Auditioning a turntable is kind of ... impossible?

[Bonesy Jonesy]

You might find the Konus Audio Vinyle 3000MC (http://www.konus-audio.com/vinyle-3000mc.html) interesting. Minimalist design, current input, sounds remarkably alive. The gentleman who builds Konus is also the worldwide distributor for Fuuga. Really nice phono.

Thank you 'gestalt' for your suggestion for the Konus Audio 3000MC. Much appreciated. Also a very interesting Phono Stage.
I have read previously on WBF from fellow members that the Fuuga cartridge is a great match for the Kuzma 4Point 11" tonearm.
With a Phono Stage to match the Fuuga, I can imagine the sound will be quite amazing.

 

[Hydrology]

I've had good results with Phasemation EA-550. Solid-state and whisper quiet. But no loading options so it has to be a match for your cart of choice. This was used with the Bergmann / AirTight combo mentioned above.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I bought a one owner second hand Kuzma XL DC with a 4 Point 11" and a My Sonic Lab Eminent EX cartridge from a Kuzma Dealer in Norway blind without listening to it or even seeing it for my UK system. Always wanted a XL DC and have been waiting to purchase the right one for some time now.

Loving the XL DC especially playing through my Hifiman EF1000 & Susvara Headphones which is light years better than my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (guess it should be considering the much higher cost).

Haven't played one CD since I have set up the XL DC (over the last four weeks).

I will now be selling my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (once I get the Apheta 3 repaired via Rega which I accidentally bent the cantilever with my hand without even knowing about it !).

Now considering whether to upgrade the Rega Aura Phono Stage or not to a much higher level Phono Stage ?

Joined the CH Precision club with buying today a used one owner 2021 CH P1 to replace my Rega Aura that I sold this week.

Hope to receive it hopefully by next weekend via a courier express service as it is coming from overseas to the UK and will need to go through UK custom clearance etc.

 

[RalfAM]

May I bring in a completely different point of view here. I am referring to the original question. A record player is a technical product whose properties are usually clearly visible from the outside. Its sound quality is directly related to the vibration behavior of its components. Therefore, with the appropriate technical understanding, one can predict the sound of a turntable very well. The construction of the platter has a very direct influence here.

 

[dnanian]

So, Ralf, to delve a bit deeper: given your 'table's design, you are optimizing for vibration control. Why is a high-mass platter in layers (in your case, graphite, Corian and aluminum) better than, say, a thin sandwich of aluminum and sorbothane? (No doubt something like that has been tried and found wanting.) Or a thick PVC platter that basically mimics the overall properties of the album itself?

I'm sure you went through a lot of different iterations to come up with what you did...

How would you contrast your platter design with, say, the Brinkmann Oasis that you featured on your tonearm page?

 

[RalfAM]

So, Ralf, to delve a bit deeper: given your 'table's design, you are optimizing for vibration control. Why is a high-mass platter in layers (in your case, graphite, Corian and aluminum) better than, say, a thin sandwich of aluminum and sorbothane? (No doubt something like that has been tried and found wanting.) Or a thick PVC platter that basically mimics the overall properties of the album itself?

I'm sure you went through a lot of different iterations to come up with what you did...

How would you contrast your platter design with, say, the Brinkmann Oasis that you featured on your tonearm page?

It was not my intention to draw attention to the Ars Machinae turntable through my post. In German forums such a thing is not allowed at all. A direct comparison with another manufacturer would also be problematic. If it is allowed and desired here, I would of course like to answer the questions in detail.
I think I can elaborate on generally valid things first. The vibration behavior of a component depends on the parameters mass, damping and stiffness. The greater the damping, the faster a vibration process ends. The greater the stiffness, the smaller the amplitude of the oscillation. So you should always make sure that the damping and the stiffness are as large as possible. And that is exactly the challenge. Increasing both parameters at the same time is not easy.

If you like. I can continue here.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

May I bring in a completely different point of view here. I am referring to the original question. A record player is a technical product whose properties are usually clearly visible from the outside. Its sound quality is directly related to the vibration behavior of its components. Therefore, with the appropriate technical understanding, one can predict the sound of a turntable very well. The construction of the platter has a very direct influence here.

I certainly vouch for this theory 'RalfAM' from a couple of weeks ago when I did a direct A to B comparison between the Kuzma XL DC with 4Point & MSL Eminent Ex and the Rega P10 with RB3000 & Apheta 3. Both were being played off the Rega Aura Phono Stage and using the same headphone system (Hifiman EF1000 & Susvara headphones) and speaker (EF1000 and a Chord Choral Prima Pre-Amp & Mezzo 140 Power Amp linked to Focal Electra 1008 Be's) systems.

The XL DC is a far more planted solid foundation TT with deeper bass, a more holographic 3D sound stage, wider and deeper soundstage. You could clearly hear differences in venues. The music sounded just more real and much more musical.

The P10 gave a much brighter sound more like a good digital system with slightly better transparency and more space between instruments to the XL DC. However, it wasn't as musical and real as the XL DC.

The P10 had the advantage that the Apheta 3 cartridge it was factory fitted with, was a perfect match to the Rega Aura whereas maybe the MSL Em Ex wasn't ?

I would like to have done a comparison with my newly acquired (came Wednesday gone) CH P1 Phono Stage, but I sold my Rega P10 last week (also my Rega Aura).

However, listening to the XL DC TT set-up now through my CH P1, I can definitely say that this combo now has far better transparency and space between instruments than the P10 ever had plus still retaining the great characteristics and attributes I heard when it was connected to the Rega Aura as described above.

 

[dnanian]

It was not my intention to draw attention to the Ars Machinae turntable through my post. In German forums such a thing is not allowed at all. A direct comparison with another manufacturer would also be problematic. If it is allowed and desired here, I would of course like to answer the questions in detail.
I think I can elaborate on generally valid things first. The vibration behavior of a component depends on the parameters mass, damping and stiffness. The greater the damping, the faster a vibration process ends. The greater the stiffness, the smaller the amplitude of the oscillation. So you should always make sure that the damping and the stiffness are as large as possible. And that is exactly the challenge. Increasing both parameters at the same time is not easy.

If you like. I can continue here.

I'm sorry, Ralf - I didn't mean to put you in an awkward position. I was talking more about material investigations you might have done as opposed to the investigations others have no doubt made as well. Your experiences would be of interest.

Your comment about "damping" was why I mentioned sorbothane. I mean, there are many materials that are exceptionally damping that aren't massive...and yet it seems that many have gone the "mass" route.

 

[Kingrex]

The construction of the platter has a very direct influence here.

The whole of a TT made up of its parts should be a carefully thought out, tested and validated assembly. So why then second guess the manufacturer and place a mat on the platter. Wouldn't the manufacturer have tried mats? Wouldn't they recommend one that works if they felt it was needed. Why would someone want to alter a major mechanical component of their well designed table.

Also, why don't TT manufacturers recomend a stand to support their products. Something they know the resonant frequency of and have validated the frequrncy is of a compatible nature.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

The whole of a TT made up of its parts should be a carefully thought out, tested and validated assembly. So why then second guess the manufacturer and place a mat on the platter. Wouldn't the manufacturer have tried mats? Wouldn't they recommend one that works if they felt it was needed. Why would someone want to alter a major mechanical component of their well designed table.

Also, why don't TT manufacturers recomend a stand to support their products. Something they know the resonant frequency of and have validated the frequrncy is of a compatible nature.

Rega recommend using their felt mat and their Wall Shelf for their TTs.

With trying both, the sound using the Herbie Audio Lab's 'Way Excellent II Turntable Mat' for the Rega P10 was superior to Rega's felt mat ! It had better bass and not such a sparkly thin treble. Overall it thickened up the sound a bit which to my ears was a good thing as I felt the P10 sounded quite thin and digital like especially with the felt mat.

However, I felt the Rega Wall Shelf was far superior to mounting it on a solid shelf and would even say it's a no brainer if you buy a Rega TT to also buy their Wall Shelf.

 

[RalfAM]

I'm sorry, Ralf - I didn't mean to put you in an awkward position. I was talking more about material investigations you might have done as opposed to the investigations others have no doubt made as well. Your experiences would be of interest.

Your comment about "damping" was why I mentioned sorbothane. I mean, there are many materials that are exceptionally damping that aren't massive...and yet it seems that many have gone the "mass" route.

No problem for me. I have the impression that the others are also interested when I explain my theory further.
If you are aware of the effects of the parameters mass, stiffness and damping, you can look at a platter and judge its vibration characteristics. The most common design in high-end turntables is a solid aluminum platter with few damping elements. This means very high stiffness with relatively low damping. The high stiffness results in a high natural frequency. Therefore, these platters are very good in the bass and mids. In the highs, they are often perceived as dynamic and brilliant, because they add frequencies to the music that are perceived positively. This is also how I heard the Osis with our tonearm.
An explanation of my approach to developing might take you a little too far off topic. Maybe I should explain it elsewhere?

 

[PeterA]

Also, why don't TT manufacturers recomend a stand to support their products. Something they know the resonant frequency of and have validated the frequrncy is of a compatible nature.

Some TT designers do indeed recommend a specific stand. Some design integrated stands and I know one who only sells his rack to his turntable customers. My rack system was designed with the consultation of my turntable designer. It is a collaborative project one off design.

 

[PeterA]

No problem for me. I have the impression that the others are also interested when I explain my theory further

An explanation of my approach to developing might take you a little too far off topic. Maybe I should explain it elsewhere?

Ralph, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic. Please start another thread on the subject.

I am particularly curious because one person commented that my turntable must ring like a bell and another person described it as being very dead sounding. Neither has actually heard the turntable but make claims based on the material and look. To me, it sounds very natural, neither adding high frequencies to the sound nor sounding overly damped.

 

[Kingrex]

My platter seems to be 2" thick delrin on a spring sprung suspension. Is there a better type of material to have a stand made from to compliment it.

 

[Kingrex]

Rega recommend using their felt mat and their Wall Shelf for their TTs.

With trying both, the sound using the Herbie Audio Lab's 'Way Excellent II Turntable Mat' for the Rega P10 was superior to Rega's felt mat ! It had better bass and not such a sparkly thin treble. Overall it thickened up the sound a bit which to my ears was a good thing as I felt the P10 sounded quite thin and digital like especially with the felt mat.

However, I felt the Rega Wall Shelf was far superior to mounting it on a solid shelf and would even say it's a no brainer if you buy a Rega TT to also buy their Wall Shelf.

I do remember Rega has a wall shelf. Rega is very good at making a complete turn key package.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I do remember Rega has a wall shelf. Rega is very good at making a complete turn key package.

Yes a complete (TT, tonearm, cartridge & phono stage etc.) 'plug and play' TT system for the majority of people who don't want to mess around with multiple parameters to set-up and who have no intention of trying different cartridges or different tonearms and don't want to spend lots of money for the TT system itself and for multiple tweaks !

For what they are and for the people and market they are aimed at, Rega products are very good value for money.

 

[RalfAM]

Ralph, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic. Please start another thread on the subject.

I am particularly curious because one person commented that my turntable must ring like a bell and another person described it as being very dead sounding. Neither has actually heard the turntable but make claims based on the material and look. To me, it sounds very natural, neither adding high frequencies to the sound nor sounding overly damped.

If that's okay in WBF, I'll be happy to open a thread explaining my findings on platters. Whereby these things apply in principle also to the other parts of a TT.

 

[Kingrex]

If that's okay in WBF, I'll be happy to open a thread explaining my findings on platters. Whereby these things apply in principle also to the other parts of a TT.

Post the thread link when you make it please

 

[dnanian]

Some TT designers do indeed recommend a specific stand. Some design integrated stands and I know one who only sells his rack to his turntable customers.

I think Ralf actually does this with his "top-end" unit. As I recall, Brinkmann has a specific HRS base (although not a whole stand)...or is it a granite base? Might be both...

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I think Ralf actually does this with his "top-end" unit. As I recall, Brinkmann has a specific HRS base (although not a whole stand)...or is it a granite base? Might be both...

Kuzma also make (or have made for them) a passive anti-vibration platform called the Kuzma 'Platis' that comes in two sizes (54 & 65) for their TTs.
On their website they are also a distributor for the very expensive active anti-vibration platform called the 'Zerovibe 6050P'.