Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Uwiik]

I think the Trio G3s are amazing. But it doesn't surprise me at all that you prefer the Ongaku. This is strictly very personal preference but I've always been baffled why the AG executives prefer solid-state electronics over SET on their tweeter horns and midrange horns.

A friend once came close to buying AG loudspeakers and I said I would not endorse the purchase unless he promised to buy Viva Auroras or lower power SET amplifiers. If I had Trio G3s I would be trying very pure, very low power SET amplifiers, probably starting with Thomas Mayer.

AG on solid-state on an all-wood floor? I get a headache just thinking about it. If I remember correctly the AG factory demo room floor is wall-to-wall carpet.

PS: Outdated design? If you like the sound of a tube amplifier who cares if it was designed in the Middle Ages?

It was so vastly better I didn’t think that was a mere personal preference…I came to the showroom with an open mind and even a serious intention to trade in my tube gears for ss gears in favor of simplicity but here I am….

Hahaha, yes I mentioned that for like a million times already but he is stubborn on that floor….up to him I guess…

 

[Uwiik]

That’s great to hear your thoughts. Ongaku with G3 and bass horn strikes me completely as an end game move. I’m not really surprised that you found Ongaku is the better amp though I see how it would have been easier if it was in any way closer competition for you… some find solid state works fine for them with horns but I’ve only found complete magic for horns with SET. Patience is good, sounds worthwhile working towards the big move. Here’s hoping you end up with it all.

Thanks for the best wishes…and yes I think Trio G3 should be on top of the list for anyone looking for high end horns and can afford it, it’s an end game speaker IMO. I wish it can be that simple and apparently it’s not a close call at all.

 

[Uwiik]

Congrats. Sounds like you know what you ultimately want. Now its about how to get there. The Ongaku is legendary it seems for good reason. No piece is perfect, but it comes with its own magic when in the right system...this one included it seems.

Are you able to spring for the main horns and deal with temporary cables/bass a year or so?

We are still in very preliminary talks. I know he’s got an old Meridian subwoofer I can borrow but I need to see the final number first….he might even have to order in a new set if I want to go with non Itron.

 

[Uwiik]

BTW, how did the treble sound on the Ongaku? My limited time with the new AG 3 actually honed in on the treble. The rest was exemplary in its own way, and I kind of mentally signed off on its flagship qualities in many of those areas. But the treble was a hiccup...one which I took to be manageable (just as you did)...but I was also not buying.

I do feel that the treble is probably super super finicky about setup and extremely sensitive to 'everything'...but ultimately very very good when done right. But I cannot say since we did not have that kind of time. Since you are buying, you may wish to double check that and just check that box.

It’s pretty weird, I actually think that the high could be a bit more aggressive on the Ongaku but we were using totally inappropriate cable for the speaker and interconnect, running very long rca, we even had to use cheap Neutrik Y splitter, due to the awkward position none of the proper speakers/IC cables that we have can be used. Still alot more better than on Itron.

 

[LL21]

It’s pretty weird, I actually think that the high could be a bit more aggressive on the Ongaku but we were using totally inappropriate cable for the speaker and interconnect, we even had to use cheap Neutrik Y splitter, due to the awkward position none of the proper speakers/IC cables that we have can be used.

Good to know...my distinct sense was this speaker will pick up EVERYTHING. So given what you have just said, I would imagine you were hearing all of these elements. Regarding aggressive and Ongaku, somehow I cannot believe that this anything more than the combination picking something else up in the setup which was clearly not ideal.

While a challenging puzzle, it is clearly an end-game one so that is fun and undoubtedly well worth it!

 

[Uwiik]

Good to know...my distinct sense was this speaker will pick up EVERYTHING. So given what you have just said, I would imagine you were hearing all of these elements. Regarding aggressive and Ongaku, somehow I cannot believe that this anything more than the combination picking something else up in the setup which was clearly not ideal.

While a challenging puzzle, it is clearly an end-game one so that is fun and undoubtedly well worth it!

The dealer just returned Kondo G1000 to Japan because it keeps on playing radio channel on the tweeter.

I am 100% sure there will be at least 30% further improvements when there are proper wires on the Ongaku setup. Like I said, even with really crazy salad of whatever wire available it still sounded better on everything than on Itron.

 

[LL21]

The dealer just returned Kondo G1000 to Japan because it keeps on playing radio channel on the tweeter.

I am 100% sure there will be at least 30% further improvements when there are proper wires on the Ongaku setup. Like I said, even with really crazy salad of whatever wire available it still sounded better on everything than on Itron.

I can sense this plan coming together...once you know what you want, its a matter of how to get there...

 

[exupgh12]

I've spent numerous hours listening to the AG Trio, which consists of four basshorns, at a close friend's home. He relies on SET amplifiers to power his system. One day, our curiosity got the best of us, and we decided to experiment with different amplifiers. We tested the MBL 9008 (solid-state) and the Kora (solid-state and tube). Not surprisingly, the SET amplifiers came out on top, offering the best performance. However, the Kora amplifiers were also quite impressive, delivering about 90% of the SET's quality, while the MBL amplifiers lagged behind.

After listening to several AG Trio demos, I couldn't help but wonder why AG insists on demonstrating the trio with solid-state amplifiers. It seems like a missed opportunity to fully showcase its potential.

 

[Hear Here]

I've spent numerous hours listening to the AG Trio, which consists of four basshorns, at a close friend's home. He relies on SET amplifiers to power his system. One day, our curiosity got the best of us, and we decided to experiment with different amplifiers. We tested the MBL 9008 (solid-state) and the Kora (solid-state and tube). Not surprisingly, the SET amplifiers came out on top, offering the best performance. However, the Kora amplifiers were also quite impressive, delivering about 90% of the SET's quality, while the MBL amplifiers lagged behind.

After listening to several AG Trio demos, I couldn't help but wonder why AG insists on demonstrating the trio with solid-state amplifiers. It seems like a missed opportunity to fully showcase its potential.

Interesting as I moved away from tube amps for a number of reasons 3 years ago after 17 year with SETs powering my Uno or Duo systems. I started with the proviso that any solid state amp would have to equal or surpass the enjoyment factor of the SETs, although I didn't need the ss amp to mimic or sound like tubes, ie I just wanted maximum musical enjoyment without worrying about what was feeding the speakers.

I bought or borrowed 12 amps of Class A, AB and D, expecting the As (Accuphase, Sugden, etc) to be my first choice,. ABs from the likes of Mark Levinson, GamuT and Ds from Devialet, NAD. Other brands included Lyngdorf, Bakoon, Benchmark, Valvet, etc. All these amps were highly recommended and used by other AG owners on various forums.

To my surprise, I found a Class D to be an excellent match for Avantgarde, with the advantages of relative low purchase price (allowing me to upgrade to latest Duos), low maintenance, very high SN ratio and negligible running costs. I chose the leading Class D technology and avoided the cobbled-together offerings one finds on Ebay, etc with Eval board based Purifi Eigentakt amps. I’m very pleased with my Class D amplification. The GamuT came a close second, let down only by its bad manners when turned on or off! I really wanted to like the beautifully executed Accuphase but it turned out just a little too “polite”. The Benchmark was by far the biggest disappointment, despite rave comments from a Trio owner.

The AG website used to feature a Gallery section where owners of AG speakers could upload photos and details of their systems. It was interesting that, despite the oft-claimed SET / horn combination being mage in heaven, more users had ss amps than tubes.

 

[bonzo75]

Very well said

since you have Kondo, please visit Rhapsody Dallas to hear a full Kondo system with Diesis, brilliant. You can also visit a city 3 hours from Rome to listen to full Kondo with Sigma MAAT Vector, a high sensitive 102db 8 ohm cone speaker. And ultimate audio in Portugal has Kondo with trios and the Lampi horizon, analog to be set up, I have not heard this one yet but will do once they get analog in.

 

[sbnx]

I find the AG Trio G3 system to be either the audiophiles dream come true or their greatest nighmare. It is a speaker system that (with the iTron) is extremely revealing and transparent to everything. Anything one does to the system is very easily heard. Dificiencies in any feeding electronics will be shown with a spot light. Differences in cables are trival to hear. Even very minute tweaks can be assessed. I mentioned in another thread that I had a friend over and I took 1 furutech cable lifter and placed it under the interconnect from the preamp to the speaker and the difference was obvious. (No other cale lifters in the system). I have not experienced this level of transparency with any other speaker I have owned or heard. I can use all of this information to make very precise changes to improve the sound (not just change it). Most of this has to do with lowering or manipulating the noise floor.

I believe noise floor leads us to why AG chooses solid state over tubes. Most tube gear is noisy. I don't necessarily mean the kind of noise you hear when you get close to the tweeter but some electronics do exhibit this kind of noise as well. I mean the insidious kind of noise that is riding along with the music. This is why the AG preamp runs with batteries -- less noise. With 109 dB efficient speakers we hear everything. To me, the quieter the component the better.

Tubes vs solid state. The old debate that continues. With the Trios I think it comes down to this: Do you like a rounded sound or do you like a more precise sound. With the iTron amp AG has provided the ultimate in precision. It is lighting fast and nothing gets lost in the timing accuracy of the speaker (I say nothing but in fact nothing is exactly perfect. The iTron is as close as I think anything has come)

So here is the dilemma and the nighmare part. The Trios are, in fact, quite difficult to setup to take full advantage of the great amount of precision the iTron offers. The speaker needs to be time aligned with itself and with the other speaker. Then we have to align the space horn at somewhere around 100Hz. All of this is not easy to do. It is easy to get lost and make the speaker sound really, really bad. So what to do? Well, one could just point the speakers pretty much straight ahead or give them a little toe-in but keep the ear out of the tweeter window. The sound is still quite good this way but certainly not precise. If one is going to go this way then choose your favorite SET and enjoy the lushness of it all. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as comparing iTron to SET amps. I do not see how the speakers can sit in the same position and someone can fully hear what each amplifier type has to offer. If the speaker is optimized for the iTron then the SET is going to show deficiencies. If the speaker is setup for the SET then the iTron is going to show deficiencies. I know AG offers the built in switch thing. When I was first considering it I did the demo just like everyone else. But honestly, neither one sounded all that great. (I commented on this in several other posts so if you are interested you can read what I thought of the AG Trio G3 demos there.) So I guess you could say the speakers were not optimized for either. It all comes down to optimization and setup.

I have not heard from Germanboxers in a while. He got the Trios with both the iTron and the passive Crossover. He has the Mayer 300B. If he ever decides to rejoin maybe he can comment on the comparison between the iTron and his 300B amp.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in hearing what the iTron can really do in a Trio system to give Stirling Trayle a call and have him come dial in your speakers.

 

[Kozak170]

It was so vastly better I didn’t think that was a mere personal preference…I came to the showroom with an open mind and even a serious intention to trade in my tube gears for ss gears in favor of simplicity but here I am….

Hahaha, yes I mentioned that for like a million times already but he is stubborn on that floor….up to him I guess…

For me It is very surprising that Roy's views on the comparison of Ongaku and iTron on Trio G3 were completely opposite to yours!
Did you compare iTron and Ongaku with the same Preamp? And are you sure that the Preamp was matched with the iTron in terms of impedance matching? And its output impedance is not too high for iTron? Since the input impedance of the iTron is only 10k ohms, And Roy had reviewed iTron with CH Preamp, which output impedance is below 100 ohms.

These are Roy's comments after he heard Trio G3 with Kondo Ongaku and Heritage M7 Preamp at the show in Portugal and compared it with iTron..

"Having waxed lyrical about the qualities of the active Trios, it was fascinating to hear just how musically coherent, engaging and entertaining they could be, driven passively with the Kondo electronics. Sure, the system didn’t have the ‘you are there’ presence, immediacy and unfettered dynamics of the active rig, but it was wonderfully relaxed, responsive and fluid. Playing records or files, phrasing and musical shape were first class. Tonality, integration and spatial coherence were all excellent and if the slightly rounded dynamics and roseate shadings of the Kondo were apparent, they certainly didn’t intrude"

"Oh, you’ve got an Ongaku (or some other, fabled SET)? I don’t care: the iTron will kill pretty much any standalone amplifier – and it will do it at a fraction of the price! It’s faster, more accurate, more dynamic, more precise and with far more natural timing, presence and immediacy than any voltage amplifier at anywhere even close to its price"

 

[caesar]

Avantgarde Trios, way back before the latest updated version:

Some of you may remember the San Francisco Stereophile Home Entertainment Show in 2003. If so, you may recall the extraordinary and never-again-equaled response that happened in our (Avantgarde-USA, Balanced Audio Technology, Cardas Audio, Running Springs, etc.) demo room. Srajan Ebaen – 6moons.com – wrote about it, as well as Robert Harley in TAS, and others.

As always at the shows where we exhibited, I voiced that system to the room. The system was bi-amplified. Unfortunately, we had a couple of less-than-pleasant peaks in the boundary-dependent-region (in this case, below 100 Hz - the Avantgarde Trio Basshorn’s operating area). Expecting some difficulties, I had brought my Rives PARC (Parametric Adaptive Room Compensation), which was designed to solely address that region. When I mentioned to Richard Rives Bird that I was bringing it to the show, he offered to come by our room, and tweak it with his computer program. True to his word, when I let him know I wanted him to drop by, he was nice enough to come by and run the program.

Richard had a ton of work to do throughout the show. He didn’t cut short his time, but he based his adjustments on near-perfect measurements. Satisfied with the results, he went on to other projects waiting at the show.

There was no question that the response was very flat now. Technically, it was superb. The result of Richard's correction was very flat response. Unfortunately, after I listened later, my response to the music was similar. Flat.

I felt that the system was missing a bit of musical involvement. The emotional hook was not quite there.

I should mention that we were only using the PARC in the line from the BAT preamp to the amps driving the BASSHORNS. The amps driving the TRIOS were direct from the preamp.

So, I spent another couple of hours building on what Richard had done (LOL – Richard might have had a different description). I didn’t change the frequency cuts to the peaks that he introduced, but I did slightly adjust their “q” (width) and the level of their amplitude.

When I was satisfied, I was feeling good about the sound – the music was engaging at all levels and with all genres. I privately wondered if the subsequent measurements would have been as precise. My guess was — probably not.

Here’s the cool thing – We got standing applause at the end of every demo for three days – an almost-unheard-of response to a show demo! IMO – listeners weren’t responding to the technical aspects of the sound; they were releasing emotions stimulated by the musical experience.

FWIW – I have never since seen such response from show attendees. It was unique in my long experience in the industry. In addition to the original mention, Robert Harley mentioned it in TAS again “The same system at a San Francisco show elicited a standing ovation with wild applause at the conclusion of Pink Floyd’s The Wall—the only instance of such a reaction to a show demo in memory." http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...lifier-and-rex-ii-monoblock-power-amplifiers/

That is definitely a great achievement on your end. But the sad thing is that other than Valin reviewing previous generation Avantgardes, I don't think their magazine has reviewed any horn speakers in the last 20 years. I guess they do know their readers - guys who like an analytical and hifi sound. Definitely a missed opportunity to make the hobby better.

 

[caesar]

I think I need to clarify my thoughts and observations on aggressiveness.

The Trio's are certainly dynamic. They are by far the most dynamic speaker I have ever owned and by a mile. They excel at both micro and macro dynamics. The subtle nuance and shading I can hear is stunning. I want to make sure we don't confuse dynamics and aggressiveness. ...

Hi Sbnx,
I also have never experienced any speaker that comes close to Avantgarde Trio dynamics.

It's not like there are no other speakers with similar efficiency. Do you happen to know why that is or Avantgarde may be doing?

 

[caesar]

For me It is very surprising that Roy's views on the comparison of Ongaku and iTron on Trio G3 were completely opposite to yours!
Did you compare iTron and Ongaku with the same Preamp? And are you sure that the Preamp was matched with the iTron in terms of impedance matching? And its output impedance is not too high for iTron? Since the input impedance of the iTron is only 10k ohms, And Roy had reviewed iTron with CH Preamp, which output impedance is below 100 ohms.

These are Roy's comments after he heard Trio G3 with Kondo Ongaku and Heritage M7 Preamp at the show in Portugal and compared it with iTron..

"Having waxed lyrical about the qualities of the active Trios, it was fascinating to hear just how musically coherent, engaging and entertaining they could be, driven passively with the Kondo electronics. Sure, the system didn’t have the ‘you are there’ presence, immediacy and unfettered dynamics of the active rig, but it was wonderfully relaxed, responsive and fluid. Playing records or files, phrasing and musical shape were first class. Tonality, integration and spatial coherence were all excellent and if the slightly rounded dynamics and roseate shadings of the Kondo were apparent, they certainly didn’t intrude"

"Oh, you’ve got an Ongaku (or some other, fabled SET)? I don’t care: the iTron will kill pretty much any standalone amplifier – and it will do it at a fraction of the price! It’s faster, more accurate, more dynamic, more precise and with far more natural timing, presence and immediacy than any voltage amplifier at anywhere even close to its price"

I think Roy missed an opportunity to come across as a Trusted Advisor by comparing and contrasting the amps with intellectual honesty.

Instead he pushed his taste as superior, without sharing the trade-offs and letting his readers pursue their subjective journey - be it SET, Push pull, or Solid State.

 

[caesar]

Lloyd, did those Cessaro Liszts horns at Purity Audio in N. London that we both heard nearly a decade ago, not give you a real taste? I know there were room integration issues (room too small for spkrs size), but to this day that demo remains in my top five horn demos, and in some ways the most impressive.

Hi Spirit,
What's your take on the Cessaros showing so impressively?

 

[adyc]

Hi Sbnx,
I also have never experienced any speaker that comes close to Avantgarde Trio dynamics.

Not with your MBL 101E?

 

[caesar]

Not with your MBL 101E?

My bi-amped 101s are pretty impressive dynamically. They definitely sound ALIVE. But the Trio is in another league.

The bi-amped MBL Extremes come close (and also do a better job of carving out the recorded acoustic in 3D), but still don't match the Trio... maybe 85-90 percent of Trio... However, I am experientially impoverished to other top models of horns like Cessaro, Vox Olympians, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they came close to the Trio also...

 

[Uwiik]

since you have Kondo, please visit Rhapsody Dallas to hear a full Kondo system with Diesis, brilliant. You can also visit a city 3 hours from Rome to listen to full Kondo with Sigma MAAT Vector, a high sensitive 102db 8 ohm cone speaker. And ultimate audio in Portugal has Kondo with trios and the Lampi horizon, analog to be set up, I have not heard this one yet but will do once they get analog in.

I am pretty much set on G3 of I were to change speaker. I loved my WVL Berlin but it’s not end game for me while I can see G3 as an endgame for me, don’t wanna consider anything else as I need to be able to say “enough” in this money pit hobby of ours. I live in South East Asia, so don’t have the privilege of easy traveling to that side of the world and funny enough after the Covid world traveling break I just lost all my desire to travel, I used to fly to the west (US/CAN) twice of three times a year, after Covid I only did one trip and not looking forward for the next trip right now….

 

[Uwiik]

I find the AG Trio G3 system to be either the audiophiles dream come true or their greatest nighmare. It is a speaker system that (with the iTron) is extremely revealing and transparent to everything. Anything one does to the system is very easily heard. Dificiencies in any feeding electronics will be shown with a spot light. Differences in cables are trival to hear. Even very minute tweaks can be assessed. I mentioned in another thread that I had a friend over and I took 1 furutech cable lifter and placed it under the interconnect from the preamp to the speaker and the difference was obvious. (No other cale lifters in the system). I have not experienced this level of transparency with any other speaker I have owned or heard. I can use all of this information to make very precise changes to improve the sound (not just change it). Most of this has to do with lowering or manipulating the noise floor.

I believe noise floor leads us to why AG chooses solid state over tubes. Most tube gear is noisy. I don't necessarily mean the kind of noise you hear when you get close to the tweeter but some electronics do exhibit this kind of noise as well. I mean the insidious kind of noise that is riding along with the music. This is why the AG preamp runs with batteries -- less noise. With 109 dB efficient speakers we hear everything. To me, the quieter the component the better.

Tubes vs solid state. The old debate that continues. With the Trios I think it comes down to this: Do you like a rounded sound or do you like a more precise sound. With the iTron amp AG has provided the ultimate in precision. It is lighting fast and nothing gets lost in the timing accuracy of the speaker (I say nothing but in fact nothing is exactly perfect. The iTron is as close as I think anything has come)

So here is the dilemma and the nighmare part. The Trios are, in fact, quite difficult to setup to take full advantage of the great amount of precision the iTron offers. The speaker needs to be time aligned with itself and with the other speaker. Then we have to align the space horn at somewhere around 100Hz. All of this is not easy to do. It is easy to get lost and make the speaker sound really, really bad. So what to do? Well, one could just point the speakers pretty much straight ahead or give them a little toe-in but keep the ear out of the tweeter window. The sound is still quite good this way but certainly not precise. If one is going to go this way then choose your favorite SET and enjoy the lushness of it all. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as comparing iTron to SET amps. I do not see how the speakers can sit in the same position and someone can fully hear what each amplifier type has to offer. If the speaker is optimized for the iTron then the SET is going to show deficiencies. If the speaker is setup for the SET then the iTron is going to show deficiencies. I know AG offers the built in switch thing. When I was first considering it I did the demo just like everyone else. But honestly, neither one sounded all that great. (I commented on this in several other posts so if you are interested you can read what I thought of the AG Trio G3 demos there.) So I guess you could say the speakers were not optimized for either. It all comes down to optimization and setup.

I have not heard from Germanboxers in a while. He got the Trios with both the iTron and the passive Crossover. He has the Mayer 300B. If he ever decides to rejoin maybe he can comment on the comparison between the iTron and his 300B amp.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in hearing what the iTron can really do in a Trio system to give Stirling Trayle a call and have him come dial in your speakers.

Best view on the whole issue so far. Excellent points!!!