF world. Someone claims that if we don't experience the virtues of ABC component then...
... it's not setup right
... it wasn't matched with the right Amp or DAC or Cables or ...
... poor acoustics are to blame for a poor experience
... etc.

Sometimes perhaps that is the case but as a 'defense' it is prevalent. If someone is dissing a product perhaps they should assure the context in which it was experienced was reasonable. I'll call it 'an argument from sub-optimal conditions'.

Tim, I see how you reached this conclusion, but what I have noticed a lot of lately on WBF is the notion that it all comes down to personal priorities and pleasing our individual preferences. In other words the whole hobby is so subjective that we really can’t make assessments about quality in absolute terms.

On the other hand, I do see many attempts of people trying to convince others about what is good and why. It is all so fascinating.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
I have to say as a Carmel 2 owner, I share similar thoughts as @asiufy regarding the microscope these speakers provide to your frontend.

You can hear every change, for better or worse.

Many see this is a downside, however, I see it as YG having unlimited scalability.

. . .

. . . what I have noticed a lot of lately on WBF is the notion that it all comes down to personal priorities and pleasing our individual preferences. In other words the whole hobby is so subjective that we really can’t make assessments about quality in absolute terms.

On the other hand I do see many attempts of people trying to convince others about what is good and why.

We sometimes get contentious and talk past each other and don't understand each other's posts because we don't understand each other's subjective preferences. The lens focus becomes much more clear, however, when we understand that the subjective preferences we are articulating are driven by our implicit hobby objective.

Someone who wants to "hear every change, for better or worse" likely has implicitly adopted Objective 2) "reproduce exactly what is on the tape, vinyl or digital source being played."

Someone who wants "musicality" or naturalness likely has implicitly adopted Objective 1) "recreate the sound of an original musical event," or Objective 4) "create a sound that seems live."

If we understand each other's implicit, underlying hobby objectives, we can better understand each other's explicit, posted views.