Auditioning a turntable is kind of ... impossible?

[dnanian]

I have a Rega P10. I listen primarily to digital. I thought about upgrading my TT too. Instead, I bought the Aphelion cartridge. I stopped looking for a turntable after that purchase..... Just something else to consider.

I do listen to digital, but for the last few years, I tend to 'investigate' on digital (as opposed to doing blind buys, which I certainly did back in the early days when records were more affordable, despite limited personal means), and then purchase and listen on vinyl, for the most part.

It's not so much because I think vinyl sounds 'better' (it can, of course, and worse, but I'm trying hard to listen past the medium to the music) - it's because it gets me back to a focused ritual, with helps me hear things better. And that focus brings more enjoyment to the experience.

Can I get that same level of focus when listening to my Roon setup? Probably...but it's not forced the same way. I'm not presented with a cover and art as a 'talisman' to concentrate on. I don't have to participate much past just the selection of one or more albums. Beyond that first action, it ends up being passive.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! But for me, it had been missing something...and not along a 'sound quality' axis. And it wasn't it that was missing something: it was me.

Anyway, that's a meandering way of getting to...I've thought about this too. I didn't go for an Aphelion because I didn't want to invest in "more Rega-ness" without trying to listen to and evaluate alternatives...things like, perhaps, the Ortofon Verismo and the Audio-Technica AT-ART1000 (both of which I've heard, but, again, so many variables out of my control that it's hard to know what I'm hearing).

 

[dnanian]

On a different front, you're welcome to come to one of our vinyl nights in Gloucester. I don't know if we have anything of interest for you in terms of a table, but I do imagine you'd have an interesting time where pressings and music are concerned. Just this afternoon a new vinyl buddy stopped in with pressings I could only dream of...(he used to own a fairly large used record store in Boston) We had a great impromptu listen on the full Destination Audio System.

We also have the Igniculus Phono Stage from Synaestec which is ridiculously fine. Of course the WE417A Phono Stage from Destination and we'll soon have a Collins Phono Stage from Trafomatic. (by soon, I mean by the holidays) We have a few Dava Field Coil Carts in house and some other interesting bits and pieces.

Thanks, Fred. I'll have to do that.

My Phono stage, which I haven't mentioned, is an Aesthetix Rhea Signature (on order) selected after extensive in-home listening (I've still got the loaner for now). I compared that with a Gold Note, Rogers and a VTL, as well as an inexpensive Cambridge Audio unit.

I definitely preferred the Rhea over the two SS units (both of which I own), even while it has some tube rush, and decided that while the VTL was similar, I liked the convenient multiple inputs and loading options on the Aesthetix and, conceptually, the all-tube amplification. (On top of that, I thought it weird that VTL doesn't put its User's Guides online...not sure why there's mystery there.) The Rogers sounded nice but I didn't like the UI and it was less flexible as well.

The only "downside" of the Rhea, to my mind, is the prominent Demag button on the front panel. Given you don't set the cartridge type directly (so it doesn't know "explicitly" that it's MC and MM), there's a warning in the User's Guide that you shouldn't press the Demag button with a MM cartridge selected...or it would be destroyed.

That seems like a crazy risky thing to have one click away. My thought was "why not disable that button when the loading is set to 470k" - since that would eliminate most (but obviously not all) of the potential problems...but, I guess they don't see it as a real-world problem. In my world, though, I can see someone goofing up.

 

[dnanian]

It is not an easy task, but one can learn by listening.

Exactly - and trying to isolate what you're listening to is what I've found so challenging. It seems semi-impossible.

But if you can hear the difference between well-constructed and adjusted DC and AC motors, there's obviously a way to start isolating conceptually subtle factors I haven't yet found. But I'm trying.

 

[dnanian]

imo right now where he is at there is too much information to distil.

He will also pick up overall system preferences in the process

The unfortunate thing with analog compares is experience with records comes later, not at the start.

There is a lot of information to attempt to distill & synthesize into an approach. That's why I was trying to figure out how to isolate factors - otherwise, there are so many variables changing I just don't know what I'm listening to.

What do you mean by "experience with records comes later, not at the start"? Do you mean by the effects of mastering, pressing, etc? Or something else I'm not quite getting...?

 

[dnanian]

Do you like the existing presentation and want more of it or are you missing something? If so what?

Fwiw - I personally would take the Galder because I have owned the Sindre and loved it but the Galder has more of everything. I love linear tracking arms and the inner nuance, space, and air that tends to come with them. It wouldn’t be my first choice if you were a rocker first and foremost. I would take the TechDas with a pivoted arm.

In fact, it may be that my dissatisfaction with the SS phono preamps was trying to move away from a more clinical sound. I don't have the common vocabulary to be able to get to it. Maybe it's the "fatiguing" thing people talk about...as in "sounded good but didn't want to listen all afternoon". Or maybe not. If only we could all plug into a common ear to have an identical frame of reference.

With regard to music - I listen to rock, folk, 'traditional' and jazz mostly, with more modernist 'classic' (or rather 'orchestral', I guess) works coming in after - your Reich/Glass/Richter. And there's no question that I listen to both performance and "recording" - that is, a beautifully engineered, produced, mixed and mastered recording goes a long way in supporting that performance.

I find it difficult to square the "trying to duplicate a live performance" circle with "rock" records vs. concerts. They're just so...different. It's easier with more intimate music where, for example, you're recording a performance at the Village Vanguard and you're trying to have a "you are there" experience. Or a Gillian Welch record (or David Rawlings, for that matter, or both) where you've got a much less "constructed" sound, as opposed to, say, an XTC record, a Wire album, or something by the Mars Volta or U2. (Although then you get to something like a D'Angelo record and we're back to a more "group in a room" approach, even when it may not be, so who knows.)

Anyway...I try to keep my ears open, and not get locked into what I was listening to when I was, say, 20.

 

[bonzo75]

There is a lot of information to attempt to distill & synthesize into an approach. That's why I was trying to figure out how to isolate factors - otherwise, there are so many variables changing I just don't know what I'm listening to.

What do you mean by "experience with records comes later, not at the start"? Do you mean by the effects of mastering, pressing, etc? Or something else I'm not quite getting...?

Yes that's correct. You should have good records that allow you to understand the differences quickly. For example, in a system if you listen to audiophile amplified things like Stockfish, the system could sound good and you wouldn't realize drawbacks until much later. Play Kogan, Oistrakh, Annie Fisher, Rubinstein, from Decca, EMI, etc, and you get what to reject much quicker. Sure, of what you have not rejected (of those who make it through), it might take time to sort the final one but then at that level, from the set of the good ones any that suits your budget and provides you good service where you are works.

Even if amplified music is your target, good rock recordings, for example, will show you bass much better than flat sounding represses.

Also, I don't know where you are at right now w.r.t. music, system, and what you look for, but as you audition systems and meet people, you will develop your learning on those dimensions and pick up things to look for. So you will surely upgrade more than just your analog, perhaps drastically. E.g. Peter started arguing with DDK about VTA, then analog, ended up moving out Magico and Pass to Corner horns and Lamm. Bill went to pick up a phono for his Focal/Analog domain system and ended up with a complete transformation to DIYing horns with very low watt amps.

 

[dnanian]

Even if amplified music is your target, good rock recordings, for example, will show you bass much better than flat sounding represses.

Also, I don't know where you are at right now w.r.t. music, system, and what you look for, but as you audition systems and meet people, you will develop your learning on those dimensions and pick up things to look for.

To be clear, I've been buying LPs since the 70s, and even then I was searching for good pressings of the albums I liked. (It seems to be a never ending process.) It was always frustrating to discover that so may imports, back in the day, were of better quality - both pressing and other aspects of manufacturing.

There's no question, to my mind, that a significant limiting factor is my primary listening space. There's only so much I can do in a sane way (it's a 70s-era openish plan house that's long but generally one "room" wide, with windows along all the outside walls). And it's not a dedicated "listening room" (which I don't really want - this is truly for enjoyment and not obsession...again, not to dismiss the enjoyment obsession provides for many).

The speakers are (and here I will no doubt cause many eye rolls and some gagging/giggling) B&O Beolab 90s. That also means there's no amp, and no preamp, that need be matched or changed...the speaker itself does all of that, including a plethora of inputs (and both single-ended and balanced analog). On top of that, the built-in room compensation, canceling and DSP features allow for decent performance even in a situation where the placement isn't good.

For headphone listening I have a Naim Uniti Atom HE with a set of Focal Clear Mgs.

But, anyway, because of that the variables here end up pretty simple - where things go from TT to Phono stage, and from that into the speaker (balanced) and the Uniti (single-ended) with two more outputs left over. (The Rhea is really flexible that way, which is very useful.)

So there you go...commence the slow shaking of heads.

 

[bonzo75]

I have a lot of respect for you if you have been focusing on pressings already, have stayed away from the big toys, and are sensibly proceeding to your next upgrade

 

[mtemur]

Where I disagree with this is he is coming from Rega, so his interpretation of what's tight and loose could be different from yours, especially given what recordings and music he uses. He might now hear some upgrade from Rega and think that's tight ( or that's loose). Instead he just needs to listen enough till he forms his own definition of what type of bass he likes (same with other parameters or as a whole).

I think just listening to differences helps. He will then form his own scale for fat, thin, slow, fast, PRAT, flow, nuance, laid back, too aggressive, etched, balanced, etc...imo right now where he is at there is too much information to distil.

He will also pick up overall system preferences in the process

The unfortunate thing with analog compares is experience with records comes later, not at the start.

You’re right.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi,

My personal opinion, and don’t mind to be slated for it, if you are going to put this new TT/cart/phono combination through the ADDA process mandated by your speakers, just stick with the Rega. The magic inherent in the best analogue front ends will get lost in the misery of ADDA conversion.

Best.

 

[dnanian]

Hi,

My personal opinion, and don’t mind to be slated for it, if you are going to put this new TT/cart/phono combination through the ADDA process mandated by your speakers, just stick with the Rega. The magic inherent in the best analogue front ends will get lost in the misery of ADDA conversion.

Best.

What's interesting is that the "magic" of the Preamp was not lost in those conversions.

Would it be more "magical" in an all-tube setup, with no ADDA at all? Perhaps! But there's no question that the Rhea all by itself made a large improvement for the better.

But, anyway, I expected to be "hit" for exactly this...I'm just not convinced that 24/192 of an exceptional signal is going to become "miserable" during that process. Of course, it could be...as I said, I'm not courting perfection I will never attain, and my room could never support.

That's also why I mentioned the headphone setup. That's a TT -> Phono Preamp -> Class A (for most of the volume range) -> Balanced Headphones path, and I can judge that sound vs. the speakers... sure, the Naim isn't tube, but it's pretty reasonable comparison in terms of what the ADDA might be "doing" to absolutely identical outputs (well, SE vs Balanced but you get the idea).

 

[Lagonda]

Hi,

My personal opinion, and don’t mind to be slated for it, if you are going to put this new TT/cart/phono combination through the ADDA process mandated by your speakers, just stick with the Rega. The magic inherent in the best analogue front ends will get lost in the misery of ADDA conversion.

Best.

And don't forget the built in ICE amplifiers.

 

[dnanian]

And don't forget the built in ICE amplifiers.

Indeed, they're Class D. But see above.

 

[Bergm@nn]

As someone who is going from Bergmann to AF3 plus Reed 5A I’m clearly invested in the AF route.

Your original question is a very relevant one in this part of the hobby. Analogue front ends are very difficult to audition and compare like for like so in the end there is an element of leap of faith to it

I was going to say pick whichever, they’re both great decks, and I know you’ll hate this, but I’m not convinced either is worth the investment given the rest of your system. I’m just not sure you’ll reap the rewards of the premium you could be committing.

If you’ve got cash to burn then pick the one you’re most drawn to and find out for yourself.

 

[Solypsa]

What's interesting is that the "magic" of the Preamp was not lost in those conversions.

Would it be more "magical" in an all-tube setup, with no ADDA at all? Perhaps! But there's no question that the Rhea all by itself made a large improvement for the better.

This is an interesting situation.

Of course you might have gone with a phono preamp that uses digital riaa and digital output as well

DSP and AD/DA steps are still controversial.

I agree that a large step into top tier analog does not make sense in the system context as you provided; but I think an upgrade from Rega is still a good idea. Just apply what @bonzo75 and others have said.

STST Motus DQ could be a 'half step' vs the TechDas and Bergmann, but I represent STST so take that idea with a grain of salt

 

[dnanian]

I was going to say pick whichever, they’re both great decks, and I know you’ll hate this, but I’m not convinced either is worth the investment given the rest of your system. I’m just not sure you’ll reap the rewards of the premium you could be committing.

No, I don't hate that. I respect that opinion. I fully recognize those speakers are controversial...it's why I didn't bring them up originally.

At the same time, @Kal Rubinson reviewed them some time ago and was quite pleased with them subjectively, and the objective measurements were also quite favorable. (I fully recognize that Kal's preferences tend towards digital sources.)

I have no desire to create a greenback bonfire. And this is why auditioning was something I was trying to do. If improving the source will do nothing commensurate with the expenditure, then it's something I won't bother doing. Which is, again, why it seems a difficulty task to tell when listening to someone else's system. They don't have the room and placement constraints I have to manage. And perhaps the rest of my setup would "destroy" any goodness, turning anything beyond a GE Wildcat source into hot garbage. (OK, my grammar-school era Wildcat has its own speakers, so perhaps that's a bad analogy.)

It's possible. Therein lies the problem.

 

[dnanian]

I agree that a large step into top tier analog does not make sense in the system context as you provided; but I think an upgrade from Rega is still a good idea. Just apply what @bonzo75 and others have said.

My initial thought (beyond "don't change anything") was actually the Magne and not the Galder... and perhaps the TechDAS V...although that with an arm is a large step.

But...the difference between the Beogram 4000 with a new cartridge and the Rega is not small. Perhaps I've reached "that's as good as you're going to get" with the Rega.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What's interesting is that the "magic" of the Preamp was not lost in those conversions.

Would it be more "magical" in an all-tube setup, with no ADDA at all? Perhaps! But there's no question that the Rhea all by itself made a large improvement for the better.

But, anyway, I expected to be "hit" for exactly this...I'm just not convinced that 24/192 of an exceptional signal is going to become "miserable" during that process. Of course, it could be...as I said, I'm not courting perfection I will never attain, and my room could never support.

That's also why I mentioned the headphone setup. That's a TT -> Phono Preamp -> Class A (for most of the volume range) -> Balanced Headphones path, and I can judge that sound vs. the speakers... sure, the Naim isn't tube, but it's pretty reasonable comparison in terms of what the ADDA might be "doing" to absolutely identical outputs (well, SE vs Balanced but you get the idea).

In order to answer the question - would it be more magical with no ADDA - yes in a well set up fully analogue system vs a digital dsp and class D solution. I wish it wasn’t the case because some of the horn systems I like are a million times easier to execute with dsp crossovers. Is what it is and I have tried extensively to make it not the case.

In terms of the headphone rig - unfortunately I am unable to answer you satisfactorily because I don’t enjoy the headphone experience much at all - only use it for watching YouTube music.

 

[djsina2]

I would have thought so as well. Strangely, though, the TechDAS AFIII at my local dealer has pretty extreme flutter for some reason, even though the belt tensioning setup has been done, and it does indicate it's "locked".

That's obviously not even remotely normal, but I'm at an honest loss to figure out -- with an air bearing, and careful speed regulation -- how it could even be possible. But it does clearly indicate that things can go wrong.

You can eliminate this potential issue with a table that doesn’t have a feedback mechanism. I had an AF5 and loved it. The CSPort TAT2M2 I have now is a very clear step up from that. No feedback, no vacuum. I think one person on this forum preferred the TAT2M2 to the AF3P, and it’s much cheaper if you shop smart.

 

[dnanian]

In order to answer the question - would it be more magical with no ADDA - yes in a well set up fully analogue system vs a digital dsp and class D solution. I wish it wasn’t the case because some of the horn systems I like are a million times easier to execute with dsp crossovers. Is what it is and I have tried extensively to make it not the case.

Understood. So you'd basically put this in a "lost cause" bucket - given the end-state ADDA/Class D/DSP setup, any other chances before that state are effectively pointless beyond a basic level of competence.

In terms of the headphone rig - unfortunately I am unable to answer you satisfactorily because I don’t enjoy the headphone experience much at all - only use it for watching YouTube music.

My point there is that it eliminates all the other factors...not that I prefer headphone listening...and ends up being a much more "straightforward" Class A setup. Solid state, however. But analog.