I've definitely considered that. The box to pack it in isn't small, of course, but it is light!
Auditioning a turntable is kind of ... impossible?
- Thread starter dnanian
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Subscribed. PS it’s tough/impossible to audition a tonearm, too. Ask me how I know.
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Hello Dnanian,
Welcome to What's Best Forum!
I think you ask an extremely valid question, and I think you are looking at the question the right way. Unfortunately there are no easy answers. Forget easy answers; there are not even any good answers!
Ultimately there likely is going to be a significant leap of faith involved. It is unlikely that you will be able to compare, side-by-side, the Bergman Galder + Odin and the Air Force Three Premium + Graham Phantom Elite.
Even if you could make this comparison you still would not be hearing, apples-to-apples, the Bergmann Galder by itself versus the AF3P by itself. For that comparison each turntable would need to have the same tonearm and the same cartridge, and both would have adjusted and aligned the same way on each turntable.
Only because there may be no better options in the case of turntables, perhaps reviews by Michael Fremer are more probative for turntables than is the case for other components.
How does one talk oneself into making such a leap of faith? Does one learn about turntable technical design? Does one learn about direct drive versus belt drive versus idler, and select a theoretical preference, and then look for turntables which use that drive system? Does one go by the visual and aesthetic machining and finishing quality of the product? Does one go by how it feels when you play with it and operate it? I think all of these non-scientific, non-audition-based factors get baked into the leap-of-faith cake.
I ordered my turntable without ever hearing my specific model.
The good news, for you, I think, is that both the Bergmann Galder and the AF3P are wonderful turntables! I have heard each of them numerous times in friends' systems. I would encourage you to consider the Bergmann Galder + Odin as a package.
Specifically, I would encourage you to:
1) Read carefully the reviews by Michael Fremer of each of the two turntables you are considering.
2) Read about both turntables in threads here on WBF discussing them.
3) See each of them at a dealer or at a friend's house and play with them and see if one of them attracts you in some way.
4) Assess which dealer will take seriously initial and ongoing responsibility for setting the turntable up and for aligning the cartridge. I feel that there are very few truly expert cartridge alignment specialists out there, and without proper cartridge alignment and turntable set-up you will not be realizing the sonic capability of which either of these vinyl replay set-ups is capable. Alternatively allocate in your budget a plan for somebody like Stirling Trayle to visit you on-site and adjust your cartridge expertly.
Members here may have strong partisan views on the two turntables you are considering, but I think each of them is great. I could easily listen happily ever after with either one of them.
Welcome to What's Best Forum!
I think you ask an extremely valid question, and I think you are looking at the question the right way. Unfortunately there are no easy answers. Forget easy answers; there are not even any good answers!
Ultimately there likely is going to be a significant leap of faith involved. It is unlikely that you will be able to compare, side-by-side, the Bergman Galder + Odin and the Air Force Three Premium + Graham Phantom Elite.
Even if you could make this comparison you still would not be hearing, apples-to-apples, the Bergmann Galder by itself versus the AF3P by itself. For that comparison each turntable would need to have the same tonearm and the same cartridge, and both would have adjusted and aligned the same way on each turntable.
Only because there may be no better options in the case of turntables, perhaps reviews by Michael Fremer are more probative for turntables than is the case for other components.
How does one talk oneself into making such a leap of faith? Does one learn about turntable technical design? Does one learn about direct drive versus belt drive versus idler, and select a theoretical preference, and then look for turntables which use that drive system? Does one go by the visual and aesthetic machining and finishing quality of the product? Does one go by how it feels when you play with it and operate it? I think all of these non-scientific, non-audition-based factors get baked into the leap-of-faith cake.
I ordered my turntable without ever hearing my specific model.
The good news, for you, I think, is that both the Bergmann Galder and the AF3P are wonderful turntables! I have heard each of them numerous times in friends' systems. I would encourage you to consider the Bergmann Galder + Odin as a package.
Specifically, I would encourage you to:
1) Read carefully the reviews by Michael Fremer of each of the two turntables you are considering.
2) Read about both turntables in threads here on WBF discussing them.
3) See each of them at a dealer or at a friend's house and play with them and see if one of them attracts you in some way.
4) Assess which dealer will take seriously initial and ongoing responsibility for setting the turntable up and for aligning the cartridge. I feel that there are very few truly expert cartridge alignment specialists out there, and without proper cartridge alignment and turntable set-up you will not be realizing the sonic capability of which either of these vinyl replay set-ups is capable. Alternatively allocate in your budget a plan for somebody like Stirling Trayle to visit you on-site and adjust your cartridge expertly.
Members here may have strong partisan views on the two turntables you are considering, but I think each of them is great. I could easily listen happily ever after with either one of them.
Don't read too much, you might start desiring OMA K3 and the SAT
Yeah, I noticed that. I also noted that Nishikawa-san uses both the Graham and the SAT.
Not to single this out specifically out of a long post (for which I thank you), but I have, indeed, read his assessments of the two turntables (although I don't remember one for the III - I think he reviewed the V, I and Zero; Heilbrunn at TAS reviewed the III) over the years.
I found his review of the Bergmann curious. He spends about 7/8s of the review hating on tangential arms (especially these specific types), and 1/8th of the review liking the Bergmann...although he clearly felt that its imaging was a weak point.
He clearly liked the TechDAS units...although one comment he had about warps and vacuum hold-down generated a question that I asked the Bergmann folks. Namely:
I didn't understand that, and he didn't explain in the review. The Bergmann response was basically "I've never heard of that".
Anyway, like anything else, you can spend x to get 95% and then 1000x to get 5%...I think I'd be happy with 95%, given my own shortcomings.
OK Bonzo, that’s pretty funny.
First a clarification, and then an observation. The clarification is that I have learned to only rarely offer advice about what people should get. The observation is that some people invite themselves to hear systems and others wait for an invitation.
Idiosyncratically for me, because I love what the linear-tracking Odin (and what linear-trackers in general) sounds like on vocals, I would buy the Galder + Odin. But one could replicate that sound by putting a Reed 5T on the AF3P. (I have heard this exact combination, and I love it.)
Put another way, between these two turntables you cannot make a mistake.
Put another way, between these two turntables you cannot make a mistake.
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This summarizes the post I was writing, I subscribe it!
Besides the vacuum LP hold down feature, one main difference between the two turntables is the motor type - DC with tachometer feedback versus synchronous motor driven by two phase sine wave. Pick your poison!
Both have been reviewed by Michael Fremer in Stereophile.
I heard that OMA at Framer's and it was pretty darn nice. I'm going to be back there in July. I wonder what he will have next.
he now owns the K3, so it will be there. the others might rotate thru. maybe the Nagra next.....but the K3 is staying.
I found it. It wasn't on Analog Planet - it's on the Stereophile site. I thought I'd read it at some point! Thanks for the additional prod.
TT audition is difficult...almost impossible. Most beneficial audition you get will be an audition that has multiple tts in the same system with at least the same cartridge. You likely find those only in private system. If you find in a shop, the shop likely have to take the cartridge off from one tt and put it on another. By the time he finished switching cart from one arm to another, your hearing memory already diminish substantially. You want to hear from a system that can switch in a few seconds like MikeL system. A system with single tt will mostly give you impression of the whole system. So when audition tt try to do it in a system that has different tt for comparison and also make sure you listen to different types of music with all those tts.
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Is it DD? I looked at the website and it was too steeped in marketing speak to make sense of.
Sounds like you have an opportunity for discovery and entertainment in your future. Personally, I think of a turntable, arm, cart and phono stage, as a complete system within a system. There are just as many opportunities for fun as foible. Once you do balance the parts into a desirable whole, you hopefully know that it will mate well in its final resting place.
Of course Bob Graham lives in Medford and his office is in Woburn. When I was a burgeoning audiophile, I used to genuflect when I went by his house : ) ...it was on the way to the bike path.
You may well have already approached it from a topological perspective. Listen to a top belt drive. , idler and direct drive...mass loaded and not mass loaded...suspension or not, etc. See if anything gains your fancy. I've found that all can sound fairly wonderful and fairly poor. It's so much about the synergy, execution and worth of the design.
On a different front, you're welcome to come to one of our vinyl nights in Gloucester. I don't know if we have anything of interest for you in terms of a table, but I do imagine you'd have an interesting time where pressings and music are concerned. Just this afternoon a new vinyl buddy stopped in with pressings I could only dream of...(he used to own a fairly large used record store in Boston) We had a great impromptu listen on the full Destination Audio System.
We also have the Igniculus Phono Stage from Synaestec which is ridiculously fine. Of course the WE417A Phono Stage from Destination and we'll soon have a Collins Phono Stage from Trafomatic. (by soon, I mean by the holidays) We have a few Dava Field Coil Carts in house and some other interesting bits and pieces.
Regarding which turntable Bonzo 75 would assert I might recommend? Well, none...we'd pour you a few cask strength rums and you'd wake up with a new system on your new (to you) houseboat. Noise floor almost doesn't matter when the harbor gets choppy. Don't worry, we'll put everything on a Minus K platform : )
In all seriousness, I hope you enjoy the process of finding whatever it is you settle on...
It is not an easy task, but one can learn by listening. Direct comparisons are always best, in multiple settings. Over time and with experience, one can eventually reach some conclusions about the turntable's contribution to the overall sound of a system. For me, it is all about resolution and presentation. Different degrees of information are extracted and then presented more or less naturally. If one hears lots of information from a familiar recording, one can conclude that it is coming from the cartridge/arm/turntable combination and making it through the rest of the system to hear at the listening seat. If not, then there are issues somewhere and one can't really conclude much about the TT. However, if one hears a lot and it is presented well (naturally, or in some way pleasing to the listener), then the TT is worth further investigation. With exposure, one begins to understand basic attributes like an lively and nuanced presentation versus a damped and impressive presentation. Listen for life and energy versus black backgrounds and silence between notes. Listen to the attack and decays of piano notes, drive, and flow, weight and body.
I have done a few direct turntable comparison in my system, changing only the table: a low mass semi suspended design versus a heavier full suspension design. A direct drive versus a belt drive. A suspended belt drive versus a high mass non suspended belt drive. A DC versus AC synchronous motor. Differences are pretty clear. I have also heard very similar systems where the only difference is the TT and the room. After a while, you get a sense of what to listen for. Compare drive types, motor types, stretchy belts and non stretchy belts, high mass, low mass, suspended and non suspended. After a while, you reach conclusions about the different approaches. Once one finds a preferred type, then it becomes about execution. The biggest sonic indications, IMO, are bass quality, a solid foundation, weight, and a sense of ambient information full of life and energy. Members like Bonzo, Tango, DDK and a few others have the exposure and experience to understand these differences, and which turntable types provide what. Search out their turntable reports. It is not an easy task, and until you understand what your like best and why, the search will continue. IMO, there are quite a few turntables that are good and satisfying. If you are lucky to hear the few that are better, it will be quite clear.
I have done a few direct turntable comparison in my system, changing only the table: a low mass semi suspended design versus a heavier full suspension design. A direct drive versus a belt drive. A suspended belt drive versus a high mass non suspended belt drive. A DC versus AC synchronous motor. Differences are pretty clear. I have also heard very similar systems where the only difference is the TT and the room. After a while, you get a sense of what to listen for. Compare drive types, motor types, stretchy belts and non stretchy belts, high mass, low mass, suspended and non suspended. After a while, you reach conclusions about the different approaches. Once one finds a preferred type, then it becomes about execution. The biggest sonic indications, IMO, are bass quality, a solid foundation, weight, and a sense of ambient information full of life and energy. Members like Bonzo, Tango, DDK and a few others have the exposure and experience to understand these differences, and which turntable types provide what. Search out their turntable reports. It is not an easy task, and until you understand what your like best and why, the search will continue. IMO, there are quite a few turntables that are good and satisfying. If you are lucky to hear the few that are better, it will be quite clear.
Where I disagree with this is he is coming from Rega, so his interpretation of what's tight and loose could be different from yours, especially given what recordings and music he uses. He might now hear some upgrade from Rega and think that's tight ( or that's loose). Instead he just needs to listen enough till he forms his own definition of what type of bass he likes (same with other parameters or as a whole).
I think just listening to differences helps. He will then form his own scale for fat, thin, slow, fast, PRAT, flow, nuance, laid back, too aggressive, etched, balanced, etc...imo right now where he is at there is too much information to distil.
He will also pick up overall system preferences in the process
The unfortunate thing with analog compares is experience with records comes later, not at the start.
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Hi,
A few comments for consideration:
Rega TTs in the plethora of systems I have heard them tend to sound:
> Faster and precise
> Slightly on the leaner than the meatier side
> Quite high upper register detail
> Bass tight but not terribly extended
> One of the more “digital” sounding TTs (as opposed to say Notts Analogue which would be very analogue sounding)
Do you like the existing presentation and want more of it or are you missing something? If so what?
Fwiw - I personally would take the Galder because I have owned the Sindre and loved it but the Galder has more of everything. I love linear tracking arms and the inner nuance, space, and air that tends to come with them. It wouldn’t be my first choice if you were a rocker first and foremost. I would take the TechDas with a pivoted arm.
Best.
A few comments for consideration:
Rega TTs in the plethora of systems I have heard them tend to sound:
> Faster and precise
> Slightly on the leaner than the meatier side
> Quite high upper register detail
> Bass tight but not terribly extended
> One of the more “digital” sounding TTs (as opposed to say Notts Analogue which would be very analogue sounding)
Do you like the existing presentation and want more of it or are you missing something? If so what?
Fwiw - I personally would take the Galder because I have owned the Sindre and loved it but the Galder has more of everything. I love linear tracking arms and the inner nuance, space, and air that tends to come with them. It wouldn’t be my first choice if you were a rocker first and foremost. I would take the TechDas with a pivoted arm.
Best.
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