Natural Sound

[Mike Lavigne]

You're doing it again Elliot! If you're going to make everything personal and call me names you should do it in your own threads so I can properly address you and have your thread shut down by mods.

david

you are clearly diminishing HP, David.

i realize you need to energize your tribe by having a target, but associates of HP take it personal. do you need to attack him to make your point?

 

[bonzo75]

I did offer some thoughts here, with most posts concentrated on the first thread page:

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Ande on page 3 I very much agreed with you!

You know you can link your posts directly instead of the whole thread right? You are a digital era guy

 

[Al M.]

You know you can link your posts directly instead of the whole thread right? You are a digital era guy

There's no point in that. As I said, most of my relevant posts are concentrated on the first page, which I linked to. Why should I make it unnecessarily complicated and give a separate link to each one of them?

And yes, my first post is #3. I guess that little effort of scrolling down is not too much to ask. Also, it would be good to read from the beginning, with Ron's opening post.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You know you can link your posts directly instead of the whole thread right? You are a digital era guy

click on the post # in the top right hand corner, then the header will link the post and not the whole thread.

 

[Elliot G.]

You're doing it again Elliot! If you're going to make everything personal and call me names you should do it in your own threads so I can properly address you and have your thread shut down by mods.

You fail to mention all the names that he purposely/maliciously ignored or destroyed! Nor do you want to acknowledge the false information he peppered in his reviews and outright recommendations!

david

what names? you are a hater of HP you stated that and your are into revisionist history. Harry isnt here to defend himself so I will.
you want to pick on someone and make yourself look good so be it but I don't have to buy the nonsense your trying to sell.

 

[ddk]

I do not see "such clear path and a long time understood sonic aesthetic for decades". The point is that you only pick a few pieces of gear from these manufacturers according to your preference, not the general brand sonics. Your best and more clear posts on the subject referred to Vladimir Lamm influence on your views, as well as your introduction in WBF. For most of us it will be closest we can go in your references. The reality is that most people around the "Natural Sound" umbrella in WBF own Lamm.

I can only go by my own values/preferences otherwise I'll be disingenuous even when it's commercially disastrous. Even such involved conversations and altercations has a negative commercial influence but that's secondary sticking with my principles and love of this hobby is what's important to me. This is WBF and the best of anything is very limited and uncommon so no real list is going to be long. Lamm is a top brand and probably why it gets attention when mentioned but I talk to many people with modest budgets about gear that won't get any mileage here.

Do you have a reference on a good accessible article on the path you describe?

I think my previous post from Paul Klipsch is pretty clear and informative, even the article on "Open Windows" @PeterA posted alludes to it. I haven't been searching for the meaning of natural sound so I can't think of other references right now.

We fully agree on this sentence.



No suggestions. Preferences can't be summarized in a short word. But people just looking at your list would think "particular vintage" as more meaningful.

I don't meander philosophically about this subject as a producer of goods I delve in the real and tangible, one word is more than I need. I mention particular gear vintage or modern because the best is always limited and this is WBF.

david

 

[ddk]

you are clearly diminishing HP, David.

i realize you need to energize your tribe by having a target, but associates of HP take it personal. do you need to attack him to make your point?

I'm communicating what I think of an influential person's published musings and my disagreement with his approach, do you agree with and respect everything you read Mike?

what names? you are a hater of HP you stated that and your are into revisionist history. Harry isnt here to defend himself so I will.
you want to pick on someone and make yourself look good so be it but I don't have to buy the nonsense your trying to sell.

You can be HP's apologist as much as you want but it's personal between us when you start calling me hater in this thread and other names in other threads. HP and his publications are part of the public domain people criticize the Bible and Prophets he's beyond reproach because you worked for him?

david

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm communicating what I think of an influential person's published musings and my disagreement with his approach, do you agree with and respect everything you read Mike?


You can be HP's apologist as much as you want but it's personal between us when you start calling me hater in this thread and other names in other threads. HP and his publications are part of the public domain people criticize the Bible and Prophets he's beyond reproach because you worked for him?

david

Let it be personal David I truly don't care.I don't know you and don't care too ever know you with your attitude. I have been in this Industry 50 years and never heard of you. You like to be inflamatory and then call yourself a victum. Poor David HP didn't like you boo hoo.

 

[morricab]

My list of boxes isn’t going to enlighten when so many accomplished innovators and creators failed to do so, it’s moot in this context. I never said that only Lamm gear sound natural but there are different levels of naturalness IME Lamm’s the most natural sounding of all. Of course in the context of a properly setup system, a single audiophile power cord and anything natural will be gone!

I've heard natural from CDs, it's a different type of sound than analog but that's not what defines natural majority of analog systems can and are very unnatural.

That's fine Brad we can disagree about him. His writings were mostly in context of systems that didn't deliver what he aspired to or claimed to value. There was also a lot of advice on what to buy, that's my problem with him. Philosophically judging sound with live acoustic music as a reference wasn't an original thought by him.

david

You have same prescriptive behavior you accuse HP of…LAMM, Micro Seiki (or your own AS2000), Vintage Bionor(or Eurodyn), some JBLs and or the odd Vitavox…and that’s about it! Now, I tend to agree with you in principle that most gear out there is not natural sounding…but it’s not that exclusive. There are some other SETs, a few OTLs and an odd push/pull tube or hybrid amp out there that can sound natural…There are some modern speakers that can do likewise …and even some digital.

What I don’t agree on at all is the bstandard power cords and cables…I was a non-believer in premium cables for the longest time but I can clearly hear the across the board improvements from some brands/models out there as well as power management. You have find cables that retrieve what the generic ones don’t without exaggeration…this means rejecting many of them as you have rightly done. But losing information to “preserve” natural is also a compromise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm communicating what I think of an influential person's published musings and my disagreement with his approach, do you agree with and respect everything you read Mike?

no worries, just expect the predictable feedback when you go there, and don't be surprised. throwing haymakers comes with the 'back at ya' part.

when i do get negative and hit 'post' before deleting, i mostly regret it. which does not mean i don't have feelings too.

we have choices about what to say and how to say it.

 

[ddk]

Let it be personal David I truly don't care.I don't know you and don't care too ever know you with your attitude. I have been in this Industry 50 years and never heard of you. You like to be inflamatory and then call yourself a victum. Poor David HP didn't like you boo hoo.

LOL! Why don't you take this personal crap to your own threads and I'll indulge you.

david

 

[PeterA]

Curiously I offered an alternative a few post before. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/post-809182.

Suggesting the phrase Natural Sound in caps be trademarked is not an alternative approach or different words. This is not a serious response.

 

[Rensselaer]

I was responding to your flippant response to Al's remarks about how he listens to music. (posts 2839, 2841 and 2843). It's a subject I find interesting, unlike tired and sad analog/digital debates which have nothing to do with what he was saying. Try reading those posts again without having a knee-jerk reaction. You might also read one of Aaron Copeland's books on listening to music where he goes into great detail about music listening is both an analytical and emotional process and experience.

Was my observation that your systems appear to be digital and PeterA’s Analogue incorrect?Your appeal to ridicule is a fallacy of logic for it neither proves your point nor disproves mine.

As for reading Copland, I defer to your greater knowledge on his writings and accept he did say that music listening is both an analytical and emotional process/experience, but maintain that one can not get the gestalt of Natural Sound while analysing aspects of it and comparing those aspects with memories of listenings past.

That is not saying that such shouldn’t ever be undertaken, just not when first exposed to it, then I believe, one should shut off the concentration and just open the mind and experience the whole.

 

[PeterA]

I did offer some thoughts here, with most posts concentrated on the first thread page:

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Ande on page 3 I very much agreed with you!

Excellent. I had forgotten about that thread. Perhaps I will reread it. I found my first post in it and it seems my thoughts on the subject have not really changed in the seven years since. I wrote that I had not at that time heard many systems that I would describe as natural sounding. That remains the case now, though I have gained a better understanding of how to achieve it since I began the experiments on my Sublime Sound system. Thank you for sharing that link.

 

[microstrip]

Suggesting the phrase Natural Sound in caps be trademarked is not an alternative approach or different words. This is not a serious response.

Unfortunately at this point your suggestion becomes a serious answer. I assume that it was only by ignorance that you used the words "Natural Sound" as the tittle of your system thread - anyone knowing that the words have been used with a very different and much more embracing meaning in audio writings along decades would avoid spreading confusion in his own system thread.

 

[ddk]

You have same prescriptive behavior you accuse HP of…LAMM, Micro Seiki (or your own AS2000), Vintage Bionor(or Eurodyn), some JBLs and or the odd Vitavox…and that’s about it! Now, I tend to agree with you in principle that most gear out there is not natural sounding…but it’s not that exclusive. There are some other SETs, a few OTLs and an odd push/pull tube or hybrid amp out there that can sound natural…There are some modern speakers that can do likewise …and even some digital.

Never said that there aren't other good brands Brad. I'm not a supposed impartial author, reviewer and authority with a publication trying to influence an entire community and industry. I'm an audiophile and a dealer with a very narrow underrepresented niche which some are interested in, I already have more than an expansive list in this niche show me someone else with more. Do you really care for or need another voice representing and talking about the status quo?

What I don’t agree on at all is the bstandard power cords and cables…I was a non-believer in premium cables for the longest time but I can clearly hear the across the board improvements from some brands/models out there as well as power management. You have find cables that retrieve what the generic ones don’t without exaggeration…this means rejecting many of them as you have rightly done. But losing information to “preserve” natural is also a compromise.

I don't want to lose information either, I'm rejecting what I find unnatural sounding and extension losing resolution. The fact that I even suggest very commercial brands means that I do believe cables make a difference but I do it in my own limited niche way with products that don't get noticed in high end groups.

david

 

[PeterA]

you are clearly diminishing HP, David.

i realize you need to energize your tribe by having a target, but associates of HP take it personal. do you need to attack him to make your point?

"...your tribe...? Wow. I do not see anyone "needing" to be energized, but you and Elliot are suddenly and surprisingly joining the conversation. I would have never expected such a very strange comment coming from you, Mike. I am sorry to have read that on my thread.

EDIT: By the way Mike, the "target" is having the experience of listening to live music in the home. It always has been for me, I just did not have a very clear idea of how to achieve it.

 

[microstrip]

I did offer some thoughts here, with most posts concentrated on the first thread page:

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Ande on page 3 I very much agreed with you!

Excellent find AL. M,

Please note that the tittle is "Natural" Sound , Ron as usually being a careful writer. We were discussing natural in general according to our own views, not a particular preference. The apostrophes were wisely used.

 

[ddk]

no worries, just expect the predictable feedback when you go there, and don't be surprised. throwing haymakers comes with the 'back at ya' part.

when i do get negative and hit 'post' before deleting, i mostly regret it. which does not mean i don't have feelings too.

we have choices about what to say and how to say it.

I'm not you Mike nor do I represent any tribe, please read your own sermons about every new piece you acquire for your flock ! Did I ever say anything to you about it or how you should write?

david

 

[PeterA]

Unfortunately at this point your suggestion becomes a serious answer. I assume that it was only by ignorance that you used the words "Natural Sound" as the tittle of your system thread - anyone knowing that the words have been used with a very different and much more embracing meaning in audio writings along decades would avoid spreading confusion in own system thread.

No, not at all out of ignorance. I pondered the title for a long time, as I did that of my other system thread. The title here was very deliberate. I discussed it first with some others, and here we are.

My Utah visit thread is "David Karmelis Natural Sound in Utah. Capitalized. My new system is basically right out of his listening room. What I heard in Utah and found to sound natural, I hear now in my own listening room. I might have called it PeterA's Natural Sound in Boston, but I wanted a catchier book end to "Sublime Sound" which would describe my evolving thoughts on audio and system sound. Sublime sound to natural sound because it is one step or four closer to what I hear from live music. It never occured to me to use "My SET and Corner Horn System", for instance.

No, Fransisco, the title to this thread was very clear and deliberate for me, and I have no regrets.