The Noob Linearity factor

[PeterA]

That is a very nice post Mik. I’m sorry to read about your continuing health concerns.

I had been under the impression that Kedar did visit you and experience that wonderful turntable collection of yours. Thank you for correcting that misunderstanding.

I miss your contributions to this forum. All the best to you.

 

[Kingrex]

I had to reread Bonzos post a couple times. He never said anyone should go in any particular direction. Or look for any particular sound. He seems to have only said, most people are exposed to a very limited selection of equipment. Most peolle are exposed to limited information. As such, the conclusions they draw on what they perceive as ####### are not accurate.

I think all he has really said is people need to get out and be exposed to more varied types of systems to understand what limitations are preaent in their own system. Then they will be able to better able to understand what definitions we give such as Natural or Like the Real Thing. And, act upon their own systems to bring elements they enjoy into their own listening space.

I never heard him say this means a Horn and SET. Just that people need to hear all the types of systema out there to make informed content on forums and decisions on purchases.

If this is the OP intent, then I agree. If the intent is to say people need to eventually gravitate in some particular direction of sonic playback, then I disagree with that meditation. But I do believe consumers would make better purchasing decisons if they did take the time to go out and be exposed before buying.

 

[XV-1]

The same goes for music. why pigeon hole yourself to one genre. Get out there and listen to as much new music and varied music as you can.
Your system should be good enough and your mind open enough to appreciate the variety.

 

[108CY]

That is a very nice post Mik. I’m sorry to read about your continuing health concerns.

I had been under the impression that Kedar did visit you and experience that wonderful turntable collection of yours. Thank you for correcting that misunderstanding.

I miss your contributions to this forum. All the best to you.

Thank you Peter for you kind , I hope all is well its been a long time since we talked.

 

[bonzo75]

I had been under the impression that Kedar did visit you and experience that wonderful turntable collection of yours. Thank you for correcting that misunderstanding.

No I never visited him. Bill did

 

[Carlos269]

The same goes for music. why pigeon hole yourself to one genre. Get out there and listen to as much new music and varied music as you can.
Your system should be good enough and your mind open enough to appreciate the variety.

Absolutely, there are audiophiles out there that have been listening to same 10 songs for years, still stuck in the system evaluation mode.

music is what it is all about, whether it sounds great or not doesn’t really matter. There is so much more to music than its sound qualities.

Just like you shouldn’t be closed minded about music, you should also not be closed minded about stereo systems. By stereotyping, you are only cheating yourself of how great it could be.

 

[bonzo75]

I had to reread Bonzos post a couple times. He never said anyone should go in any particular direction. Or look for any particular sound. He seems to have only said, most people are exposed to a very limited selection of equipment. Most peolle are exposed to limited information. As such, the conclusions they draw on what they perceive as ####### are not accurate.

precisely. plus, I am saying they should recheck their preferences when they gain experience. And I don’t mean the simple preference of one component Vs another in one set up Vs another…that is obvious. Just more preference from broader level and therefore strategic direction. Too much time and money spent defending the sunken cost decisions made during the inexperienced early days

 

[PeterA]

I had to reread Bonzos post a couple times. He never said anyone should go in any particular direction. Or look for any particular sound. He seems to have only said, most people are exposed to a very limited selection of equipment. Most peolle are exposed to limited information. As such, the conclusions they draw on what they perceive as ####### are not accurate.

I think all he has really said is people need to get out and be exposed to more varied types of systems to understand what limitations are preaent in their own system. Then they will be able to better able to understand what definitions we give such as Natural or Like the Real Thing. And, act upon their own systems to bring elements they enjoy into their own listening space.

I never heard him say this means a Horn and SET. Just that people need to hear all the types of systema out there to make informed content on forums and decisions on purchases.

If this is the OP intent, then I agree. If the intent is to say people need to eventually gravitate in some particular direction of sonic playback, then I disagree with that meditation. But I do believe consumers would make better purchasing decisons if they did take the time to go out and be exposed before buying.

Nice post. No, I never saw Ked say people have to buy SET and Horns. It’s the same as natural sound not requiring SET and horns. I’ve heard some cone and panel speakers, some digital, and some solid-state, in fact sound quite natural to me. People have their own preferences and choose how to describe it.

Who could argue with increasing exposure? However, I think people are free to pursue this hobby anyway they want. And if they want to continue the path they started on, that is fine too.

 

[Carlos269]

For me it is just a hobby and fun yes I do have to earn a living and have heavily invested in it but when we start hurting others over silly things such as hifi it becomes pointless. I was in hospital for 3 months seeing death head on any miniute anyone can die and thats a simple real fact it all puts it into perspective. I am no better I have got worked up in the past too about the hobby and may still do as I am only human as are the wonderful souls here.

The only time I have met ked was at a food festival and it was nice as we never talked hifi and could see him as a kind individual and very intelligent, hifi and other other hobbies bring our passion and sometimes we upset others.

I can see why many great contributors have decided to step back as they just do not want to get involved in petty things we all have enough trouble but surviving day to day .

End of the day we all have driven ourself potty with the hobby, I respect everyones choice if someone asks me privately I can share my experiences and am happy to do so, I do not have the energy I once did due to onging health issues. Writing in public and insulting others and thinking myself as a higher authority even though I have invested millions in the hobby I wont. I actually value people and their feelings much higher than any bit of Hifi and who am I, in any case by hurting others we often cause more harm to ourselves. Ultimately the hobby will be here when we are dead and gone at least we can be kind and understanding as of now. I sit on the fence deciding not to get involved in squabbles that have no meaning as I am spending more time these days on things that truly matter and this involves being kind to others.

The hobby is about having fun and we all like different things and we have so much to choose from yes mistakes may be made but so much is learnt from it I too have made many but on a higher level not much matters. I beg for forgiveness for any offences I have caused.

First of all, sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope that things get better soon.

There are absolutely a great number of things in our lives more important than audio. Those things should be our main focus in life

WhatsBestForum is a forum or place where we escape the realities of everyday life to come and exchange throughs and information on our hobby and have discussions and conversation where we agree and disagree.

I personally find these type of topics the reason that I come on these forums, if it was just to hear the sycophantic echo that everything and everyone is great and that there’s flowers growing out of everyone’s ass then it wouldn’t be that interesting to me.

 

[108CY]

First of all, sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope that things get better soon.

There are absolutely a great number of things in our lives more important than audio. Those things should be our main focus in life

WhatsBestForum is a forum or place where we escape the realities of everyday life to come and exchange throughs and information on our hobby and have discussions and conversation where we agree and disagree.

I personally find these type of topics the reason that I come on these forums, if it was just to hear the sycophantic echo that everything and everyone is great and that there’s flowers growing out of everyone’s ass then it wouldn’t be that interesting to me.

First of all, sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope that things get better soon.

There are absolutely a great number of things in our lives more important than audio. Those things should be our main focus in life

WhatsBestForum is a forum or place where we escape the realities of everyday life to come and exchange throughs and information on our hobby and have discussions and conversation where we agree and disagree.

I personally find these type of topics the reason that I come on these forums, if it was just to hear the sycophantic echo that everything and everyone is great and that there’s flowers growing out of everyone’s ass then it wouldn’t be that interesting to me.

Thank you for your responce and kind words, and agree other things are far more important and I am so thankful I have so much more available that gives me greater satisfaction than any bit of Hifi. I agree the forum is a great place to learn from others experiences and I personally have my preferences but at the same time I understand what I like will not suit everyone and everyones system. I have had to spend alot of money learning do I regret it no Hifi has taken over much of my living space and I still own items that are not suitable for my listening tastes but sometimes with the correct partnering equiptment they just work.

I do think we can be kind while doing so thats all as in reality there are greater things that matter, I use ancient wisdom and knowledge to bring me closer to what truly matters and feelings do matter especially when one can see that the people involved are nice individuals who just get a bit carried away I do beleive in the laws of karma for every action there is a reaction and I am just prone as anyone else. I am certainly far from perfect and have upset a few but I do try and reflect how these could have been avoided thats all. This is a wonderful forum with truly dedicated individuals sound vibration is the most highest forms of vibration many ancient scriptures even describe this and what matters is how we associate with this vibration to get on a higer platform. Thank you

 

[Ron Resnick]

there are audiophiles out there that have been listening to same 10 songs for years

Yep, that's me! And I'm not the slightest bit ashamed of it! (Well, not exactly 10; probably 10 classical, probably 10 jazz and probably 50 pop/rock songs.)

still stuck in the system evaluation mode.

But I don't listen to them only for system evaluation; I listen to them because I love those songs.

This week I've been playing Mazzy Star's "Fade into You" -- over and over and over . . .

 

[Ron Resnick]

music is what it is all about, whether it sounds great or not doesn’t really matter. There is so much more to music than its sound qualities.

Beautifully stated!

 

[bonzo75]

Yep, that's me! And I'm not the slightest bit ashamed of it! (Well, not exactly 10; probably 10 classical, probably 10 jazz and probably 50 pop/rock songs.)


But I don't listen to them only for system evaluation; I listen to them because I love those songs.

This week I've been playing Mazzy Star's "Fade into You" -- over and over and over . . .

Ron, you are a rare one that listens to 100% of his music range. What Carlos meant were people listen to 10 songs when they in reality have a much wider range, and would have been listening to much more if they had not got stuck in the evaluation mode.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, you are a rare one that listens to 100% of his music range. What Carlos meant were people listen to 10 songs when they in reality have a much wider range, and would have been listening to much more if they had not got stuck in the evaluation mode.

I listened to the same roughly forty LPs for a couple of months when judging set up decisions with my old system. I then did it again with my new system when setting it up and fine tuning the room, power, motor to platter connection, and some other things. I find using very familiar music, well recorded, helps this process. Once complete, I broke out of that mode and expanded my listening again to a much broader selection. I enjoy discovery new music on vinyl and adding it to my collection. When it comes to this aspect of the hobby,... to each their own.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, you are a rare one that listens to 100% of his music range. What Carlos meant were people listen to 10 songs when they in reality have a much wider range, and would have been listening to much more if they had not got stuck in the evaluation mode.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[Bobvin]

I will take a personal slant on this topic. For starters, I don’t often agree with Bonzo, but it is apparent that he has heard enough that it is he that is calling out the “Bull Shit!”

35 years ago I was Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab and Mike Levigne. Although I could not afford it back then, I was dazzled and mesmerized by the price tags and size & weights of the components! As I started building my system, I looked for the most expensive and biggest & heaviest items that I could afford. Flea power SET amplifiers were of no interest to me because they were small, light and relatively inexpensive.

On top of my desire to own the flavor of the month and Stereophile Class A rated components, I was under the belief that there was an Absolute Sound that we were all striving to achieve. There was a goal out there that if you spent more money and bought the latest and greatest you could one day achieve.

One night while listening I noticed that I had two different versions of the same CD and that they sounded different. How could this be? What made them different. I discovered that they were mastered by different mastering engineers and one was a remastered version of the original. That led me down a path that took me to the mastering studio world, where I lived for 7 years learning all and everything that I could. I will stop that part of my story there.

As I mentioned above, I had no interest or desire for flea power SET amplifiers or horns because they were not on the glossy pages of Stereophile and the Absolute Sound. I also knew that the speakers that I owned and liked, Magnepan MG-III and Martin Logan CLS series II needed current and power so I never bother to look in that direction.

One day while surfing the Audioweb site late at night; who here remembers Audioweb and AudioMark? I came across a pair of the Melos Audio RWT-70 Monoblocks, which I still own. RWT stands for Real World Triode. I liked the way that they looked, I still do, massive! I bought them and they were a revelation. I had not experienced tube amplification and was always spouting off about the virtues of solid-state amplifiers over tubes. I couldn’t believe how good the Melos monoblocks sounded. I then found a pair of KR Enterprise’s VT-6000 BM monoblocks, which belonged to Ricardo Kron, on rec.audio.high-end, remember that message group? With the help from Eunice I imported them. Then I bought a pair of Miles Nestorovic’s Alpha-1 monoblocks. These magnificent tube amplifiers would lead me to ask myself, is there something to the SET and horn movement? Is there something that I’m missing out on? At the time I had acquired the one of a kind Krell KRS-400, used for the release of the Martin Logan Statement speakers at CES in Chicago. I had the biggest, heaviest and baddest amplifiers at the time and still found myself listening to the Melos, Nestorovic, and the KR amps more.

It would take too long to chronicle my journey so let’s fast forward 30 years later. I now own what is perhaps the greatest collection of DHT and SET amplification and horn speakers. I have explored and investigated every faction of this hobby, including field-coil drivers, open baffle speakers, full range drivers, chipless true 1 bit high rate DSD dacs and adc’s, plasma tweeters, horn/cone/planar/bi-pioles/di-poles/mono-poles/true-ribbon/AMT/ line-array/point source/line source speakers of every variety. If it is a faction or out there in audio I either own it or have listen to it. This broad exposure to all the different approaches in audio and my time in the mastering studio world have shaped the way I think and approach audio today.

The take aways for me are that money doesn’t buy you quality sound, it buys you status, don’t overlook something because it is not on the pages of Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, or because it is not expensive, there is no finish line with a prize at the end, the only one you really need to worry about pleasing is yourself, in the end musically and enjoyment are more important than accuracy, as accuracy cannot be validated.

Don’t get stuck in a rut! Explore the audio world, as you may very well be surprised by what you hear.

Carlos, I’ve read so many of your posts where you exclaim superior knowledge on just about every topic under the sun —this is the most balanced and respectful post I’ve read from you.

 

[bonzo75]

Carlos, I’ve read so many of your posts where you exclaim superior knowledge on just about every topic under the sun

what about on the sun? Inside the sun’s core? He missed that?

 

[sbo6]

I think and at least IME your NLF is most common in early stages of the audiophile's journey for some. However, as you climb the ladder and experience higher end and more realistic sounding systems you then know more of what you're missing, and at what cost. There are always exceptions.

 

[bonzo75]

I think and at least IME your NLF is most common in early stages of the audiophile's journey for some. However, as you climb the ladder and experience higher end and more realistic sounding systems you then know more of what you're missing, and at what cost. There are always exceptions.

For me NLF is not early stage, by definition. Early stage is early stage. Everyone goes through it.

NLF is a conclusion made due to inexperience during the early stage that is carried on to the latter stage.

 

[Folsom]

I'll start with Ked is a total dick to me. I think the nomenclature is definitely meant to have a negative connotation since it starts with slang - it is amusing but not great for actual conversation. There is no video game on earth where "noob" is consider a positive description - and it comes from them.

But I do actually think he's right that many people trend towards "more of the same". It happens on the design of audio equipment as well. There are countless presumptions about what makes what sound, and rarely does anyone challenge them. But I don't specifically think SETs are the answer to everything, especially since many sound like smooth mud. The same goes for horns, they just are not all good. Good is good. JBL fits the very definition of what Ked is against but I don't think he's going to say all the legendary models are bad, as a lot of tube/vinyl/Asian/eccentric enthusiasts in the relative camp he's in, love them because they don't sound like their basic stats of being large and ported etc.

Overall there are a LOT of audiophiles that just have unexplored depths of possibilities. And part of that is not all gear can get them there - and digital is tentative if at all currently.