Toward a Better WBF…

[PYP]

this assumes hifi is an efficient market with knowledgable customers, and a large enough number to create that demand supply curve

and do you believe it isn't? (I don't have a perspective on the numbers)

 

[Lee]

I often think the upper end of the prices in our hobby is ridiculous, but doesn't the market correct for this?

"In economics, a free market is an economic system in which the prices of goods and services are determined by supply and demand expressed by sellers and buyers. Such markets, as modeled, operate without the intervention of government or any other external authority" [wikipedia]

"A good's Price elasticity of demand (

, PED) is a measure of how sensitive the quantity demanded is to its price. ... At an elasticity of 0 consumption would not change at all, in spite of any price increases."

Good point. You also have to include the rise of the ultra-luxury customer segment. That certainly applies to Wilson.

 

[Lee]

this assumes hifi is an efficient market with knowledgable customers, and a large enough number to create that demand supply curve

That efficient marketplace probably exists for Wilson given their large dealer network, large global customer base, and significant press coverage.

 

[Amir]

Lee,

in 2005, Max2 price was 44k, Porsche 911 start at 69k (U.S. prices)
in 2023, Alex V price is around 130k, porsche 911 start at 107k (U.S. prices)

we can honestly say audio prices of some companies are rising faster then 0-60 miles of sport cars.

when it comes to cost of R&D, materials and production, my humb guess would be that the car was much, much more expensive.

Wilson or any other manufacture increase the prices as high as possible (it is marketing strategy) and most of the time there is no meaningful relation between quality and price tags.

Audio technology hardly improves while high end prices increase faster than other industries.

 

[PYP]

Good point. You also have to include the rising of the ultra-luxury customer class. That certainly applies to Wilson.

I believe we would find that the increasing wealth of the people who buy such items is not only rising much faster than everyone else [already proven], but that their increasing wealth is also rising faster than prices of luxury goods. But, I no factual basis for the second part of this statement.

 

[Lee]

I have no skin in the "Wilson game" , but I think the trickle down is largely the design and r&d elements. The cost of the parts and other materials I'd expect is based upon their inventory carrying protocol and quantity of overlap from model to model

Wilson, like most manufacturers, gets parts from 3rd parties. Some of these parts have gone up 4X according to Daryl.

 

[Lee]

Wilson or any other manufacture increase the prices as high as possible (it is marketing strategy) and most of the time there is no meaningful relation between quality and price tags.

Audio technology hardly improves while high end prices increase faster than other industries.

I think you need to support this with empirical data.

And to be honest, I think audio technology is improving greatly. My ears are getting more and more happy as the realism improves. The loudspeaker is getting more and more refined with better parts and approaches even if some of the designs date back to the 1930s.

It’s fashionable on WBF to hate the manufacturers and think that nothing is new. I am not buying it in either case.

 

[morricab]

I think you need to support this with empirical data.

And to be honest, I think audio technology is improving greatly. My ears are getting more and more happy as the realism improves. The loudspeaker is getting more and more refined with better parts and approaches even if some of the designs date back to the 1930s.

It’s fashionable on WBF to hate the manufacturers and think that nothing is new. I am not buying it in either case.

Lee your ignorance on audio history is astounding!!

 

[leyenda]

Wilson’s marketing campaign is so successful their customer helps them defend price increases to fellow audiophiles with technological advancements, raw material price increase etc etc…. Salute!

 

[Elliot G.]

Gentlemen,
First their really is no real scale at all in High End Audio. These are all small companies. They buy parts in very small quantities compared to other industries and so the prices for parts are high and continue rising becasue they cant buy items in large enough quantities to keep prices low long Covid changed everything for the worse and the world has not yet recovered ( if they ever will) from the shortages and the rising costs of energy and transportation.
Supply and Demand and whether clients want to pay the price controls what the market will make and more importantly what gets sold and for how much.
Look at other Industies and the supply shortages, whether real or imagined, have driven prices sky high. Porsche. Rolex, Corvettes, Ferrari etc.
Will they stay there? charging over retail for used and way over for new as long as you are SPECIAL enough to get allocation? time will tell.
If one thinks logically about the size of any of our favorite companies thay are in the business world TINY? How many companies have more than 20-30 employees? Do more than 25 million in sales? ( this is tiny guys)
So there never is any efficiency or scale when buying things buy the dozen or the hundred.
Subcontractors are extremely hard to find that are first capable of making high quality items in small batches and even harder to find any that want to do that kind of work. If they do it isnt cheap . LOGIC

 

[bonzo75]

Wilson’s marketing campaign is so successful their customer helps them defend price increases to fellow audiophiles with technological advancements, raw material price increase etc etc…. Salute!

You are a very smart customer. Here is my bill. Now, please tell people how smartly you put your money where your mouth is.

and now here is my upgrade. were you dumb the last time around?

 

[Lee]

Gentlemen,
First their really is no real scale at all in High End Audio. These are all small companies. They buy parts in very small quantities compared to other industries and so the prices for parts are high and continue rising becasue they cant buy items in large enough quantities to keep prices low long Covid changed everything for the worse and the world has not yet recovered ( if they ever will) from the shortages and the rising costs of energy and transportation.
Supply and Demand and whether clients want to pay the price controls what the market will make and more importantly what gets sold and for how much.
Look at other Industies and the supply shortages, whether real or imagined, have driven prices sky high. Porsche. Rolex, Corvettes, Ferrari etc.
Will they stay there? charging over retail for used and way over for new as long as you are SPECIAL enough to get allocation? time will tell.
If one thinks logically about the size of any of our favorite companies thay are in the business world TINY? How many companies have more than 20-30 employees? Do more than 25 million in sales? ( this is tiny guys)
So there never is any efficiency or scale when buying things buy the dozen or the hundred.
Subcontractors are extremely hard to find that are first capable of making high quality items in small batches and even harder to find any that want to do that kind of work. If they do it isnt cheap . LOGIC

Well said.

 

[Lee]

Wilson’s marketing campaign is so successful their customer helps them defend price increases to fellow audiophiles with technological advancements, raw material price increase etc etc…. Salute!

I am sharing my opinion as both an audiophile and a former McKinsey consultant. My goal is simply to present the other side of the argument where useful. Here the other side is what the manufacturer is facing. I just left as CEO of Nextscreen and that allowed me to build relationships with the leadership of many manufacturers so I have some insight from frequent discussions with people in the business.

 

[Lee]

Lee your ignorance on audio history is astounding!!

What specific part of my comments do you take issue with?

 

[Gregm]

Lee your ignorance on audio history is astounding!!

Out of interest what thoughts inspire this statement?
Loudspeaker design now has software modelling support, useful measuring techniques, several different cone materials at hand (including hard ceramics - "diamonds", AMT, ribbon, etc).


(Whether or not you consider the sonic result an improvement is another matter.)

 

[exupgh12]

That’s not a good analysis as we don’t know what the materials costs are in each example nor do we have equalized economies of scale. Porsche builds hundreds of thousands of cars and Wilson builds thousands of units. Wilson has less inventory to spread the costs over.

Possibly, a reduction in the price of Willson (or other products) could potentially lead to higher sales volume. This is just a suggestion.

Speaking of materials, I have a strong belief that the cost of materials, construction, and painting for a Porsche is significantly higher than that of a loudspeaker.

Of course, our viewpoints don't necessarily need to align on these matters.

 

[Lee]

Out of interest what thoughts inspire this statement?
Loudspeaker design now has software modelling support, useful measuring techniques, several different cone materials at hand (including hard ceramics - "diamonds", AMT, ribbon, etc).


(Whether or not you consider the sonic result an improvement is another matter.)

Agreed. Better cabinet materials, better cabinet design, better spikes, better capacitors, Klippel at Magico, etc.

 

[Elliot G.]

Possibly, a reduction in the price of Willson (or other products) could potentially lead to higher sales volume. This is just a suggestion.

Speaking of materials, I have a strong belief that the cost of materials, construction, and painting for a Porsche is significantly higher than that of a loudspeaker.

Of course, our viewpoints don't necessarily need to align on these matters.

The Porsche parts may cost more for sure but Porsche produced over 321,000 cars in 2022.
Trust me Wilson or any other High end company werent in the same zipcode. I dont how many pairs Wilson builds a year , or any company btw but I can be pretty sure it isnt even 1500 let alone 321,000

 

[Amir]

I think you need to support this with empirical data.

And to be honest, I think audio technology is improving greatly. My ears are getting more and more happy as the realism improves. The loudspeaker is getting more and more refined with better parts and approaches even if some of the designs date back to the 1930s.

It’s fashionable on WBF to hate the manufacturers and think that nothing is new. I am not buying it in either case.

I like wilson audio Alexandria and I also like Wilson WAMM, there is no hate about Wilson Audio but you know Wilson WAMM is around $1.000.000 and this price is high.

In my opinion not all new audio products are better than vintage products.

 

[Lee]

I like wilson audio Alexandria and I also like Wilson WAMM, there is no hate about Wilson Audio but you know Wilson WAMM is around $1.000.000 and this price is high.

In my opinion not all new audio products are better than vintage products.

In my opinion, not all products are better than vintage but most products are. The midrange of the XVX is better than the WAMM, for instance.