Auditioning a turntable is kind of ... impossible?

[dnanian]

You can eliminate this potential issue with a table that doesn’t have a feedback mechanism. I had an AF5 and loved it. The CSPort TAT2M2 I have now is a very clear step up from that. No feedback, no vacuum. I think one person on this forum preferred the TAT2M2 to the AF3P, and it’s much cheaper if you shop smart.

I don't think this is a general problem with the AF 'tables, given they're well regarded for their speed stability. Rather, I think there's something wrong with this particular unit, and I'm at a loss to understand what. But it's certainly not a problem my own 'tables suffer from, and it jumps right out.

I'm looking forward to finding out what was actually wrong when it's fixed.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Understood. So you'd basically put this in a "lost cause" bucket - given the end-state ADDA/Class D/DSP setup, any other chances before that state are effectively pointless beyond a basic level of competence.


My point there is that it eliminates all the other factors...not that I prefer headphone listening...and ends up being a much more "straightforward" Class A setup. Solid state, however. But analog.

I wouldn’t say lost cause because that would be a rude assessment for me. I personally just wouldn’t go shelling big dollars on an analogue rig that was going to end up being digitised.

What is your digital source into the B&O? A great server feeding a digital stream might be very interesting.

There are others who will disagree and perfectly happy to do this so I am only one data point

 

[dnanian]

wouldn’t say lost cause because that would be a rude assessment for me. I personally just wouldn’t go shelling big dollars on an analogue rig that was going to end up being digitised.

I don't mind rude assessments. But I understood your perspective (and expected it from one or more).

What is your digital source into the B&O? A great server feeding a digital stream might be very interesting.

I have two - a PS Audio Direct Stream (which again, ends up DADA) and a more direct Sonore microRendu (which is pure D into the speaker).

The server is a Roon Nucleus+, with local content coming from a Synology 2415+.

I've had that setup for quite some time. But as I said earlier, I do enjoy my analog source more.

I appreciate the thoughts, Bill, truly. Thank you.

 

[shakti]

I am frequently playing around with different turntables and tried to understand how to set them up in a way, that I like their performance.

If you look into the variables of the rack, the platform, the drive unit, the tonearm, the cartridge, you can combine this factors in a way, that the Bergmann and the TechDAS do sound very similar.

Both turntables are very good value for the price point and do look nice, the foot print is similar.

From there I would go for the better deal and than start the learning curve of setting the unit up in a way,
that the sound fits your taste and expectation.

The difference between for example Lyra, Ortofon, vdh, Koetsu, Air Tight, Etsuro, soundsmith carts are potentially much bigger,
than the difference in sonic characteristic between this two turntables.

Same for tonearms in combination with the mentioned carts.

 

[dnanian]

If you look into the variables of the rack, the platform, the drive unit, the tonearm, the cartridge, you can combine this factors in a way, that the Bergmann and the TechDAS do sound very similar.

So, taking this slightly further...you would suggest (I think) that unsuspended, high-mass turntables in general are going to have the same overall sound (over-generalizing, I know), and most of the difference is going to be in the cartridge and, perhaps, how well it can be set up. Comparisons of those two may have less of a point.

Rega's approach and theory - basically eliminating the mass entirely, and offering almost no isolation, save for the construction of the feet and the hollows and chambers therein - is different. Comparing that to the high-mass units, cartridge being equal, would display more significant differences.

And the B&O - despite its age - is a different animal entirely. It's suspended, with a heavy cast zinc subchassis (and chassis), a not-insubstantial platter (unlike later 400x models, the original 4000 has an AC motor and a heavy platter with a more advanced bearing)...and its tonearm is quite different (despite the modern SoundSmith cartridge)...certainly, the audible differences are quite noticeable to me, but it would be quite hard (impossible, really) to 'equalize' many of the factors there...so it's hard to point at the differentiating factor. (I don't want to suggest that the BG4000 is equivalent, but it was quite something in 1972. I'm still a little amazed at what they designed back then.)

 

[bonzo75]

The difference between for example Lyra, Ortofon, vdh, Koetsu, Air Tight, Etsuro, soundsmith carts are potentially much bigger,
than the difference in sonic characteristic between this two turntables.

Same for tonearms in combination with the mentioned carts.

dnanian, to back what Shakti says, see here my post in which a Galder was involved - in Oslo, with Allaerts finish gold on the Odin linear tracker, SPU Royale on the Schick, dynavector xv-1s on the kuzma 4p, and accuphase c27 and Allnic 1500 phonos, latter updated with original WE tubes

I did compare to his Galder and Garrard back then, I preferred the Avid set up the most, and he explained that was due to the combo of the SME and the VDH on the Avid as he had been moving that around and at that moment it was on his Avid. I could not isolate the Avid sound there, it was the lowest Avid model. Butthe SME VDH made the bigger difference.

Decisions

After many upgrades on my Avenger Reference (Si3N4 grade 3 bearing, sapphire thrust, calibrated epdm orings and belts, rim drive mass, Phoenix Engineering Eagle and Roadrunner) and a new Kuzma 4P with Kondo straight wiring to balanced Swiss Lemo connectors (what a sound revelation comparing to...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The difference between for example Lyra, Ortofon, vdh, Koetsu, Air Tight, Etsuro, soundsmith carts are potentially much bigger, than the difference in sonic characteristic between this two turntables.

agree. three years ago had Clearaudio GFS, Ortofon Anna, and a few different vdH's including the Master Signature. then added the Ortofon Anna Diamond. all these cartridges sounded different. then i added two more turntables. found that the cartridges made bigger differences and moved on from those other cartridges to the Etsuro Gold, ended up with three of those.

past a certain level of turntable performance, cartridges have the biggest influence.

Same for tonearms in combination with the mentioned carts.

just added a different arm; the Primary Control FCL. this is a significant step up in tone arm performance and likely more significant to overall performance than how my three turntables effect it. but i'm still learning about this question.

at the end of the day, get a good solid turntable, then the best cartridge you can and best arm. which allows great pressings to be optimized.

cartridges are like heads on tape decks. yes; you do need a high quality transport. but the heads and properly executed tape recordings are the big picture.

 

[shakti]

So, taking this slightly further...you would suggest (I think) that unsuspended, high-mass turntables in general are going to have the same overall sound (over-generalizing, I know), and most of the difference is going to be in the cartridge and, perhaps, how well it can be set up. Comparisons of those two may have less of a point.

Bonzo and Mike already added their point of view, underlining,
that a solid turntable is the base to hear differences between tonearms and cartridges.
I am using SME 3012r, FR64s or Sorane TA-1/TA-1L tonearms to compare turntables, as I have more than one of this tonearms.
It is relatively easy to hear the difference of the turntables as well as their level of quality.
A TechDAS AF5P will not perform like a AF3, but even the AF3 will be outperformed by the AF3P and so on, using same arm and cart.
But some might prefer the SME3012R plus vdh Gran Cru combination on a AF5P versus a Sorane TA-1 plus Ortofon Verismo on AF3.
And than it will be again a jump in resolution / blackness to compare both combinations on AF3P
AF3P is a great turntable, but it only performs best, if a good and solid Rack/Base is given.
(In my case an Accordion i4L active base on an Artesania Rack) If you cannot provide a solid, heavy base, you might choose the "S" version with Gel damping, otherwise I would prefer the massive feets.

In your case both turntables will be a good base for any tonearm / cartridge combination and will get you the difference of both.

I know, I repeat myself, but with a given budget, I would choose the better deal on turntable, invest the saved money to get the best tonearm / Cart combination I can afford.

For instance I just got the customized AF3P tonearm base for my Durand Tosca from Japan and I am looking forward to choose a nice mating Cart (Ortofon Verismo or Anna or Lyra Etna lamda or Etsuro Gold are waiting). I like on my AF3P the vintage FR64s or FR66s tonearms in combination with Kuzma Tigereye, combining a Glanz 124 or the newer 1200 Tonarm with a Ortofon SPU Century is fun, the AS Axiom with the Phasemation PP-2000 is a great combination as well, SME3012R with vdh Gran Cru is well described in this forum, Ikeda 407 was a nice mate with my EMT Novel, Schroeder CB-1 is great with Soundsmith Hyperion...

What I mean is, there are many arm/cart combinations out there, which could fit your taste and gear, that I would spent more time to choose and try out than for the decision between the 2 named turntables

 

[mtemur]

Yes, cartridges make a bigger difference than tonearms or turntables in general. That’s a well accepted fact but cartridges can only achieve their best performance when they’re paired with best performing decks and tonearms. You can’t get top performance from a top performer cartridge with basic deck and tonearm. A great deck is a must for certain level in analog disc playback. Instead of using a 15K cartridge with a rega or technics -1200 I would buy 15K turntable and use 1K cartridge.
if the cartridge is the motor of a car then turntable is the chassis and tonearm is body and suspension. You can not get top performance from a w12 ferrari engine in a beetle.

 

[shakti]

Yes, cartridges make a bigger difference than tonearms or turntables in general. That’s a well accepted fact but cartridges can only achieve their best performance when they’re paired with best performing decks and tonearms. You can’t get top performance from a top performer cartridge with basic deck and tonearm. A great deck is a must for certain level in analog disc playback. Instead of using a 15K cartridge with a rega or technics -1200 I would buy 15K turntable and use 1K cartridge.
if the cartridge is the motor of a car then turntable is the chassis and tonearm is body and suspension. You can not get top performance from a w12 ferrari engine in a beetle.

100% agree.
But If I understand the question correct, it is the decision between Bergmann Galder or TechDAS AF3P,
which are both fine and can make the difference on carts / arms audible.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I liked this one the most in munich .
Besides good sound there is the visual aspect as well .
Best low cost one i heard was Dr Feickert at a dealer , I like TW acoustic and the bigger Transrotors too.
But its hard to seperate the TT influence as there are so many variables involved

 

[PeterA]

100% agree.
But If I understand the question correct, it is the decision between Bergmann Galder or TechDAS AF3P,
which are both fine and can make the difference on carts / arms audible.

I have not heard these two specific turntables, so perhaps my comment below will not add any value to the discussion. After years of trying only a few different turntables, cartridges and tonearms, I have found that in terms of allocating resources, I would focus on the quality of the turntable before cartridge and tonearm. In my opinion, that is where added money can make the biggest sonic difference. I happen to prefer the sound of high mass belt drive turntables as a category. Unfortunately, quality and results in this specific area, mean you get more by spending more, often much more by much more.

My comparisons have also led me to conclude that an inexpensive arm like the vintage SME3012R can outperform or at least be very close to the most expensive tonearms available. I found the same to be true with carefully selected vintage cartridges.

What all this means is, based on my own preferences and listening comparisons, mostly in my own system over a lot of time, I have decided to spend much more money on the turntable then on the arm and cartridge in pursuit of better sound. One might look at my cartridges and say the Colibrís are expensive, but knowing now when I’ve learned, and if forced to choose for budget allocation reasons, I would keep my vintage Technics moving magnet cartridge and vintage SME tonearm, both extremely high value performers, and be done and put any and all remaining resources toward the best high mass unsuspended belt drive turntable I could find.

The relationship between price and performance in this hobby is a fascinating one. Some might even choose to allocate resources towards software rather than the hardware, once he’s reached a certain level of equipment and sound.

 

[shakti]

After years of trying only a few different turntables, cartridges and tonearms, I have found that in terms of allocating resources, I would focus on the quality of the turntable before cartridge and tonearm. In my opinion, that is where added money can make the biggest sonic difference. I happen to prefer the sound of high mass belt drive turntables as a category. Unfortunately, quality and results in this specific area, mean you get more by spending more, often much more by much more.

fully agree, the start is always the "best" turntable you can get for your budget! (You may remember, that I owned the SX-8000 as well)

But both chosen turntables fulfill the specs to be a good turntable, which means they make the sonic differences of arms and carts audible. Even if their sonic signature is slightly different, this difference becomes small compared to the differences arm/cart combinations can make.

 

[dnanian]

What I mean is, there are many arm/cart combinations out there, which could fit your taste and gear, that I would spent more time to choose and try out than for the decision between the 2 named turntables

Totally agreed. It's unfortunate I don't have a "cartridge and arm cellar", like a wine cellar, where I can switch around a lot and discover exactly this within the context of my own system...which (and I know I'm repeating myself) is why I asked the question in the first place.

I could run around to dealers and houses all over the country, and hear all these turntables, cartridges and arms in all these places, the way I've heard them at shows, and at the end of it all be no closer to truly understanding how things would be in my own setup...rather, I'd have heard a lot of lovely systems playing music I know (or, perhaps, don't know).

Maybe what we need is a fully stocked, complete Public Turntable Library, where we can check something out with a library card for two weeks.

 

[dnanian]

You can not get top performance from a w12 ferrari engine in a beetle.

I totally accept that. But within this analogy would the Rega P10 be a "beetle"? And if so, would the P1 be a Hot Wheels?

The continuum here is obviously gigantic...and it seems (to me, showing my ignorance) that the jump from a Wildcat to a P1 is a huge step change, whereas a P1 to a P3 is incremental. To stay within that family, a P1 to a P10 is a large change that I can readily hear (but, again, different cartridge). But, say, a P10 to a Naiad? That's a large difference in cost far more than the P8 to P10), certainly, but the approach is basically the same. The motor isolation is the same. The plinth approach is the same in theory even if not in material. The arm is basically the same, as is the geometry.

Anyway, it seems clear this is going to take quite a few additional years to get my arms around (and it may be impossible to make a truly informed decision).

 

[mtemur]

But within this analogy would the Rega P10 be a "beetle"? And if so, would the P1 be a Hot Wheels?

IMHO If you use etsuro gold or a similar top cartridge with it yes, it’s a beetle. But it’s still a fine turntable with appropriate equipment.
I only brought up that analogy because cartridges are mentioned in the discussion and just in case you may consider changing cartridge instead of turntable.

 

[dnanian]

IMHO If you use etsuro gold or a similar top cartridge with it yes, it’s a beetle. But it’s still a fine turntable with appropriate equipment.

OK, so to be clear - you would say with a "top cartridge" there would be no difference between the P10 and, say, a $200 Crosley turntable. They'd both be at the very lowest possible end of performance.

 

[Solypsa]

The Beetle and Ferrari analogy has merit but it is distracting from @shakti point, which was highly specific to @dnanian original question and choices.

In a general way I am of the 'table first' mind and can agree with @mtemur and @PeterA . I am often working with smaller budgets than being considered here and compromise is usually weighted to the cart ( both for best initial performance and because it must be replaced eventually and maybe the budget will have recovered by then ).

As fine as the P10 is, a much richer experience will be had with either table under discussion ( and even the one I mentioned ) and in this context I believe Shakti is spot on.

To the thread title- yes its largely impossible.

1) You read forum experiences to absorb user experience.
2) You go to dealers &/or shows to get a small sense of the sound, to meet people, and see the gear in question 'in the flesh'.
3) between #1 & #2 maybe you get invited to some private homes to listen more and learn more.
4) You then take a walk in a nice park and pick something

 

[Solypsa]

... One might look at my cartridges and say the Colibrís are expensive, but knowing now when I’ve learned, and if forced to choose for budget allocation reasons, I would keep my vintage Technics moving magnet cartridge and vintage SME tonearm, both extremely high value performers, and be done and put any and all remaining resources toward the best high mass unsuspended belt drive turntable I could find.

100% agree these gems from the past ( which were high end in their time ) can be very satisfying. As a fairly small side point, you also benefited from acquiring yours from David, who has posted frequently about the importance of finding good examples. Glad you did!

 

[bonzo75]

Personally I would stay away from the Galder. I think the linear tracker of the galder shows energy only in high efficiency systems, and is relatively wimpish to other tables with lower efficiency. Galder is also not the best in dynamics and bass. There is no point in having it for pivots, its main aim is to have a good value table with a linear tracking arm. There are many better tables for pivots.

Given where you are I would go with the STST Motus II, a FR - 64s and DaVa cartridge. Also have an SME 3012r so you get to audition different cartridges on your journey without spending too much on arms.

As you continue to audition you can then decide what upgrade you require.

I say this after having compared TD 124 with Dava on the 3012r vs Continuum Caliburn with the Etsuro Gold