Munich show 2023 Hifideluxe and MOC .

[microstrip]

This is what I was referring to - customers like who think to get 5 helpings of vegetables a day, they must pay a premium for potato chips, tomato ketchup, bloody mary, Pizza (in order to circumvent the rule of having vegetables served in schools, the US pizza industry wanted to classify pizza as a vegetable) . Instead of taking pain to actually try some decent food or do some research on nutrition.

Sorry, IMO analogies only move the subject to obscure areas or lines of thought that are not related to the high-end.

The classical Rolex and wine ones are misleading enough - I think we do not need pizza or KCF ...

 

[Bobvin]

KFC? WTF WBF?

i admit I have an occasional bucket o chicken — can I still be in the club?

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

Peter, everyone is the same

How is this true when there are such divergent camps at a place like WBF, and the show reactions to specific rooms vary so much?

[please forgive my poor English]

-- DIGRESSION --

I note that music-lovers attending live, unamplified concerts may have some kind of convergence of views regarding music reproduction (pics and experience report hereafter).

​

---

I think indeed that these kind of experiences, made in these kind of very special places (pics hereafter) can fine-tune the ear-brain in a way that sets up our "aural compas". It acts as a kind of "reference to the real thing" (that people may have lost, as PA systems are everywhere now, as Roger Skoff argues in The Music Problem, Stereophile, Sep 2022):

- Historical concert hall (Brussels). Very good acoustics, slightly warm and "comfortable". Tickets startig at €12. I heard for €17 the great Dutch violonist Janine Jansen, who plays with the Stradivarius that belonged to Nathan Miltein; I sat in a premium seat.

- Bruges Concertgebouw. Contemporary concert hall. Very good acoustics, detailed, with a touch of warmth (sides to be avoided though, less detailed). Covered with Schröder diffusers. I know a WBF member who used to sing in a choir, who even sang once in that concert hall (as I am not sure he would allow me to "reveal" this, I will not disclose his name). He is yet another horn-lover, BTW.

- I vigourously prompted that WBF member to come in the lovely city of Namur which inaugurated its new concert hall 2 years ago, already considered by specialists as one of the best of Europe. Designed by a star acoustic bureau, Kahle Acoustics (which collaborated to the Philharmonie de Paris €534M project). The works of Kahle Acoustics with diffusors even inspired that WBF member very much for the complete redesign of his listening room. We attended the concert one month ago. He came with one of his friends, I came with 2 other friends. He was amazed by the acoustics here too. Namur Concert Hall, breathtaking acoustics. Recording label already come there to make recordings.
Namur Concert Hall

This one sounds a little bit more "analytical", in the best sense, while avoiding to sound dry or cold, thanks to the new wooden floor. The number of cubic meters/listener is the highest ratio in the world (13m3), and equals that of the Philharmonie de Paris, therefore a very different rendition than a "historical", warmer concert hall, which sounds "comfortable".
It can also be a lot of fun to be able to listen afterwards to the live recording made the day of the concert you attended (here Haendel's Solomon, recorded in the Namur Concert Hall above, released a few months later, and BBC Record Of The Month - Dir. Leonardo Garcia Alarcon, Ricercar)

- and at 35 min by train, there is also this very good one, in Antwerpen:

So,
is it really a coincidence that we all like some horn speakers so much? (I mean: @bonzo75 , @PeterA , @tima*, that aforementioned WBF member, myself now, as well as probably many other members that I don't know).

(* I think tima does likes some horns too, but I'm not 100% TBH)​

I think the exposure to live, unamplified music, plays a significant role here, as a kind of "stable reference", even if there are various concert halls, acoustics, violins, etc.


And regarding your comment, @jbrrp1, I thought exactly the same...

I have yet to hear a horn speaker that appeals to me at all (sorry, Ked), as I cannot unhear the "cupped hands" going on

...until I heard the Aries Cerat Symphonia ! (when you have time, do yourself a favour: read this)


Sure, my tiny country here makes it easy to jump in a train and get access to those jewels in nearby cities (max 60Km away). Plus, there are 3 excellent concert halls in town. (By contrast, with huge distances in the US for instance, it is ways more difficult, American members of another forum frequently say that I am lucky). That's why I regularly try to motivate friends to go out attending live concert (mainly classical), instead of watching series in the sofa: in our country, they have no excuse, everything is so near.
So geographical constraints (tiny distances), tickets affordability (peanuts here) and curiosity (I discovered classical music by myself) all matter. I am aware though that mitigating the two first constraints is impossible for the listener.

---

-Appendice-
Convergence?

It shouldn't necessarily be seen as a convergent sequence (like in maths), which converges towards one value. But rather to a de Cauchy sequence, which converges in a specific way: into a range (and, kind of, "drifts" inside the boundaries of that range). And that range could be seen, metaphorically, as a space for consensus, for a certain diversity of "good products" (otherwise, all good systems would sound the same), or "opinions" over those products. A space, or range, into which extremely good horns (the ones that do not shout, please) could slip into, alongside with "the best" cones, and "the best" ribbons, etc.​

But "what are "the best in their kind then?", you could argue. Imho, this is far more easy to sort out: my feeling is that there is, more or less, a kind of invisible hierarchy into each kind of loudspeakers:​

- ribbons? Magnepans vs Analysis -> I take the Analysis (I owned Magnepans too, love them).​

- ribbons (bis)? Analysis vs Alsyvox -> I take the Alsyvox (though much more expensive).​

- ribbons (ter)? Some implementation vs Raal ribbon tweeter -> I take the Raal​

- beryllium tweeters? Focal vs TAD -> I take the TADs​

- full-range drivers and speakers? Lowther vs Cube Audio Nenuphar -> I take the Nenuphar (that Peter Breuninger considered as a potential base for a stellar system).​

- cones? BBC monitors? Graham vs Harbeth -> I take the Harbeths​

- cones (bis)? my Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary (2nd system) vs Stenheim Alumine Two -> I take the Stenheims (budget and setup required are very different though).​

​

Even amongst various genres and technologies, is it really a coincidence that, at the edge of the high-end, a ribbon panels for instance like the Alsyvox, one of its kind, reminds me a little bit of horns (Aries Cerat Symhonia, to be explicit) thanks to, amongst all, its amazing expressivity ? (92dB sensitivity, 22Hz - short feedback over the Alsyvox, that I could once listened to very attentively - see §7).
Some may roll their eyes. But I contend there may be more in common between a pair of Symphonias horns and Alsyvox ribbon panels, though they use quite different techniques, than say, between TAD or YG cones, and B&W 800s for instance.

Enough "philosophy", back to the topic ;-)

-- END OF DIGRESSION --

 

[bonzo75]

I have yet to hear a horn speaker that appeals to me at all (sorry, Ked), as I cannot unhear the "cupped hands" going on.

There is nothing to be sorry about. There are many bad horn speakers. There are very few good horn speakers. Those are exceptional. If you have not heard a good horn speaker and are still hearing cupped hands, that only means less exposure to horn speakers. Each horn speaker is different. Much more different from each other than say, Wilson and Magico are from each other. When we say "horn speakers" we are referring to very few good ones. I like Duos less than Wilson or Magico myself.

 

[bonzo75]

i admit I have an occasional bucket o chicken — can I still be in the club?

I thought you moved away from the Wilsons you had.

 

[Elliot G.]

At the HiFi Deluxe venue there was an outstanding sounding speaker: the Marco Serri Design "Gladiator" speaker (ugh, to the name!). Huge, imposing, distinct looking (and ugly, to me) speaker of high efficiency and high impedance that sang full range and evenly. I heard almost nothing to quibble with on this new entrant! They were driven by a complete chain of electronics and cabling by the same company. SET amps. Truly lovely sound, and very impressive. Pretty f'ing expensive (I believe they said MSRP of 285k EUR). One to watch, though. ~750 lbs. and 7 feet high.

I think that it’s not hearing it’s listening I am commenting about. What people’s listening skills and experience are varied wildly.
As i said there were some very good presentations out there but the Big Blue speaker by Marco Sherri to
me it was impossible to get but the obvious serious colorations in those rooms at the Marriot.
For me this was almost every room at HF Deluxe and to
me almost unlistenable. I won’t make any comment on the speakers could not tell.
At MOC there were good rooms and many manufacturers are on the same room every year and are able to start set up on Sunday and Monday before the show opens. This is a huge advantage that isn’t available at any of the US shows were we get 1 day at most.

I did visit just about every room multiple times in 4.1 and 4.2 e and f areas
However when i read this there’s a huge diversity of what people call good so much so it’s mind altering to me.

 

[bonzo75]

[please forgive my poor English]

-- DIGRESSION --

I note that music-lovers attending live, unamplified concerts may have some kind of convergence of views regarding music reproduction (pics and experience report hereafter).

I think we are also in sync with the Gods of amplified concerts

 

[marty]

I think we are also in sync with the Gods of amplified concerts

View attachment 110472View attachment 110475

Sorry Ked, but the God of amplified concerts was the Wall of Sound by the Grateful Dead which was used for about 10 years (mid 70's to mid 80's). Below is the set up in '84 from the Hollywood Bowl. There are too many articles on this legendary acoustic monster to cite but even Phil Lesh, who still tours, thinks nothing like it was ever created then nor will not be created again.

Oswald Stanley (their main sound engineer and LSD manufacturer extraordinaire), Dan Healy
(chief roadie) and Mark Raizene of the Grateful Dead's sound crew, in collaboration with Ron Wickersham, Rick Turner and John Curl of Alembic designed the sound reinforcement in an effort to deliver high-quality sound to attendees of Grateful Dead concerts, which were drawing crowds of 100,000 or more at the time. The Wall of Sound combined six independent sound systems using eleven separate channels. Vocals, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and piano each had their own channel and set of speakers. Phil Lesh's bass was piped through a quadrophonic encoder that sent signals from each of the four strings to a separate channel and set of speakers for each string. Another channel amplified the bass drum, and two more channels carried the snares, tom-toms, and cymbals. Because each speaker carried just one instrument or vocalist, the sound was exceptionally clear and free of intermodiulation distortion. Many have said it was the best sounding PA system ever assembled.

Several setups have been reported for The Wall of Sound:

1. 604 total speakers, powered by 89 300-watt solid state and three 350-watt vacuum tube amplifiers generating a total of 26,400 watts of power
2. 586 JBL speakers and 54 Electro Voice tweeters, powered by 48 600-watt McIntosh amplifiers generating a total of 28,800 watts of continuous (RMS) power).

This system projected high-quality playback at six hundred feet (180 m) with an acceptable sound projected for one-quarter mile (400 m), at which point wind interference degraded it. Although it was not called a line array at the time, the Wall of Sound was the first large-scale line array used in modern sound reinforcement systems.The Wall of Sound was perhaps the second-largest non-permanent sound system ever built. It can be seen in action in The Grateful Dead Movie, a documentation of the series of shows played October 16–20, 1974 at the Winterland Ballroom.

As the saying goes for many Dead concerts, if you remember it, you weren't there.

 

[PeterA]

Sorry, IMO analogies only move the subject to obscure areas or lines of thought that are not related to the high-end.

The classical Rolex and wine ones are misleading enough - I think we do not need pizza or KCF ...

If you advocate for clarity, you should explain your comment about people buying gear recommended by a few gurus? Kedar’s response was excellent and you remain vague.

 

[tima]

There is a lot of noise from armchair debaters.

... and heel nippers who can click a button but not debate.

 

[tima]

the Wall of Sound

Sorry Marty, deadheads can call it what they want.

The Wall of Sound was Phil Spector ... "a Wagnerian approach to rock".

 

[Audio_Karma]

More info on the cheaper version of these IO Design NAKED Loudspeakers

https://www.iosoundesign.com

Maybe now we will get some Dealers here in the USA soon....

 

[tima]

So,
is it really a coincidence that we all like some horn speakers so much? (I mean: @bonzo75 , @PeterA , @tima*, that aforementioned WBF member, and myself now).
(* I think tima does likes some horns too, but I'm not 100% TBH)

Click the 'System' link in my signature.

I truly enjoyed the horn speakers I heard at David Karmelli's in Utah: the Bionars, TAD 2401s, the JBL M9500s and a rare pair of smaller RCA horn speakers whose model I do not know. I enjoy the videos of @PeterA 's Vitavox and @Tango 's Eurodyn. So yes, tima likes some horns. All of these systems have one thing in common.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Sorry Ked, but the God of amplified concerts was the Wall of Sound by the Grateful Dead which was used for about 10 years (mid 70's to mid 80's). Below is the set up in '84 from the Hollywood Bowl. There are too many articles on this legendary acoustic monster to cite but even Phil Lesh, who still tours, thinks nothing like it was ever created then nor will not be created again.

Oswald Stanley (their main sound engineer and LSD manufacturer extraordinaire), Dan Healy
(chief roadie) and Mark Raizene of the Grateful Dead's sound crew, in collaboration with Ron Wickersham, Rick Turner and John Curl of Alembic designed the sound reinforcement in an effort to deliver high-quality sound to attendees of Grateful Dead concerts, which were drawing crowds of 100,000 or more at the time. The Wall of Sound combined six independent sound systems using eleven separate channels. Vocals, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and piano each had their own channel and set of speakers. Phil Lesh's bass was piped through a quadrophonic encoder that sent signals from each of the four strings to a separate channel and set of speakers for each string. Another channel amplified the bass drum, and two more channels carried the snares, tom-toms, and cymbals. Because each speaker carried just one instrument or vocalist, the sound was exceptionally clear and free of intermodiulation distortion. Many have said it was the best sounding PA system ever assembled.

Several setups have been reported for The Wall of Sound:

1. 604 total speakers, powered by 89 300-watt solid state and three 350-watt vacuum tube amplifiers generating a total of 26,400 watts of power
2. 586 JBL speakers and 54 Electro Voice tweeters, powered by 48 600-watt McIntosh amplifiers generating a total of 28,800 watts of continuous (RMS) power).

This system projected high-quality playback at six hundred feet (180 m) with an acceptable sound projected for one-quarter mile (400 m), at which point wind interference degraded it. Although it was not called a line array at the time, the Wall of Sound was the first large-scale line array used in modern sound reinforcement systems.The Wall of Sound was perhaps the second-largest non-permanent sound system ever built. It can be seen in action in The Grateful Dead Movie, a documentation of the series of shows played October 16–20, 1974 at the Winterland Ballroom.

As the saying goes for many Dead concerts, if you remember it, you weren't there.

View attachment 110482

The amps are mcintosh mc 2300

 

[andromedaaudio]

If i would buy a practical system based of of munich it would be Rockport orion or Brodmann Ls
Viola labs Bravo 2 amps and wadax and for the pennypinchers a metronome dac.

Brings us to 130 K for the speakers.
25 k second hand for the amps.
Viola labs Sonata pre amp.
20 K for the dac .

And if with tubes it would be with VAC

175 K plus the price for the pre amp and that would be a topnotch system and the way i like it .
Controlled spacious sound

You can keep your horns.

 

[Whbgarrett]

Sorry Ked, but the God of amplified concerts was the Wall of Sound by the Grateful Dead which was used for about 10 years (mid 70's to mid 80's). Below is the set up in '84 from the Hollywood Bowl. There are too many articles on this legendary acoustic monster to cite but even Phil Lesh, who still tours, thinks nothing like it was ever created then nor will not be created again.

Oswald Stanley (their main sound engineer and LSD manufacturer extraordinaire), Dan Healy
(chief roadie) and Mark Raizene of the Grateful Dead's sound crew, in collaboration with Ron Wickersham, Rick Turner and John Curl of Alembic designed the sound reinforcement in an effort to deliver high-quality sound to attendees of Grateful Dead concerts, which were drawing crowds of 100,000 or more at the time. The Wall of Sound combined six independent sound systems using eleven separate channels. Vocals, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and piano each had their own channel and set of speakers. Phil Lesh's bass was piped through a quadrophonic encoder that sent signals from each of the four strings to a separate channel and set of speakers for each string. Another channel amplified the bass drum, and two more channels carried the snares, tom-toms, and cymbals. Because each speaker carried just one instrument or vocalist, the sound was exceptionally clear and free of intermodiulation distortion. Many have said it was the best sounding PA system ever assembled.

Several setups have been reported for The Wall of Sound:

1. 604 total speakers, powered by 89 300-watt solid state and three 350-watt vacuum tube amplifiers generating a total of 26,400 watts of power
2. 586 JBL speakers and 54 Electro Voice tweeters, powered by 48 600-watt McIntosh amplifiers generating a total of 28,800 watts of continuous (RMS) power).

This system projected high-quality playback at six hundred feet (180 m) with an acceptable sound projected for one-quarter mile (400 m), at which point wind interference degraded it. Although it was not called a line array at the time, the Wall of Sound was the first large-scale line array used in modern sound reinforcement systems.The Wall of Sound was perhaps the second-largest non-permanent sound system ever built. It can be seen in action in The Grateful Dead Movie, a documentation of the series of shows played October 16–20, 1974 at the Winterland Ballroom.

As the saying goes for many Dead concerts, if you remember it, you weren't there.

View attachment 110482

The Wall of Sound was indeed awesome. But it was also awesomely expensive to maintain, transport, set up and breakdown. So much so, that it was actually only used for live concerts until October of 1974, after which it was retired.

 

[Rexp]

If i would buy a practical system based of of munich it would be Rockport orion.
Viola labs Bravo 2 amps and wadax and for the pennypinchers a metronome dac.

Brings us to 130 K for the speakers.
25 k second hand for the amps.
Viola labs Sonata pre amp.
20 K for the dac .

And if with tubes it would be with VAC

175 K plus the price for the pre amp and that would be a topnotch system and the way i like it .
Controlled spacious sound

You can keep your horns.

How about combining MBL electronics with the Rockports?

 

[marty]

Sorry Marty, deadheads can call it what they want.

The Wall of Sound was Phil Spector ... "a Wagnerian approach to rock".

That was a very different Wall of Sound. Not the Dead's PA system at all but a music production method Spector used for recording he began using in the 60's. According to Spector, the technique was based on "stuffing as much stuff into the mix" as he possibly could"!

 

[Willgolf]

A few videos:

What was your favorite of the videos you provided?

 

[marty]

The Wall of Sound was indeed awesome. But it was also awesomely expensive to maintain, transport, set up and breakdown. So much so, that it was actually only used for live concerts until October of 1974, after which it was retired.

Correct, but it was resurrected in 1976 and used in modified form (some would say it "evolved") for another 10 years as shown in the Hollywood '84 photo. It was however reduced significantly size significantly due to new efficiencies in amp and speaker technology. That said, modern systems today are every bit its equal as it should be 40 years later. Although the Wall of Sound could reproduce music heard clearly 1/4 mile away, I attended some live shows at Bethel Woods last summer that I swear could be hear miles away (i.e. Earth Wind and Fire clocking in at 107dB, post #747, https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/recent-concerts-youve-enjoyed.3840/page-38#post-821180). You know its loud when you need 2 pair of ear plugs!