Munich show 2023 Hifideluxe and MOC .
- Thread starter andromedaaudio
- Start date
A visit to David's brings the opportunity to hear what I gauge as the best stereo system I've heard. And I have no problem call it that. Apart from the Bionors I don't know what speakers he has out in his two rooms, possibly the TAD 2401s but your visitor friend will get to hear them with top Lamm electronics, the AS2000 turntable and if he is lucky a Neumann cartridge. And see an extensive collection of turntables and cartridges. All accompanied by wonderful hospitality and gorgeous Utah scenary.
That is a bunch of hooey. If any converting is done, it's the horns that do it.
Yes, Aries Cerat was also for me one of the best sound of the show!
Thank you Tima
My friend has called David and they will meet each other soon. I told my friend he will see a piece of paradise in Utah.
I really Like David and his knowledge
My friend has called David and they will meet each other soon. I told my friend he will see a piece of paradise in Utah.
I really Like David and his knowledge
[please forgive my poor English]
Conversion: No, no, really not
I even don't know if I should consider myself as a "horn guy" (though I was stunned by what some horns do). But I think what's important in Morricab's point is that electronic music - that I LIKE TOO! - has no dynamic. Same for pop, and, sadly, today's rock (a infamous album of the Red Hot Chili Pepper has only 3dB of dynamics).Electronic music has tempo/rythm. But there is neither dynamic, nor timbres in it.
Regarding electro, I like very much Luke Abott's compositions, made of repeated loops. On a quiter side, Nils Frahm (who also plays with acoustic instruments, amongst all the biggest piano in the world, a Klavins M370). To some extent, one could be said that DJ Tiesto has no "real sound" by itself (unless he started to use acoustic instruments).
For tempo, and energy, electro can be great (Bach too, btw, and I hear that some DJ listen to Bach more and more, not kidding).
But electro, pop and rock are not the kind of music that I would "use" to assess gear (well, admittedly, a little bit of rock (Radiohead), electro, and jazz). To be able to enjoy/assess an audio system, I need a more direct connection to "the real thing", I mean the way "real" instruments sounds in the "real" life, that is: various concert halls, preferably very good ones. I admit that I can easily access live unamplified concerts (I attended 35 concerts this season; also unamplified jazz ones in a small club). But beyond the touchy subject of "curiosity", I am aware that not everyone can access concert halls as easily as they wish, especially when an audiophile lives in a huge coutry like the US or Canada, or even in the countryside in France: to reach a concert hall can require a real journey then! (therefore the geographical contraint was the 1st one that I mentioned here - American members did already mentioned this to me privately, so I know it can be a real issue).
PS: Aries Cerat may have been unlucky this year. It is possible. But I can assure you that, once heard in good conditions, they succeeded in "converting" me in a flash, though I HATED horns! (shouty, fatiguing, etc). They simply thwart all my prejudices against horns (I am not talking about the semi-active Aurora model that you heard). In the meantime, other members here kindly shared with me their views over some other horns that I could maybe like too. I thank them all for that.
PS2: I am perfectly aware that your comments relate to the final sonic outcome that you heard, into a specific room. I believe you when you said the Wilson demos were desappointing. I am not especially a Wilson guy, but at the Brussel New Music HighEnd Innovation show 2022, I was struck how different from each other two Wilson rooms sounded. One, partnered with D'Agostino. The second, with Nagra (I know you didn't like either). I reported those huge defferences, which demonstrates that it seems possible to make them play in one way or another, to a certain extent of course.
PS3: give Luke Abott's White Box Stereo a try ;-)
Last edited:
If I was digital, I would do horns (trios, anima, altec types) or planars/stats (apogees, martin logans), where the latter are driven with SS amps. Some good cones I heard work too.
If I was more analog, then when I did not know about recordings, or when I got to know quality reissues, both were fine too, with more tilt towards horns.
The more I get into original recordings, the more I am for only SETs horns, with compromise non-horn solutions being SETs devores or SETs audionec evo 2 (which is transparent like an electrostat and great for medium sized rooms). That is because this is where recordings and performances show, and you feel you are moving from concert to another as you change the LP. You are transcending that part where now you are enjoying the music, entire LP, without focusing on hifi, and yet you are enjoying every part of the hifi hobby because when you change a component, it is so much more transparent too. For me with this strategy, signal path gets simpler, and this leads to lower cost as well, because you need less sh*t. In an ideal world you would need 1 LP and a simple wire to a crossoverless speaker, and that would have no component cost – but while ideal does not exist, my ideal is more to this side than to a complex crossover with DSP and lots of complex amps putting imparting their own colour. I also find with set ups like this, the impact of realism comes from recordings. The rest of the stuff is more about synergy with the speaker and synergy is more about discovery costs rather than component costs.
That is about type of playback and recordings. As far as music genre goes, if someone wanted amplified like rock, I would not go horns except for dual front loaded horns, which then trump all other type of speakers for rock as well. Sensitive speakers with closed baffle one woofer (like Altec 604, for example, or Tannoys) are quite enjoyable in small rooms and Art Dudley said the best John Bonham he heard was on Devore Orangutans (though I never auditioned them for that so I cannot comment).
The other thing is apart from some big horns, I find I like speakers which are much smaller compared to the room size – as things like cones need to completely disappear for the recording to show. My London friend’s Avalon compass diamonds is in a 14 * 30 ft room which it does not interact with. Anamighty sound on my first two trips there had the Joachim Garrard’s smallest speakers in a big room – every change in recording could be heard so well, as with the Audionec Evo 2. Same with Devores (they need a lot of space around them). Whenever I have switched from them to a much larger speaker in the same room, while soundstage and bass increased and wowed on the first track, it repeated on the second, and got boring by the 4th. But this only happened after using good quality records to demo.
On the big speaker front - I preferred trios with bass horns, then realized Henk's apogee grands did the same weight and dynamics as trios, maybe better, with better midrange magic that ribbons have. Then I found that dual FLH did same weight and macro slams as Henk's Grands, but with nuance and purity of SETs. That is also with digital. It is not surprising that Leif made his transition from Wilsons to apogees to trios to dual FLH.
If I was more analog, then when I did not know about recordings, or when I got to know quality reissues, both were fine too, with more tilt towards horns.
The more I get into original recordings, the more I am for only SETs horns, with compromise non-horn solutions being SETs devores or SETs audionec evo 2 (which is transparent like an electrostat and great for medium sized rooms). That is because this is where recordings and performances show, and you feel you are moving from concert to another as you change the LP. You are transcending that part where now you are enjoying the music, entire LP, without focusing on hifi, and yet you are enjoying every part of the hifi hobby because when you change a component, it is so much more transparent too. For me with this strategy, signal path gets simpler, and this leads to lower cost as well, because you need less sh*t. In an ideal world you would need 1 LP and a simple wire to a crossoverless speaker, and that would have no component cost – but while ideal does not exist, my ideal is more to this side than to a complex crossover with DSP and lots of complex amps putting imparting their own colour. I also find with set ups like this, the impact of realism comes from recordings. The rest of the stuff is more about synergy with the speaker and synergy is more about discovery costs rather than component costs.
That is about type of playback and recordings. As far as music genre goes, if someone wanted amplified like rock, I would not go horns except for dual front loaded horns, which then trump all other type of speakers for rock as well. Sensitive speakers with closed baffle one woofer (like Altec 604, for example, or Tannoys) are quite enjoyable in small rooms and Art Dudley said the best John Bonham he heard was on Devore Orangutans (though I never auditioned them for that so I cannot comment).
The other thing is apart from some big horns, I find I like speakers which are much smaller compared to the room size – as things like cones need to completely disappear for the recording to show. My London friend’s Avalon compass diamonds is in a 14 * 30 ft room which it does not interact with. Anamighty sound on my first two trips there had the Joachim Garrard’s smallest speakers in a big room – every change in recording could be heard so well, as with the Audionec Evo 2. Same with Devores (they need a lot of space around them). Whenever I have switched from them to a much larger speaker in the same room, while soundstage and bass increased and wowed on the first track, it repeated on the second, and got boring by the 4th. But this only happened after using good quality records to demo.
On the big speaker front - I preferred trios with bass horns, then realized Henk's apogee grands did the same weight and dynamics as trios, maybe better, with better midrange magic that ribbons have. Then I found that dual FLH did same weight and macro slams as Henk's Grands, but with nuance and purity of SETs. That is also with digital. It is not surprising that Leif made his transition from Wilsons to apogees to trios to dual FLH.
Last edited:
Well...nothing...you go on as before...its still just a hobby, right?
I thought the Nagra/Wilson room this year was quite decent! Not top of show but definitely not dreadful. Wilson with CH was dreadful... Wilson with VTL was so-so.[please forgive my poor English]
Conversion: No, no, really not
Electronic music has tempo/rythm. But there is neither dynamic, nor timbres in it.
Regarding electro, I like very much Luke Abott's compositions, made of repeated loops. On a quiter side, Nils Frahm (who also plays with acoustic instruments, amongst all the biggest piano in the world, a Klavins M370). To some extent, one could be said that DJ Tiesto has no "real sound" by itself (unless he started to use acoustic instruments).
For tempo, and energy, electro can be great (Bach too, btw, and I hear that some DJ listen to Bach more and more, not kidding).
But electro, pop and rock are not the kind of music that I would "use" to assess gear (well, admittedly, a little bit of rock (Radiohead), electro, and jazz). To be able to enjoy/assess a audio system, I need a more direct connection to "the real thing", I mean the way "real" instruments sounds in the "real" life, that is: various concert halls, preferably very good ones. I admit that I can easily access live unamplified concerts (I attended 35 this season; also unamplified jazz in a small club). But beyond the touchy subject of "curiosity", I am aware that not everyone can access concert halls as easily as they wish, especially when an audiophile lives in a huge coutry like the US or Canada, or even in the countryside in France: attending a live unamplified concert can require a real journey then! (therefore the geographical contraint was the 1st one that I mentioned here - American members did already mentioned this to me privately, so I know it can be a real issue).
PS: Aries Cerat may have been unlucky this year. It is possible. But I can assure you that, once heard in good conditions, they succeeded in "converting" me in a flash, though I HATED horns! (shouty, fatiguing, etc). In the meantime, other members here kindly shared with me their views over some other horns that I could maybe like too. I thank them all for that.PS2: I am perfectly aware that your comments relate to the final sonic outcome that you heard, into a specific room. I believe you when you said the Wilson demos were desappointing. I am not especially a Wilson guy, but at the Brussel New Music HighEnd Innovation show 2022, I was struck how different two Wilson rooms sounded. One, partnered with D'Agostino. The second, with Nagra (I know you didn't like either). I reported those huge defferences, which demonstrates that it seems possible to make them play in one way or another, to a certain extent of course.PS3: give Luke Abott's White Box Stereo a try ;-)
I was revisiting your immersive thoughts and considerations only the previous day , as engagingly descriptive a read as the first time Oliver.
Post in thread 'Aries Cerat Symphonia Review'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/aries-cerat-symphonia-review.33417/post-740962
Last edited:
We will sure do. Have been playing with Kondo (Japan) 211/300b (set) amps for about 20 years now. So horn loudspeakers might have been a good match with these amps but … I have never heard a horn that was to my liking. Although I have not heard the Aries horns I experienced a lot of other horns over a long period of time. Just not my cup of tea casu quo horns are (so far) just not to my liking. And luckily there are great sounding ribbon loudspeakers (in my case the Genesis 1.1) and cone loudspeakers (in my case the Tidal La Assoluta) available for playing (in my case mostly classical) music. And although these transducers (like horns) are of course not as good / natural sounding as a real orchestra playing in a great music hall - I am a regular visitor of the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam so the Concertgebouw is a sort of benchmark for me - they provide me with a lot of (musical) pleasure. So yes, it is (only) a hobby.
This is very well said. The convergence is on something outside ourselves that we can point to. Whether one makes the stock claim "we all hear differently" or believes we hear more similarly than different, we converge on the concert hall where we can share the objective truth of that.
In my last review I talked about an "... auditory template accumulated across years of exposure to live performances." I very much like your phrase 'aural compass' as it implies guiding or direction setting. I will borrow it from you.
In all my conversations with you you have never heard a horn I have liked. I have suggested you three horns in the EU, and one cone. If you do get around to them, and say you don't like horns, I will write you off my conversion list. Till then, you are like the MOST likely candidate to convert with the exposure.
Kedar, I am perfectly happy with my non-horn system as it is right now. And although I do not visit (classical) music concerts as much as you do, I do attend them on a regular basis. So like you I know how non-amplified music sounds like in a good or (in case of the Concertgebouw) great hall.
That is precisely why I said you are the most like to convert. I really respect your understanding of music, and the fact that you like to set up a system to listen to classical music, and you are very emotional about it as well, and you have experience with recordings. All these mean you are most likely to convert if you hear the right horns. You will stay with non-horns till you hear the right horns, not after.
Maybe you are right but of course there is also a real possibility that- after experiencing the (horn) loudspeakers you have suggested to me in the past - I will still prefer my current non-horn loudspeakers.
Only one way to find out. Murat did give up his top level Tidal and Gryphon Mephisto and went on to build, what at least on video, and based on experience of AER BD4, was the best horn speaker.
Did Murat own Tidal’s top of the line LA’s (I rule out the Tidal for Bugatti loudspeakers because I have not heard those yet)?
The only real way to find out is to set up the (horn) loudspeakers you suggested to me in my listening room with my audio equipment and with all my Tripoint Audio grounding features (and just to be sure: both my LA’s are grounded with (top of the line) Tripoint Audio grounding cables and the (top of the line) Tripoint’s elite NG (grounding) device. As far as I am aware I am the only person on this planet who is doing this while grounding the LA’s - and it is exactly the same with grounding the Wadax reference dac - makes a significant difference for the better because you getting rid off so much distortion). And such a set up at my place is very unlikely to happen while listening to these transducers with different equipment in a different room says only so much.
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Sticky
- Sticky
