Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[LL21]

I have to say that despite not having found a horn experience where I could say it inspired me to want to learn more about horns, I have gained that interest here on this forum. Hence why I read a lot about Destination Audio, some of the interesting Japanese work, DDK and some of the all-out custom/DIY work based on time-tested designs. In person, I have heard Cessaros including at Audio Exotics in Hong Kong, a pair of horns in Netherlands being driven by Zanden monos, Avantgarde Duos and a couple of others that did not make much of an impression on me.

That was until recently. I have now heard the new Avantgarde Trios (with dual bass horns) but it was not iTron, but passive driven by Emm MTRX. Running on way to airport. Stopped by. Not massively in-depth...but initial impressions...very very impressive and perhaps for the first time, I thought there is something here with some of the quite special qualities I heard that day.

- Clearly an alacrity and dynamic shading that was very very exacting without any sense of stridency whatsoever
- An ability to fill a space that was sizeable (40+ feet by 30-35 feet by 11 feet) and sounding effortless...just no sense of strain
- That said, despite the micro shading and macro dynamic swing capability, i think I found here a very good example of the difference between dexterity and suppleness. The musical had remarkable dexterity to show all the micronuances and massive swings. At the same time, it came across in quite a hardened way (not strident by one iota)...but the sound felt 'hard'...like it was hitting you.

Whereas some systems even at high volumes, its just floating there all around you and in front of you. Not hardened and hitting you.

HOWEVER, my gut immediately sensed these are exacting speakers, utterly sensitive to micro set up details, equipment, walls, boundaries...and amplification. I could not help but think that done right, you COULD create a very very supple sound rather than one that was simply highly dextrous. My bet would have gone to amplification...great great SET amps...just felt I would have wanted to try something else other than the big MTRX monos with these speakers.

Could I see myself with horns someday? Possibly. Definitely would need to take a lot more time than i have now to get to know them. 20 min every 24 hours on WBF is about all I manage! So its been great to read and learn.

 

[LL21]

Its the Indian not the arrow for sure. I would love to hear a great horn system set up correctly. The closest I came was the living voice with subs once and that was very good but not quite there. It was a show afterall. I do understand why people feel the way they do about some of the horn systems they have heard. I firmly believe there is no partial way with those speakers , they are or they aren't set up right. I look foward to hearing the right stuff even though I won't be buying it. COngrats on your journey and your work to do it right!!

I think our posts just crossed while I was writing...yes, agree.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have to say that despite not having found a horn experience where I could say it inspired me to want to learn more about horns, I have gained that interest here on this forum. Hence why I read a lot about Destination Audio, some of the interesting Japanese work, DDK and some of the all-out custom/DIY work based on time-tested designs. In person, I have heard Cessaros including at Audio Exotics in Hong Kong, a pair of horns in Netherlands being driven by Zanden monos, Avantgarde Duos and a couple of others that did not make much of an impression on me.

That was until recently. I have now heard the new Avantgarde Trios (with dual bass horns) but it was not iTron, but passive driven by Emm MTRX. Running on way to airport. Stopped by. Not massively in-depth...but initial impressions...very very impressive and perhaps for the first time, I thought there is something here with some of the quite special qualities I heard that day.

- Clearly an alacrity and dynamic shading that was very very exacting without any sense of stridency whatsoever
- An ability to fill a space that was sizeable (40+ feet by 30-35 feet by 11 feet) and sounding effortless...just no sense of strain
- That said, despite the micro shading and macro dynamic swing capability, i think I found here a very good example of the difference between dexterity and suppleness. The musical had remarkable dexterity to show all the micronuances and massive swings. At the same time, it came across in quite a hardened way (not strident by one iota)...but the sound felt 'hard'...like it was hitting you.

Whereas some systems even at high volumes, its just floating there all around you and in front of you. Not hardened and hitting you.

HOWEVER, my gut immediately sensed these are exacting speakers, utterly sensitive to micro set up details, equipment, walls, boundaries...and amplification. I could not help but think that done right, you COULD create a very very supple sound rather than one that was simply highly dextrous. My bet would have gone to amplification...great great SET amps...just felt I would have wanted to try something else other than the big MTRX monos with these speakers.

Could I see myself with horns someday? Possibly. Definitely would need to take a lot more time than i have now to get to know them. 20 min every 24 hours on WBF is about all I manage! So its been great to read and learn.

Lloyd, did those Cessaro Liszts horns at Purity Audio in N. London that we both heard nearly a decade ago, not give you a real taste? I know there were room integration issues (room too small for spkrs size), but to this day that demo remains in my top five horn demos, and in some ways the most impressive.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd, did those Cessaro Liszts horns at Purity Audio in N. London that we both heard nearly a decade ago, not give you a real taste? I know there were room integration issues (room too small for spkrs size), but to this day that demo remains in my top five horn demos, and in some ways the most impressive.

Yes, that was one of the times I have heard the Cessaros.

 

[Jim Smith]

Avantgarde Trios, way back before the latest updated version:

Some of you may remember the San Francisco Stereophile Home Entertainment Show in 2003. If so, you may recall the extraordinary and never-again-equaled response that happened in our (Avantgarde-USA, Balanced Audio Technology, Cardas Audio, Running Springs, etc.) demo room. Srajan Ebaen – 6moons.com – wrote about it, as well as Robert Harley in TAS, and others.

As always at the shows where we exhibited, I voiced that system to the room. The system was bi-amplified. Unfortunately, we had a couple of less-than-pleasant peaks in the boundary-dependent-region (in this case, below 100 Hz - the Avantgarde Trio Basshorn’s operating area). Expecting some difficulties, I had brought my Rives PARC (Parametric Adaptive Room Compensation), which was designed to solely address that region. When I mentioned to Richard Rives Bird that I was bringing it to the show, he offered to come by our room, and tweak it with his computer program. True to his word, when I let him know I wanted him to drop by, he was nice enough to come by and run the program.

Richard had a ton of work to do throughout the show. He didn’t cut short his time, but he based his adjustments on near-perfect measurements. Satisfied with the results, he went on to other projects waiting at the show.

There was no question that the response was very flat now. Technically, it was superb. The result of Richard's correction was very flat response. Unfortunately, after I listened later, my response to the music was similar. Flat.

I felt that the system was missing a bit of musical involvement. The emotional hook was not quite there.

I should mention that we were only using the PARC in the line from the BAT preamp to the amps driving the BASSHORNS. The amps driving the TRIOS were direct from the preamp.

So, I spent another couple of hours building on what Richard had done (LOL – Richard might have had a different description). I didn’t change the frequency cuts to the peaks that he introduced, but I did slightly adjust their “q” (width) and the level of their amplitude.

When I was satisfied, I was feeling good about the sound – the music was engaging at all levels and with all genres. I privately wondered if the subsequent measurements would have been as precise. My guess was — probably not.

Here’s the cool thing – We got standing applause at the end of every demo for three days – an almost-unheard-of response to a show demo! IMO – listeners weren’t responding to the technical aspects of the sound; they were releasing emotions stimulated by the musical experience.

FWIW – I have never since seen such response from show attendees. It was unique in my long experience in the industry. In addition to the original mention, Robert Harley mentioned it in TAS again “The same system at a San Francisco show elicited a standing ovation with wild applause at the conclusion of Pink Floyd’s The Wall—the only instance of such a reaction to a show demo in memory." http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...lifier-and-rex-ii-monoblock-power-amplifiers/

Unfortunately, I think it might be too simple for an installer of digital room correction systems to rely on the measurements. And indeed, there are systems that have remote tuning. Some even offer automated adjustments. But who determines how the system speaks to you, in your room? A technician onsite MAY have the requisite blend of science and art skills to do it, but not if he thinks the measurements are the cure.

 

[sbnx]

Jim, Thanks for posting. Agree 100%. I used to believe measurements could do it. But not any more. At most measurements can serve as a rough guide helping find the general location of the seat and the general area where the speakers will work in the room. After that it is all ear.

 

[microstrip]

Jim, Thanks for posting. Agree 100%. I used to believe measurements could do it. But not any more. At most measurements can serve as a rough guide helping find the general location of the seat and the general area where the speakers will work in the room. After that it is all ear.

IMO in stereo measurements are needed to diagnose situations and help tuning a system. But we can't expect them to be able to be used with an audio cookbook to tune our systems. The final adjustment (or maladjustment ) must be carried listening to a few reference recordings.

 

[Chop]

Here's a question for Todd, or anyone else here.
I've just installed my Trios in a new room. Although IMO the room is beautiful looking the shape of the room ceiling means set up is problematic.
(NB the photos are the room as a work in progress. no pictures or drapes yet, cables not raised, you can't see the subs which are in the corners as per REL's recommendation. Please don't tell me what else I should be doing to the system, its WIP. I wanted music asap.) Oh, the room is 27' x 21' x 14' at the top of the apex.

My initial speaker set up imaged OK but could be better. Two days later and a lot of careful re positioning they were nearly there and the imaging is great... When I then tweaked the positioning & moved them closer together the sound warmed up... so far so good. Then I noticed they weren't quite at the same vertical angle.

When I got the speakers perfectly vertical the emotional involvement reappeared. A good example would be Van's voice on Veedon Fleece, he went from singing the words to sounding like he was interested!
Here's the question: Given that the tweeters are round why does this happen when the speakers are perfectly vertical? Or do you think I inadvertently changed something else?

 

[Blue58]

If 1 of your tweeters is out by 1dg on the vertical and you listen at 5m, assuming your ear is level with the centre of the tweeter, the difference between the tweeter sound centre at your ear is 87mm.

This would create some phase issues I guess.

Positioning is crucial and then fine tune by ear.

 

[exupgh12]

Here's a question for Todd, or anyone else here.
I've just installed my Trios in a new room. Although IMO the room is beautiful looking the shape of the room ceiling means set up is problematic.
(NB the photos are the room as a work in progress. no pictures or drapes yet, cables not raised, you can't see the subs which are in the corners as per REL's recommendation. Please don't tell me what else I should be doing to the system, its WIP. I wanted music asap.) Oh, the room is 27' x 21' x 14' at the top of the apex.

My initial speaker set up imaged OK but could be better. Two days later and a lot of careful re positioning they were nearly there and the imaging is great... When I then tweaked the positioning & moved them closer together the sound warmed up... so far so good. Then I noticed they weren't quite at the same vertical angle.

When I got the speakers perfectly vertical the emotional involvement reappeared. A good example would be Van's voice on Veedon Fleece, he went from singing the words to sounding like he was interested!
Here's the question: Given that the tweeters are round why does this happen when the speakers are perfectly vertical? Or do you think I inadvertently changed something else?

First, allow me to compliment you on the beautiful color of your trio.

I frequently encounter a system similar to yours, comprising the Avantgarde Acoustics Trio (G2) along with four Basshorns, on a weekly basis.

It's important to note that horn speakers exhibit greater directionality compared to dynamic speakers. Therefore, any haphazard or suboptimal placement of the speaker or misaligned twitter or mid units will become readily apparent. Additionally, when you factor in the unique sound coloration of the Trio, these are likely the primary reasons behind the auditory experiences you are describing.

 

[sbnx]

Here's a question for Todd, or anyone else here.
I've just installed my Trios in a new room. Although IMO the room is beautiful looking the shape of the room ceiling means set up is problematic.
(NB the photos are the room as a work in progress. no pictures or drapes yet, cables not raised, you can't see the subs which are in the corners as per REL's recommendation. Please don't tell me what else I should be doing to the system, its WIP. I wanted music asap.) Oh, the room is 27' x 21' x 14' at the top of the apex.

My initial speaker set up imaged OK but could be better. Two days later and a lot of careful re positioning they were nearly there and the imaging is great... When I then tweaked the positioning & moved them closer together the sound warmed up... so far so good. Then I noticed they weren't quite at the same vertical angle.

When I got the speakers perfectly vertical the emotional involvement reappeared. A good example would be Van's voice on Veedon Fleece, he went from singing the words to sounding like he was interested!
Here's the question: Given that the tweeters are round why does this happen when the speakers are perfectly vertical? Or do you think I inadvertently changed something else?

Hello Chop. Great looking system. I really like the color. That saphire blue was in the top 2 choices for me. Your room looks great. I am certainly not one to rush people on their system/room setup. It is a process and it takes time to get everything dialed in an setup. All of those little things add up. So please take your time.

On the speaker alignment. I have come to think of the sound coming from each driver like a grid where each frequency has its own grid spacing. When the grids overlap and are not aligned we get blurring and smearing. This obscures detail and suppresses micro dynamics. I think when you stood up the speakers and got them both perfectly level the grids got more aligned and that is what enabled you to hear better dynamic shading.

This grid alignment thing also happens at the low end. You can try adjusting the height some and see if you get more clarity in the bass. I suggest raising the speakers by about 1/2 a turn of the spikes at a time and see what happens.

In one of the videos you can see the little laser device I made to help with tweeter alignment. This was pretty easy and cheap to make. It really helps with getting the tweeter exactly where you want it and matching between the left and right speaker. As you know, once the right/left tweeter are aligned the imaging thing happens like magic.

Best of luck in your setup. All the time and effort will be worth it in the end.

 

[Chop]

Hello Chop. Great looking system. I really like the color. That saphire blue was in the top 2 choices for me. Your room looks great. I am certainly not one to rush people on their system/room setup. It is a process and it takes time to get everything dialed in an setup. All of those little things add up. So please take your time.

On the speaker alignment. I have come to think of the sound coming from each driver like a grid where each frequency has its own grid spacing. When the grids overlap and are not aligned we get blurring and smearing. This obscures detail and suppresses micro dynamics. I think when you stood up the speakers and got them both perfectly level the grids got more aligned and that is what enabled you to hear better dynamic shading.

This grid alignment thing also happens at the low end. You can try adjusting the height some and see if you get more clarity in the bass. I suggest raising the speakers by about 1/2 a turn of the spikes at a time and see what happens.

In one of the videos you can see the little laser device I made to help with tweeter alignment. This was pretty easy and cheap to make. It really helps with getting the tweeter exactly where you want it and matching between the left and right speaker. As you know, once the right/left tweeter are aligned the imaging thing happens like magic.

Best of luck in your setup. All the time and effort will be worth it in the end.

Very useful perspective, thank you.

 

[Uwiik]

@sbnx , do you think it is worth it to get Itron Trio G3 without the basshorn? I have been avoiding an audition at the local dealer for the past three months because I was afraid I will like it, but yesterday it was unavoidable (because I need the dealer’s help to move my system to my new house), and off course I was instantly hooked….However, I am still in the middle of filling up my new house and the wife wants a new grand piano, so I don’t think I can comfortably afford the pair of basshorns right now. Ironically, of all the qualities the G3 possessed, it was the bass that I was most impressed with, the quality of the bass was unreal during my audition and that was with a pair of basshorns.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Lagonda]

@sbnx , do you think it is worth it to get Itron Trio G3 without the basshorn? I have been avoiding an audition at the local dealer for the past three months because I was afraid I will like it, but yesterday it was unavoidable (because I need the dealer’s help to move my system to my new house), and off course I was instantly hooked….However, I am still in the middle of filling up my new house and the wife wants a new grand piano, so I don’t think I can comfortably afford the pair of basshorns right now. Ironically, of all the qualities the G3 possessed, it was the bass that I was most impressed with, the quality of the bass was unreal during my audition and that was with a pair of basshorns.

Thanks in advance!

View attachment 116592

Very cool color !

 

[LL21]

@sbnx , do you think it is worth it to get Itron Trio G3 without the basshorn? I have been avoiding an audition at the local dealer for the past three months because I was afraid I will like it, but yesterday it was unavoidable (because I need the dealer’s help to move my system to my new house), and off course I was instantly hooked….However, I am still in the middle of filling up my new house and the wife wants a new grand piano, so I don’t think I can comfortably afford the pair of basshorns right now. Ironically, of all the qualities the G3 possessed, it was the bass that I was most impressed with, the quality of the bass was unreal during my audition and that was with a pair of basshorns.

Thanks in advance!

View attachment 116592

What a fantastic option to be considering! Let me weigh in (not on intimate knowledge of the AG Trio + Basshorn though I have heard the latest flagship), but more based on my own experience/views on going for a system.

From your own description, you love the sound, and you cannot afford the bass horn 'right now'. This means to me if you could do it now, there is a good chance you would...and it also appears it is well within the realm of the possible that you will be able to.

You can probably tell from my own read here that I am going to suggest you commit to building towards this dream system. Go for the iTron and get the basshorns as soon as you are ready. I am betting you wont regret it in the medium or even long term. From my own personal experience, being patient and building a system even sometimes piecemeal has been well worth it in the end. One of my more extreme examples was using a $50 Daewood DVD players for years until getting the Zanden digital because I knew what I wanted, and I did not wish to spend lots of interim money on incremental steps. But 15 years later, and I have never regretted it.

One man's view. Enjoy.

 

[Hear Here]

Get the Basshorns - and an upright piano!

 

[sbnx]

@sbnx , do you think it is worth it to get Itron Trio G3 without the basshorn? I have been avoiding an audition at the local dealer for the past three months because I was afraid I will like it, but yesterday it was unavoidable (because I need the dealer’s help to move my system to my new house), and off course I was instantly hooked….However, I am still in the middle of filling up my new house and the wife wants a new grand piano, so I don’t think I can comfortably afford the pair of basshorns right now. Ironically, of all the qualities the G3 possessed, it was the bass that I was most impressed with, the quality of the bass was unreal during my audition and that was with a pair of basshorns.

Thanks in advance!

View attachment 116592

Hello Uwiik,

I looked at your system profile. Are you still using the Franco Serblin speakers with Jadis? I did not see any subwoofers listed in your profile. Is this correct?

I ask these question for a couple reasons. Perhaps you thought the bass was the most impressive since it is 4 12" woofer in those spacehorns and you aren't used to that with the Franco Serblin speakers.

The main trio only goes down to about 100Hz. So you will have to have something picking up the bass. Some have used REL subwoofers for this. Whatever you use it is going to have to be good and fast or the sound is going to be disjointed. One options that is really no cheaper since you have to add a good amp, cables and a crossover and that is the PureLow panels could be used instead of the spacehorns. I think there are two reasons for the Purelow option. 1. They consume much less space and 2. they go down to 10Hz. (The spacehorns roll off at 35Hz). There is also the single driver spacehorn option as well. It is about 2/3 the cost of the dual spacehorn. It depends on how big your room is. Unless you have a very large room a pair of single dirver spacehorns is going to produce "enough" bass. The nice thing is that you could come back at a later date and still add another pair of singles or a pair of dual spacehorns.

You could also use your Jadis amp and get the passive crossover option. The passive crossover is about $5K whereas the iTron is about $40K. You can add the iTron amp at any time in the future.

So, The least expensive way to get into a pair of Trios is to get the Trio with a passive crossover and use a Pair of REL (Or other) subwoofers.

Have you considered the Duo GT? With the iTron amp it is in the $70K range. The reason I mention this option is it depends on your long term intention. If you intend on getting a pair of spacehorns, say next year, and upgrading to the iTron in a year or two then get the Trios. But if you are thinking I probably won't ever be able to get the spacehornt then I think the Duo GT is going to beat the passive trios with REL subs. But that is just my opinion and I have not heard them side by side to validate tthis conjecture.

One other note that just popped in my head on the Duo GT's. With the Duo's you don't have to worry about trying to integrate a pair of woofers crossing over in the 100Hz range. This is no trivial task.

 

[Hear Here]

Another way of adding bass without resort to non-Avantgarde subs (and a lot less costly than Basshorns) is to get a couple of Avantgarde SUB231s or their Short Basshorns. If Basshorns are on the cards in the forseeable future, perhaps look for used 231s or Shorts for now. These have twin 12" drivers so the same driver compliment, though not so effective an enclosure design.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The subs are at least 50 % of the performance imo.
And what makes the new AG attractive.
I would certainly buy with subs also because AG designed this as a system off course.

The below 100 hz performance is what makes a speaker system a top performer or merely an ordinary design

 

[Hear Here]

The subs are at least 50 % of the performance imo.
And what makes the new AG attractive.
I would certainly buy with subs also because AG designed this as a system off course.

The below 100 hz performance is what makes a speaker system a top performer or merely an ordinary design

Sub-bass is more like 5% than 50% of music's performance.

The other bass units from AG I mentioned will deliver 90% of what the Basshorn will. Granted, people buying Trios will want 100%, hence my suggested upgrade path as funds become available. Or, just be happy with Duo GT rather than Trio! Personally I think I'd prefer the Duo system anyway and I'm looking forward to hearing this system.