Toward a Better WBF…

[MarkusBarkus]

Not just Wilson but almost all high end companies are simply ripping us off in order to continue their luxurious life.

...I just never understand how folks make this argument. If they were selling oxygen on the moon, maybe (but there's a case for that too).

Who/what makes anyone buy any speaker? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's simple (to me). Or any of the myriad of luxury goods/services. To me, the tone comes across as a consumer has a *right* to cheap stuff that approaches perfection.

That has never been my understanding of how life works. And btw the actual people that build Porches and Wilson speakers (I own neither) also have families, mortgages, etc. These are all businesses building products for sale at a price they feel reflects the various aspects of the business. Including the risk of owning a business.

Think they're making too much money or not providing good value? Buy something else, would be my recommendation.

 

[bonzo75]

...I just never understand how folks make this argument. If they were selling oxygen on the moon, maybe (but there's a case for that too).

Who/what makes anyone buy any speaker? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's simple (to me). Or any of the myriad of luxury goods/services. To me, the tone comes across as a consumer has a *right* to cheap stuff that approaches perfection.

That has never been my understanding of how life works. And btw the actual people that build Porches and Wilson speakers (I own neither) also have families, mortgages, etc. These are all businesses building products for sale at a price they feel reflects the various aspects of the business. Including the risk of owning a business.

Think they're making too much money or not providing good value? Buy something else, would be my recommendation.

That's not the point. You can buy a Porsche or Ferrari or Bentley, or whatever. If you buy a Ferrari, you are not going to claim I bought it because it gives me good mileage, or to drive my kids to school and back, as a family car. Similarly, those who want to buy a luxury audio product feel free...just don't keep claiming it does sonics better, when it doesn't. Luxury and functionality are different things, and in audio, at least the debates are often about what sounds good...not what has more status, what is more luxury, flashy, etc.

 

[mtemur]

...I just never understand how folks make this argument. If they were selling oxygen on the moon, maybe (but there's a case for that too).

Who/what makes anyone buy any speaker? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's simple (to me). Or any of the myriad of luxury goods/services. To me, the tone comes across as a consumer has a *right* to cheap stuff that approaches perfection.

That has never been my understanding of how life works. And btw the actual people that build Porches and Wilson speakers (I own neither) also have families, mortgages, etc. These are all businesses building products for sale at a price they feel reflects the various aspects of the business. Including the risk of owning a business.

Think they're making too much money or not providing good value? Buy something else, would be my recommendation.

You don't understand my point. Nothing wrong with high prices, nothing wrong with buying them. You can even pay 100USD for a piece of paper towel. It's up to you but advocating the price with supply chain issues, raw material prices bla, bla is unacceptable . The problem is justifying it not the high prices.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That's not the point. You can buy a Porsche or Ferrari or Bentley, or whatever. If you buy a Ferrari, you are not going to claim I bought it because it gives me good mileage, or to drive my kids to school and back, as a family car. Similarly, those who want to buy a luxury audio product feel free...just don't keep claiming it does sonics better, when it doesn't. Luxury and functionality are different things, and in audio, at least the debates are often about what sounds good...not what has more status, what is more luxury, flashy, etc.

while i agree in a broad sense, plenty of luxury hifi products are mostly about the luxury part, you cannot just say that and paint all uber priced gear with the same brush. sometimes......the some of the pretty pieces is greater than the parts. and......sometimes......not.

let's just not become a place where it's all about the price, let's try our best to consider the merits. when someone likes something very spendy, let's try to 'get' what might be special about what it does, not what it costs. of course, maybe we won't like what we find out either way.....depending on where we stand.

 

[bonzo75]

while i agree in a broad sense, plenty of luxury hifi products are mostly about the luxury part, you cannot just say that and paint all uber priced gear with the same brush. sometimes......the some of the pretty pieces is greater than the parts. and......sometimes......not.

let's just not become a place where it's all about the price, let's try our best to consider the merits. when someone likes something very spendy, let's try to 'get' what might be special about what it does, not what it costs. of course, maybe we won't like what we find out either way.....depending on where we stand.

Mike, this ignores that many expensive products might not do the fundamental thing required in Audio. Sound good. Sure, if you have two very good TTs, you can buy the expensive one of the two for other factors, but these can be stated - service, looks, etc etc. Buying an expensive TT where it sounds like an Oppo just has no justification, especially if one starts arguing he bought it for the sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Audio should fundamentally be a functional product. There are clear sonic templates to aim for. Otherwise people should set up a home theater system, or just collect cars or watches. Seriously, if someone is buying audio luxury that is sonically not sounding good for status, that is sad...look, your wives mostly don't care, your non audiophile friends don't...if some forum members do, it is the group that you associate with....there are forum groups that "confer" status for various aspects...just hang out with the right one, for those who want to collect statuses. Audiophile is judged by the company he keeps.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, this ignores that many expensive products might not do the fundamental thing required in Audio. Sound good.

exactly what i wrote, judge it on the merits, and withhold reactions based on price. price can certainly raise expectations, that is fair and how it should work. it's value of course, is not the same for all users/listeners.

Sure, if you have two very good TTs, you can buy the expensive one of the two for other factors, but these can be stated - service, looks, etc etc. Buying an expensive TT where it sounds like an Oppo just has no justification, especially if one starts arguing he bought it for the sound.

we agree completely. don't disagree at all. there are those examples we both can think of that we will not post about.

ordinary sound is not restricted to the entry level, neither is good sound restricted to more/very highly expensive either.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes. The company continues to evolve its drivers. The new midrange for the XVX uses Alnico magnets and is an improvement on the already excellent WAMM.

John Atkinson responded to the time coherency question when he said the Wilsons measure well on that dimension.

I do think there are many improvements in audio technology. I did not make any claims herein on vintage speakers or good analog playback except. I did claim that, based on my current understanding from talking to de Paravicini, that analog tape has an uniquely dense amount of musical information.

Lee are you a lobbyist for wilson / DCS ?

Regarding alnico magnets this material has been in use since the 1930 s .
Please come with something better

 

[Al M.]

...I just never understand how folks make this argument. If they were selling oxygen on the moon, maybe (but there's a case for that too).

Who/what makes anyone buy any speaker? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's simple (to me). Or any of the myriad of luxury goods/services. To me, the tone comes across as a consumer has a *right* to cheap stuff that approaches perfection.

That has never been my understanding of how life works. And btw the actual people that build Porches and Wilson speakers (I own neither) also have families, mortgages, etc. These are all businesses building products for sale at a price they feel reflects the various aspects of the business. Including the risk of owning a business.

Think they're making too much money or not providing good value? Buy something else, would be my recommendation.

That's what I do, buy stuff that I think provides good value, regardless of price (while I am not willing to spend above a certain level). That explains why I have a DAC that costs only $2,2K, but a preamp that costs $15K. I think the expensive preamp is fully worth it based on its sonic performance. On the other hand, there is no reason for me to buy a more expensive DAC, since I have heard mine beat or equal others at 10 x the price. The sonic performance is fully worth feeding the $15K preamp. Of course, some people think my DAC is shit because the brand is called Schiit. They are too uptight to like the joke, and/or too uninterested to decouple the idea of sonic performance from purchase price and investigate along those lines.

That's the beauty of capitalism. The customer can buy either what they perceive as good value, or go for prestige and brand image and spend too much money compared to actual product performance. Meanwhile the market sorts itself out through all of that by free competition.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Regarding audio components i just buy/ make what i think sounds good , what somebody else thinks of my choice is his / hers problem .
Some expensive components are worth it a lot are not .
Same as with cheap components, some are worth it some not
I do like well made stuff which comes at a price off course due to design/ buildingcosts

 

[XV-1]

Surely you are kidding? I have no quarrel with your perspective, which you are certainly free to express. I just want to know one thing. Have you heard both the Maxx3 and the Alexx V running the same gear in the same room? No sensible audiophile would ever mistake them sonically as remotely close to each other. (Just FYI, I've owned both, with different gear of course). When unsubstantiated and ill-informed remarks like the one you made go unchallenged it serves nobody well. Why on god's green earth would you characterize them as "essentially the same speaker"? The driver's are totally different, the crossovers are different, the cabinet material is different, the driver alignment is different, the cabinet venting is different, etc. The list goes on. Is a 2023 Tesla essentially the same car as a 1934 Packard because they both have 4 tires and a steering wheel?

Regarding pricing, which you are so quick to condemn Wilson for, I would remind you that the Alexx V is universally considered to be a significantly better speaker than the Alexandria XLF (which I also owned) but it retails for about 60K less than its predecessor. Why not cite that as a meaningful and welcome real world value proposition from Wilson?

Marty

Where and when did I mention how the Alexx V sounds?
My point is, the Maxx3 and Alexx V occupy the same space in the Wilson line-up. The Alexx V occupies very similar foot print.

Rhe Alexx V sounds very good and for 100k more , it should!!.
I have heard it at the dealers shop. It did not sound US$100k better than my Maxx3's.

I have not read universally that the Alexx V sounds better than the Alexandria XLF. Some prefer the bass of the XLF and certainly the ease of driving them.

My only comment was the price of Wilson’s have risen exponentially higher than they have any right to. They are not Robinson Crusoe in that regard.

Cheers

 

[rando]

Bitter WBF?
Backwards to?

No thank you, I'll pass on that particular vintage. Bring out something fun and fresh to sample.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

The problem is justifying it not the high prices.

...I get it, but interestingly, it doesn't seem to be the companies that are trying to justify prices. They let the market sort that out. Rather, it's gents on a forum that are making many assumptions both about what things *actually* cost and what they *should* cost.

If gents want to compare a new or old component and say it's not better than a new or old one that costs less money, that's fine by me, and that person may well choose the cheaper component as a better value. And if they find it actually sounds better to them, sure, save the moolah and enjoy the music.

Personally, I own a pair of Magico A5s, which I heard and liked just before they got hyped in the press and the price rose a bit. I really like what I hear from the A 5s here.

And yet, over time I wonder: would the new S3s sound even better...for double the price! Hard to believe, but maybe they would. Would they?

I have watched the vids and read the reviews. I think I understand the differences in components and construction, and can imagine how it would add to a price increase.

Do these improvements support double the price to buy the improvement in SQ? Is there an improvement in SQ? Would an old pair of Brand X sound better?

Would the mythical 200K speakers of an adjacent thread crush them? Somewhere on WBF someone wrote the A5s were a good entry level speaker. I was shocked. 30 large is entry level now? It's all relative anyway. I didn't take it as an insult.

We don't *really* know why a specific product costs what it costs, unless you bugged the company's offices. We're just speculating and chewing the fat online. I'm not trying to justify anything, other than to my wife, which requires marketing spin of the highest order. It's all good to me, whatever you decide.

 

[microstrip]

...I just never understand how folks make this argument. If they were selling oxygen on the moon, maybe (but there's a case for that too).

IMO it is simple to understand - if people do nof find value in such equipment and do not understand others preferences they will focus on the luxury - that surely exists - and ignore the sound quality.

Who/what makes anyone buy any speaker? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's simple (to me). Or any of the myriad of luxury goods/services. To me, the tone comes across as a consumer has a *right* to cheap stuff that approaches perfection.

Sound quality according to their preference and a lot of other factors, such as availability, dealer assistance, trust in the brand and surely a decent marketing strategy from the manufacturer to reach consumers.

That has never been my understanding of how life works. And btw the actual people that build Porches and Wilson speakers (I own neither) also have families, mortgages, etc. These are all businesses building products for sale at a price they feel reflects the various aspects of the business. Including the risk of owning a business.

Curiously Porsche fits their cars with Bose and Burmester systems, not Wilson!

Think they're making too much money or not providing good value? Buy something else, would be my recommendation.

Well, it seems many people find they provide good value.

 

[PYP]

I'm not trying to justify anything, other than to my wife, which requires marketing spin of the highest order.

will you reveal your secrets here among the gents? Kind of like a public service announcement.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...sometimes alcohol is involved. Sometimes, deals are stuck. Promises made. On one occasion, it involved airline tickets.

 

[Audire]

The title of this thread is “Toward a Better WBF…” From many of the comments it seems it should be renamed, “Toward a Bitter WBF…”

How many friends have been lost in this thread? While I’m no saint in such matters, we’re better than this, aren’t we?

WTB is fine just the way it is - except for such fighting as in this thread.

Please let’s get back to discussing high-end audio!

 

[microstrip]

while i agree in a broad sense, plenty of luxury hifi products are mostly about the luxury part, you cannot just say that and paint all uber priced gear with the same brush. sometimes......the some of the pretty pieces is greater than the parts. and......sometimes......not.

Exactly. The real problem is that no one has the right to determine that he is the judge who separates the wheat from the chaff in the high-end and such exercice will always end in ASR.

let's just not become a place where it's all about the price, let's try our best to consider the merits. when someone likes something very spendy, let's try to 'get' what might be special about what it does, not what it costs. of course, maybe we won't like what we find out either way.....depending on where we stand.

All we can ask is some transparency from the manufacturers - but we know that in the high-end secrecy it most of the times part of the business.

Understanding equipment is an holistic affair - we must know about music preference, biases, room space, listening habits and also social life of the owners.

 

[PYP]

...sometimes alcohol is involved. Sometimes, deals are stuck. Promises made. On one occasion, it involved airline tickets.

are you sure the potential S3s upgrade was your idea and not your wife whispering in your ear during REM sleep? Or is that the new audiophile made-for-TV movie?

 

[Joe Whip]

...sometimes alcohol is involved. Sometimes, deals are stuck. Promises made. On one occasion, it involved airline tickets.

What, no bling? Lucky guy!