Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[caesar]

I find the AG Trio G3 system to be either the audiophiles dream come true or their greatest nighmare. It is a speaker system that (with the iTron) is extremely revealing and transparent to everything. Anything one does to the system is very easily heard. Dificiencies in any feeding electronics will be shown with a spot light. Differences in cables are trival to hear. Even very minute tweaks can be assessed. I mentioned in another thread that I had a friend over and I took 1 furutech cable lifter and placed it under the interconnect from the preamp to the speaker and the difference was obvious. (No other cale lifters in the system). I have not experienced this level of transparency with any other speaker I have owned or heard. I can use all of this information to make very precise changes to improve the sound (not just change it). Most of this has to do with lowering or manipulating the noise floor.

I believe noise floor leads us to why AG chooses solid state over tubes. Most tube gear is noisy. I don't necessarily mean the kind of noise you hear when you get close to the tweeter but some electronics do exhibit this kind of noise as well. I mean the insidious kind of noise that is riding along with the music. This is why the AG preamp runs with batteries -- less noise. With 109 dB efficient speakers we hear everything. To me, the quieter the component the better.

Tubes vs solid state. The old debate that continues. With the Trios I think it comes down to this: Do you like a rounded sound or do you like a more precise sound. With the iTron amp AG has provided the ultimate in precision. It is lighting fast and nothing gets lost in the timing accuracy of the speaker (I say nothing but in fact nothing is exactly perfect. The iTron is as close as I think anything has come)

So here is the dilemma and the nighmare part. The Trios are, in fact, quite difficult to setup to take full advantage of the great amount of precision the iTron offers. The speaker needs to be time aligned with itself and with the other speaker. Then we have to align the space horn at somewhere around 100Hz. All of this is not easy to do. It is easy to get lost and make the speaker sound really, really bad. So what to do? Well, one could just point the speakers pretty much straight ahead or give them a little toe-in but keep the ear out of the tweeter window. The sound is still quite good this way but certainly not precise. If one is going to go this way then choose your favorite SET and enjoy the lushness of it all. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as comparing iTron to SET amps. I do not see how the speakers can sit in the same position and someone can fully hear what each amplifier type has to offer. If the speaker is optimized for the iTron then the SET is going to show deficiencies. If the speaker is setup for the SET then the iTron is going to show deficiencies. I know AG offers the built in switch thing. When I was first considering it I did the demo just like everyone else. But honestly, neither one sounded all that great. (I commented on this in several other posts so if you are interested you can read what I thought of the AG Trio G3 demos there.) So I guess you could say the speakers were not optimized for either. It all comes down to optimization and setup.

I have not heard from Germanboxers in a while. He got the Trios with both the iTron and the passive Crossover. He has the Mayer 300B. If he ever decides to rejoin maybe he can comment on the comparison between the iTron and his 300B amp.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in hearing what the iTron can really do in a Trio system to give Stirling Trayle a call and have him come dial in your speakers.

Great post. But this begs the question of why are so few capable of setting them up? Why not just fly in the German guys to set it at the dealers, at least ? And at all the shows, since the intro of the duo sounded so mediocre at both Axpona and Seattle.

(many dealers are betting that the prospectI’ve customer will be blown away … but not the experienced guys…)

And preferably also have the German guys set up at customers!

 

[exupgh12]

Have you compared tube to iTron? Just comparing tube to solid-state I don't think targets the instant question, as even I think the iTron is a "whole new ballgame" in terms of solid-state on AG.

In short, yes.
I'll stick with my choice of SET\Tub amplifier as the better choice of all amplification I have heard the Trio's.

 

[Uwiik]

Well … This recent disclosure would seem to tilt the balance of your Dichotomy somewhat , for my part your most logical path would seem to be ‘All In’ with the AG Trio G3 Including the bass horns in one swift Cut !

“ When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”

Alexander Graham Bell

I trust @sbnx experience fully, I am sure what I already heard on iTron wasn’t a true representation of what iTron is capable of, I have no doubt in that and I have stated that repeatedly, but in all fairness even the Ongaku was far from ideal setup as well when I auditioned both. In a perfect world I would go with both iTron and passive+Ongaku, but the two requires different setup it’s not as simple as just buying both setup. I have to admit that iTron is the very first SS that really caught my attention but Ongaku is better to my ear. Whether that “better” is enough to warrant me still playing around with tubes and it’s 60 min warm up time or I’d better off chase the iTron setup to my liking is another proposition altogether….I love my Ongaku but I am also logical, so I am still undecided and sleeping this off…in fact I am planning to go to the dealer again today, he is only 45 min away from me, awesome….

 

[Uwiik]

Can iTron be added later? If not, if I faced this decision, even if I thought I would never use iTron personally, I probably would get the iTron version just to help maintain future resale value.

I am pretty sure it can

 

[sbnx]

The trio is flexible. You can get it with iTron and add the passive crossover module at any point. Or you can get it with the passive crossover and add the iTron whenever you might want to.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Interesting. Why viva? Why not audiopax, airtight, or others?

Those other amplifiers might be wonderful as well. I might even like them more than the Aurora. Who knows?

My comment was not intended to be exclusive. All I'm saying is that I know I love the Aurora.

Don had to tie me to the mast to prevent me from ordering a pair of Auroras (22 watts) for the Pendragons.

 

[Kozak170]

Compared both Itron and Ongaku with same preamp, Kondo G70

Now I am sure why you couldn't hear full potential of iTron, the main reason is the high output impedance of G70 for active mode, which is 1k ohms, and the lack of impedance matching leading to rolled off low frequencies. And with that very long interconnects between the iTron and a Preamp that has a high output impedance, the situation will get even worse because the high frequencies will also be rolled off due to the higher capacitance with longer cable runs.
And that's why you heard much better bass from G70+Ongaku compared to G70+iTron on trios.

I have ARC Ref 10 with output impedance of 600 ohms and once paired with an amplifier with an input impedance of 15k ohms and that combination was bass shy. And the ARC recommendation of a minimum 20k load appears to be there for a reason.

 

[Uwiik]

Now I am sure why you couldn't hear full potential of iTron, the main reason is the high output impedance of G70 for active mode, which is 1k ohms, and the lack of impedance matching leading to rolled off low frequencies. And with that very long interconnects between the iTron and a Preamp that has a high output impedance, the situation will get even worse because the high frequencies will also be rolled off due to the higher capacitance with longer cable runs.
And that's why you heard much better bass from G70+Ongaku compared to G70+iTron on trios.

I have ARC Ref 10 with output impedance of 600 ohms and once paired with an amplifier with an input impedance of 15k ohms and that combination was bass shy. And the ARC recommendation of a minimum 20k load appears to be there for a reason.

Your explanation makes a lot of senses! I will discuss this with the dealer.

I did love how it sounded with G70+iTron, I thought it was an endgame sound for me until I heard the G70+Ongaku.

PS: you said you’ve seen the dealer’s setup. I assume you live on this side of the world too?

 

[Kozak170]

Don had to tie me to the mast to prevent me from ordering a pair of Auroras (22 watts) for the Pendragons.

I can imagine that if you are stranded on an island like Jim Smith, and only have one choice for the amp, you will definitely choose Vivas.
Of course, it can be predicted that the rescue boat will not reach that remote island anytime soon to tie you to the boat's mast, so feel free to get those Auroras and enjoy them.

Jim Smith:
"If i were stranded on an island and had to choose one amp for the rest of my life it would be the Vivas"

 

[Kozak170]

Your explanation makes a lot of senses! I will discuss this with the dealer.

I did love how it sounded with G70+iTron, I thought it was an endgame sound for me until I heard the G70+Ongaku.

PS: you said you’ve seen the dealer’s setup. I assume you live on this side of the world too?

No, I wasn't there and I haven't heard the new trios, but I would like this to happen soon. I had already seen photos of the dealer's setup with trios on the internet and saved them, and when you posted new photos of that place, I remembered those photos that the trios were toed-in before you go there for the demo.

 

[christoph]

Don had to tie me to the mast to prevent me from ordering a pair of Auroras (22 watts) for the Pendragons.

Maybe ask Don about the KR Audio Kronzilla DX Monos with 100 wpc.
After only his advice seems to be valuable to you...

 

[Uwiik]

Big update!!

Spent I don’t know how long in the dealer….I opened the can of worm and tried CH L10 + iTron, still prefer G70+iTron and everyone else in the room (4 other people). They can make more money if I got hooked to CH L10 but they told me their honest opinion that G70 beat the CH L10 (in this particular setup mind you), so it’s a valid opinion.



Then I insisted that I want to spend the time to re layout and re set the whole G3 setup, moved the basshorns vertically and put these beside the Trio (just like how Todd had it setup), setup the azimuth, tweeter plane, listening distance and everything else, took a few hours to do just that.



Just like I expected suddenly everything sounded at least 50% better, tweeter is much more controlled and bass is way beter with both CH L10 + iTron and G70 + iTron, but again me and everyone else still prefer G70 + iTron for wider staging, much more controlled bass, way better sound separations and much much better high.



Then we installed the G70 + Ongaku again, still with crazy salad of wires, very very long RCA interconnect, but using Siltech Double Crown power cable….. we were all in heaven…We tested audiophile recording, mediocre recording, trance music, Ed Sheeran, even Norah Jones’ “Come Away With Me” which is one of the most crapiest recording ever constantly bleeding my ears were very acceptable, we were all in heaven doesn’t matter about the quality of the recording. Even the dealer said that this is the best sound he ever heard and he can actually make much more money if he said otherwise. Me myself knew that this is it, this is my endgame system and I fell in love all over again with my Ongaku….



I have made my decision, no iTron, yes to basshorns in one swift purchase, G70 + Ongaku, Taiko, Siltech Double Crown + Triple crown throughout, Torus AVR. Now I just need to know what the number comes to, maybe I can swing it this year, maybe I have to wait a bit more, but I don’t think I will change my mind again. I have made it clear to my wife that she has to settle with Boston GP, no Steinway this year, she is lucky she is not getting Casio keyboard.

Thanks for all positive comments and I don’t want to hijack @sbnx thread any further unless we can put this as a sticky for official Trio G3 thread. This is awesome and I am beyond happy finally finding my end game. If only this happened sooner before I spent $500.000 plus on constantly changing and replacing gears….it was damn ridiculous…

 

[LL21]

Congrats!!! That is super exciting. I had not seen that configuration of the bass horns before...fascinating!

 

[adyc]

Big update!!

Spent I don’t know how long in the dealer….I opened the can of worm and tried CH L10 + iTron, still prefer G70+iTron and everyone else in the room (4 other people). They can make more money if I got hooked to CH L10 but they told me their honest opinion that G70 beat the CH L10 (in this particular setup mind you), so it’s a valid opinion.
View attachment 116790
View attachment 116795

Then I insisted that I want to spend the time to re layout and re set the whole G3 setup, moved the basshorns vertically and put these beside the Trio (just like how Todd had it setup), setup the azimuth, tweeter plane, listening distance and everything else, took a few hours to do just that.

View attachment 116791

Just like I expected suddenly everything sounded at least 50% better, tweeter is much more controlled and bass is way beter with both CH L10 + iTron and G70 + iTron, but again me and everyone else still prefer G70 + iTron for wider staging, much more controlled bass, way better sound separations and much much better high.

View attachment 116792

Then we installed the G70 + Ongaku again, still with crazy salad of wires, very very long RCA interconnect, but using Siltech Double Crown power cable….. we were all in heaven…We tested audiophile recording, mediocre recording, trance music, even Ed Sheeran, we were all in heaven doesn’t matter about the quality of the recording. Even the dealer said that this is the best sound he ever heard and he can actually make much more money if he said otherwise. Me myself knew that this is it, this is my endgame system and I fell in love all over again with my Ongaku….

View attachment 116794

I have made my decision, no iTron, yes to basshorns in one swift purchase, G70 + Ongaku, Taiko, Siltech Double Crown + Triple crown throughout, Torus AVR. Now I just need to know what the number comes to, maybe I can swing it this year, maybe I have to wait a bit more, but I don’t think I will change my mind again. I have made it clear to my wife that she has to settle with Boston GP, no Steinway this year, she is lucky she is not getting Casio keyboard.

Thanks for all positive comments and I don’t want to hijack @sbnx thread any further unless we can put this as a sticky for official Trio G3 thread. This is awesome and I am beyond happy finally finding my end game. If only this happened sooner before I spent $500.000 plus on constantly changing and replacing gears….it was damn ridiculous…

Are you going to get this pair or new pair?

 

[bonzo75]

Big update!!

This is great news.

May I now mention two comments from Oct 2021, on your speakers for Ongaku thread, when you were considering the duos and the WVL berlin and asking about bass.

The trios with bass horns are quite superior to all the speakers you mentioned. The duo is a joke

Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Dear Uwiik, Best wishes for the health of your loved ones! Other than audio shows, I can recall hearing Kondo amplification only once with Acapella horns. Very enjoyable, indeed.

www.whatsbestforum.com

The bass of AG especially duo is inferior without the bass horn. It is not that WVL Berlin bass is anything special. These are totally different in terms of size and price so you are looking at very different speakers. I have heard the London and Chicago, not the Berlin. But the Berlin is a cone boxed bass with a horn loaded midrange.

Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Dear Uwiik, Best wishes for the health of your loved ones! Other than audio shows, I can recall hearing Kondo amplification only once with Acapella horns. Very enjoyable, indeed.

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Uwiik]

Congrats!!! That is super exciting. I had not seen that configuration of the bass horns before...fascinating!

I love that basshorns setup, very very nice without overwhelming

 

[Uwiik]

Are you going to get this pair or new pair?

This pair if the dealer willing to take off the iTron. I definitely not getting the iTron.

 

[Uwiik]

Thank

This is great news.

May I now mention two comments from Oct 2021, on your speakers for Ongaku thread, when you were considering the duos and the WVL berlin and asking about bass.

The trios with bass horns are quite superior to all the speakers you mentioned. The duo is a joke

Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Dear Uwiik, Best wishes for the health of your loved ones! Other than audio shows, I can recall hearing Kondo amplification only once with Acapella horns. Very enjoyable, indeed.

www.whatsbestforum.com

The bass of AG especially duo is inferior without the bass horn. It is not that WVL Berlin bass is anything special. These are totally different in terms of size and price so you are looking at very different speakers. I have heard the London and Chicago, not the Berlin. But the Berlin is a cone boxed bass with a horn loaded midrange.

Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

Dear Uwiik, Best wishes for the health of your loved ones! Other than audio shows, I can recall hearing Kondo amplification only once with Acapella horns. Very enjoyable, indeed.

www.whatsbestforum.com

Thanks for the best wishes for my loved ones. My mom passed away in pain on August 30th 2022, that’s why I disappeared from this forum for quite some times.

Berlin and Trio G3 is totally different league, bit off course WVL Berlin is less than half the price and I have to say it sounded sublime for the price, much better than other speaker in that price range and I have tried quite a few. To be fair, the WVL was underdriven by my Ongaku.

 

[christoph]

Are you going to get this pair or new pair?

I just love the orange horns

 

[spiritofmusic]

Its ok to place the Basshorns "upside down"?