Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[LL21]

Excellent, sensible post, thank you

Hi Chop,

As promised, coming over to here to ask you some questions about your Trio setup...on the bass side. You have a truly amazing set up and was intrigued to ask more to help inform our own thinking about our set up.

On our Subwoofer setup...I have been mulling over the 'final piece' of our own system. (I call each system 'fully evolved' when the final piece goes in. And over the last 30+ years, there have been 4 other systems that got to 'fully evolved' for what they were.) The debate on how to achieve 'final subwoofer setup' right now includes:

- REL dual stack (6-pack)...they are just so large in terms of floor area right by the speakers (vs elsewhere in the room)
- Funk Audio custom dual-opposed behemoth...1 in the corner (yes, not ideal for optimal but some practicalities need to be involved here)
- Pure Lo panels dual (between front wall and back of XLF)

The goal (I think) is to achieve that remarkable sense of spaciousness, venue and surround that comes from great subterranean bass...we have that now, but believe a lot more is possible with the right level of air displacement (even at low levels given our experience to date). The question is whether that air displacement is ENTIRELY below 32hz or whether (as per REL 6-pack/stacked), it also should rise to 42hz+/- in the middle of the stack and ultimately to 52hz+/- at the top of the 3-sub stack.

So I was intrigued to hear about your experience with REL.

1. Did you consider a 6-pack and do you like the design concept of it or do you think it does not achieve the goals you were looking for?
2. Did you listen to different RELs before making your choice?

 

[caesar]

Congrats again! And thank you for sharing your journey. This is definitely one of the best threads here in years. And it provides a model blue print for future thinking reviewers - who are interested in excellence instead of self importance. Imagine the brilliant writing style of Jonathan Valin and Alex Halberstadt, the thoroughness of Roy Gregory, your expertise and video references / examples of specific tasks that are hard to communicate in words, possibly link to short video interviews with experts and designers... Ooo la la!

Now many so called "leaders" in this industry think videos is the future. Yet take a look at Fremer's video channel. he is supposed to be the rock star in this industry, yet his view counts are mostly 2K-3K. Ditto for the meaty- head dude with the latin accent who rambles about his favorite gear. Video counts for the Audio research disaster are even lower. How many alter kakers have the time to watch those awful things. And bores the fukk out of the "younger generation".

So this may be the new model for an excellent product, if guys are serious and paying attention.

 

[caesar]

Hi SBNX,
coming back full circle: I ran into a buddy considering horns, and he told me Avantgardes can be "aggressive" and thus he's not sure. So based on all you have done and learned. How would you answer that? and if true under certain circumstance, what would you do to mitigate? thanks

 

[sbnx]

Hi SBNX,
coming back full circle: I ran into a buddy considering horns, and he told me Avantgardes can be "aggressive" and thus he's not sure. So based on all you have done and learned. How would you answer that? and if true under certain circumstance, what would you do to mitigate? thanks

Hello Caesar,

Glad to hear you are enjoying the AG Trio Journey.

Regarding aggressiveness. This is what always turned me away from horns. However, AG has time aligned the drivers and allowed for the adjustable tweeter in the G3. The impact of this feature can not be overstated. When setup properly there is no (zero) glare or agressiveness to the Trio's sound. The speakers have extreme resolution and will thus show you what your feeding gear sounds like. If there are shortcomings in the preamp or dac or cables or ... you will hear it. Don't shoot the messanger (speaker).

I know you guys think I am totally crazy and just making this stuff up. But last weekend I made "fuses" out of pure silver rod for the iTron amp and Spacehorn. Not to worry. I didn't break any rules. AG proves a pure copper slug in the place for the fuse. I simply wanted to see the impact of silver. Well, it messed the timing up so bad that I thought the settings I had put into the spacehorn must have been reset when I powered it off to replace the fuse. I checked and nope. Still the same values that I had before. I had to burn the new silver slug in for several days for it to recover. Then I just wasn't super happy with the way the oboe sounded. I flipped the slug around and viola. Oboe expressiveness returned. With this speaker the audio world is your oyster.

Here is a video I just took using my iphone. You can listen to the Oboe and ask if you think it sounds agressive. Please listen on some type of headphone. It sounds bad replaying it through the iphone speaker. I listened through my simple Shokz bone conducting blue tooth headphones and it sounds decent. I would like to add that the iphone doesn't quite capture all of the expressiveness that is there when listening live. And the top notes sound more ragged through the phone recording than they are live. But maybe that all sounds like excuses so give it a listen and see what you think.

https://youtube.com/shorts/wXbk_5TctrE?si=g8chx_C0_qaBkRmP

 

[sbnx]

Hi Chop,

As promised, coming over to here to ask you some questions about your Trio setup...on the bass side. You have a truly amazing set up and was intrigued to ask more to help inform our own thinking about our set up.

On our Subwoofer setup...I have been mulling over the 'final piece' of our own system. (I call each system 'fully evolved' when the final piece goes in. And over the last 30+ years, there have been 4 other systems that got to 'fully evolved' for what they were.) The debate on how to achieve 'final subwoofer setup' right now includes:

- REL dual stack (6-pack)...they are just so large in terms of floor area right by the speakers (vs elsewhere in the room)
- Funk Audio custom dual-opposed behemoth...1 in the corner (yes, not ideal for optimal but some practicalities need to be involved here)
- Pure Lo panels dual (between front wall and back of XLF)

The goal (I think) is to achieve that remarkable sense of spaciousness, venue and surround that comes from great subterranean bass...we have that now, but believe a lot more is possible with the right level of air displacement (even at low levels given our experience to date). The question is whether that air displacement is ENTIRELY below 32hz or whether (as per REL 6-pack/stacked), it also should rise to 42hz+/- in the middle of the stack and ultimately to 52hz+/- at the top of the 3-sub stack.

So I was intrigued to hear about your experience with REL.

1. Did you consider a 6-pack and do you like the design concept of it or do you think it does not achieve the goals you were looking for?
2. Did you listen to different RELs before making your choice?

Hello Lloyd, I know you are addressing chop so I hope you don't mind if I make a comment or two.

I don't beleive any other subwoofer on the planet is going to beat a pure-low. The small one (GR) has a radiating area equivalant to 4.5 18" woofers and the big one is equivalant to 6 18" woofers. Of course we still need a stereo pair of them to equally pressurize the room. This thing is a super light weight, high effciency panel. It plays down to 8Hz and up to 400Hz. I think integrating it with any speaker would be a dream. Of course the integration comment is just speculation on my part.

The only drawback (which isn't really a drawback from a sonic perspective) is that the purelow is passive. That means we will have to have a seperate stereo amp and crossover and cables. This makes for a very pricey bottom octave. Well, really bottom two octaves since we will have plenty of bass below 10Hz.

Maybe next year will see me get a pair of them. But, I hope you get a pair before me.

 

[Chop]

Hi Chop,

As promised, coming over to here to ask you some questions about your Trio setup...on the bass side. You have a truly amazing set up and was intrigued to ask more to help inform our own thinking about our set up.

On our Subwoofer setup...I have been mulling over the 'final piece' of our own system. (I call each system 'fully evolved' when the final piece goes in. And over the last 30+ years, there have been 4 other systems that got to 'fully evolved' for what they were.) The debate on how to achieve 'final subwoofer setup' right now includes:
the six pack should be
- REL dual stack (6-pack)...they are just so large in terms of floor area right by the speakers (vs elsewhere in the room)
- Funk Audio custom dual-opposed behemoth...1 in the corner (yes, not ideal for optimal but some practicalities need to be involved here)
- Pure Lo panels dual (between front wall and back of XLF)

The goal (I think) is to achieve that remarkable sense of spaciousness, venue and surround that comes from great subterranean bass...we have that now, but believe a lot more is possible with the right level of air displacement (even at low levels given our experience to date). The question is whether that air displacement is ENTIRELY below 32hz or whether (as per REL 6-pack/stacked), it also should rise to 42hz+/- in the middle of the stack and ultimately to 52hz+/- at the top of the 3-sub stack.

So I was intrigued to hear about your experience with REL.

1. Did you consider a 6-pack and do you like the design concept of it or do you think it does not achieve the goals you were looking for?
2. Did you listen to different RELs before making your choice?

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been busy managing builders.

1. I didn't really consider a six pack due to cost and space constraints. However I suspect it may achieve my goals even more fully than the 212's do. The pair of 212's (don't go for a single sub) not only pressurize the room properly but are far, far faster than the equivalent box Avantgarde subs, which greatly helps with integration. As I understand it the six pack should both pressurize even better and may be a bit faster again. I consider the pair of the smaller 212SE's to be a sensible compromise between practicality and performance.
The speed and flexibility of the 212's mean integration with the Trios is pretty much seamless, at least to my ears. Bear in mind that these have been set up as per REL's recommendations, by REL, with the subs in the corners not into the room. As mentioned elsewhere, tiny tiny adjustments make a huge difference. IMO they are a hugely subtle subwoofer when adjusted right.
NB I'm under no illusion that they will be as pure and seamless as Todd's set up, which is simply at another level entirely with a more modern incarnation of the Trios, but this "lower level" Trio set up is extremely well integrated.

2. I did briefly, but quickly fell for the 212s.
Just as a point of confirmation: I listen to all sorts of music from lieder to Reggae via 70's rock and really enjoy them, but FWIW I recommended them to another contributor here who has Trios and only plays classical music on vinyl. His opinion is exactly the same as mine.

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been busy managing builders.

1. I didn't really consider a six pack due to cost and space constraints.

6 pack RELs do nothing. I heard with Magico Q7 mk2. They won’t be able to touch what the trio bass horns do. And you can have two bass horns, you don’t need 6

 

[Ron Resnick]

6 pack RELs do nothing.

Anybody who has ever heard a pair of 15" RELs, let alone a six-pack, knows that they do not do nothing.

 

[bonzo75]

Anybody who has ever heard a pair of 15" RELs, let alone a six-pack, knows that they do not do nothing.

i did. They are useless. If you can integrate two effectively great. Pointless having 6. And they are quite poor compared to bass horns, that goes for all RELs I have heard. I think you are so in love with visual sizes etc of heights of speaker and no of subs, you forget to actually listen

 

[Ron Resnick]

i did. They are useless. If you can integrate two effectively great. Pointless having 6.

I recently heard a pair of REL No. 25s in a system with PBN M2!5 speakers. What they did is very far from "nothing."

I don't know why you would post seriously something so ludicrous.

 

[bonzo75]

I recently heard a pair of REL No. 25s in a system with PBN M2!5 speakers. What they did is very far from "nothing."

I don't know why you would post seriously something so ludicrous.

So what about 6 then? I already wrote if you integrate two you will be fine. You heard a pair. How does that change what I said?

How does it change what trio bass horns do? Chop has trios. Why should he get two REL, let along 6, except for cost/WAF type reasons

 

[LL21]

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been busy managing builders.

1. I didn't really consider a six pack due to cost and space constraints. However I suspect it may achieve my goals even more fully than the 212's do. The pair of 212's (don't go for a single sub) not only pressurize the room properly but are far, far faster than the equivalent box Avantgarde subs, which greatly helps with integration. As I understand it the six pack should both pressurize even better and may be a bit faster again. I consider the pair of the smaller 212SE's to be a sensible compromise between practicality and performance.
The speed and flexibility of the 212's mean integration with the Trios is pretty much seamless, at least to my ears. Bear in mind that these have been set up as per REL's recommendations, by REL, with the subs in the corners not into the room. As mentioned elsewhere, tiny tiny adjustments make a huge difference. IMO they are a hugely subtle subwoofer when adjusted right.
NB I'm under no illusion that they will be as pure and seamless as Todd's set up, which is simply at another level entirely with a more modern incarnation of the Trios, but this "lower level" Trio set up is extremely well integrated.

2. I did briefly, but quickly fell for the 212s.
Just as a point of confirmation: I listen to all sorts of music from lieder to Reggae via 70's rock and really enjoy them, but FWIW I recommended them to another contributor here who has Trios and only plays classical music on vinyl. His opinion is exactly the same as mine.

Thank you...very helpful!

 

[LL21]

Hello Lloyd, I know you are addressing chop so I hope you don't mind if I make a comment or two.

I don't beleive any other subwoofer on the planet is going to beat a pure-low. The small one (GR) has a radiating area equivalant to 4.5 18" woofers and the big one is equivalant to 6 18" woofers. Of course we still need a stereo pair of them to equally pressurize the room. This thing is a super light weight, high effciency panel. It plays down to 8Hz and up to 400Hz. I think integrating it with any speaker would be a dream. Of course the integration comment is just speculation on my part.

The only drawback (which isn't really a drawback from a sonic perspective) is that the purelow is passive. That means we will have to have a seperate stereo amp and crossover and cables. This makes for a very pricey bottom octave. Well, really bottom two octaves since we will have plenty of bass below 10Hz.

Maybe next year will see me get a pair of them. But, I hope you get a pair before me.

Thank you! Have only read Roy's review of them, and he did rave about them. On the radiating surface, the one thing about that is that the 18" cone moves a lot of air because of its excursion distance...whereas a radiating panel barely moves back and forth at all. So in terms of air movement, it could well be that a pair of 18" moves just as much air.

That said, we are talking about quite a lot of bass anyhow, and I would well imagine electrostatic is quite sensational IF it can create visceral impact (which at subterranean levels is often left to cones or cones/horns in really really big venues).

Have you heard the Pure Lows?

 

[Lagonda]

Hello Lloyd, I know you are addressing chop so I hope you don't mind if I make a comment or two.

I don't beleive any other subwoofer on the planet is going to beat a pure-low. The small one (GR) has a radiating area equivalant to 4.5 18" woofers and the big one is equivalant to 6 18" woofers. Of course we still need a stereo pair of them to equally pressurize the room. This thing is a super light weight, high effciency panel. It plays down to 8Hz and up to 400Hz. I think integrating it with any speaker would be a dream. Of course the integration comment is just speculation on my part.

The only drawback (which isn't really a drawback from a sonic perspective) is that the purelow is passive. That means we will have to have a seperate stereo amp and crossover and cables. This makes for a very pricey bottom octave. Well, really bottom two octaves since we will have plenty of bass below 10Hz.

Maybe next year will see me get a pair of them. But, I hope you get a pair before me.

And maybe a listen before making conclusions would be prudent, one review does not a product make !

 

[LL21]

Hello Lloyd, I know you are addressing chop so I hope you don't mind if I make a comment or two.

I don't beleive any other subwoofer on the planet is going to beat a pure-low. The small one (GR) has a radiating area equivalant to 4.5 18" woofers and the big one is equivalant to 6 18" woofers. Of course we still need a stereo pair of them to equally pressurize the room. This thing is a super light weight, high effciency panel. It plays down to 8Hz and up to 400Hz. I think integrating it with any speaker would be a dream. Of course the integration comment is just speculation on my part.

The only drawback (which isn't really a drawback from a sonic perspective) is that the purelow is passive. That means we will have to have a seperate stereo amp and crossover and cables. This makes for a very pricey bottom octave. Well, really bottom two octaves since we will have plenty of bass below 10Hz.

Maybe next year will see me get a pair of them. But, I hope you get a pair before me.

Pure Low's website says their larger model displaces 7 litres of air or 427 cubic inches. That is about half of a single Velodyne DD18+ about probably 1/5th to 1/10th of the really all-out solutions like REL 6-pack or big bass horns. I have zero idea if air displacement measured this way is in any way informative about the actual in-room impact from a listen's perspective. I understand it matters, but I have no idea how this particular measurement as it goes up and down by, say, 1 liter affects the listening experience. That said, already having a Velodyne DD18+, my intention here was to go for the equivalent of several of these...so that the distortion levels at the same listening level would be that much lower.

 

[sbnx]

And maybe a listen before making conclusions would be prudent, one review does not a product make !

Of course you are correct. I have a crush on them. It is on my "to-do" list to find and hear them. It is not easy as I think there is only one dealer in the US. But when I get serious I will make a pilgrimage. Unfortunately, I will be at the mercy of the dealer's skill in sub integration.

But given what they are and their specs I can imagine some pretty great, super fast low end extension from them. They do have an X-max of 9.5mm in the B-field. By comparision, the 11 inch woofers in the Vivid Spirits had an X-max of 11mm and they could produce enough bass to blow up my room. So I am not worried that two of them could produce a pressure wave that could physically push me backwards.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Regarding aggressiveness. This is what always turned me away from horns. However, AG has time aligned the drivers and allowed for the adjustable tweeter in the G3. The impact of this feature can not be overstated. When setup properly there is no (zero) glare or agressiveness to the Trio's sound.

I am very happy for you that you are not experiencing any aggressiveness in this new system! (Based on personal experiences, to my subjective ears, and based on the experiences of people I know who have heard home systems with Trios G3s, a hint of edginess or aggressiveness has been a sensitive spot with AG loudspeakers, even with Trio G3s. The adjustable tweeter in the Trio G3 definitely is a big help in ameliorating any aggressiveness.)

 

[Elliot G.]

Of course you are correct. I have a crush on them. It is on my "to-do" list to find and hear them. It is not easy as I think there is only one dealer in the US. But when I get serious I will make a pilgrimage. Unfortunately, I will be at the mercy of the dealer's skill in sub integration.

But given what they are and their specs I can imagine some pretty great, super fast low end extension from them. They do have an X-max of 9.5mm in the B-field. By comparision, the 11 inch woofers in the Vivid Spirits had an X-max of 11mm and they could produce enough bass to blow up my room. So I am not worried that two of them could produce a pressure wave that could physically push me backwards.

after reading RG's review I did contact them about potentially distributing or becomeing a dealer for the sub. When I sat and thought about the size and price plus the fact that it was a passive device that requires a really good amp and wire I personally passed as I felt this is a product that probably should sell direct. THis market is tiny

 

[sbnx]

I think I need to clarify my thoughts and observations on aggressiveness.

The Trio's are certainly dynamic. They are by far the most dynamic speaker I have ever owned and by a mile. They excel at both micro and macro dynamics. The subtle nuance and shading I can hear is stunning. I want to make sure we don't confuse dynamics and aggressiveness. Because if someone were to listen to the Trios and be shocked/startled by the quickly shifting dynamics and how loud the loud passages can seem relative to the quiet ones they might state something like "Wow! Those violins are playing very aggressively.". This is not what I mean by the word "aggressive".

I think what I and others mean by "aggressive" is sound that would cause one to wince. For example, a piercing treble where the oboe or violin hit notes that sound in such a way that I want to cover my ears. It actually hurts. This is why I posted the video of the oboe. I can post an e-string violin piece as well to illustrate the lack of aggressiveness that exists in the trios when properly setup.

I can certainly make the Trios sound "aggressive" by the latter definition. I discussed this in one of the videos. I can find many spots along the toe-in/rake path where the speaker is frankly unlistenable. So, it is up to the owner/dealer/expert to setup the speakers in the optimal manner and then there is no wincing whatsoever. No aggressiveness except in the exuberant playing of the instrument that brings a smile to my face.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think I need to clarify my thoughts and observations on aggressiveness.

The Trio's are certainly dynamic. They are by far the most dynamic speaker I have ever owned and by a mile. They excel at both micro and macro dynamics. The subtle nuance and shading I can hear is stunning. I want to make sure we don't confuse dynamics and aggressiveness. Because if someone were to listen to the Trios and be shocked/startled by the quickly shifting dynamics and how loud the loud passages can seem relative to the quiet ones they might state something like "Wow! Those violins are playing very aggressively.". This is not what I mean by the word "aggressive".

I think what I and others mean by "aggressive" is sound that would cause one to wince. For example, a piercing treble where the oboe or violin hit notes that sound in such a way that I want to cover my ears. It actually hurts. This is why I posted the video of the oboe. I can post an e-string violin piece as well to illustrate the lack of aggressiveness that exists in the trios when properly setup.

I can certainly make the Trios sound "aggressive" by the latter definition. I discussed this in one of the videos. I can find many spots along the toe-in/rake path where the speaker is frankly unlistenable. So, it is up to the owner/dealer/expert to setup the speakers in the optimal manner and then there is no wincing whatsoever. No aggressiveness except in the exuberant playing of the instrument that brings a smile to my face.

Its the Indian not the arrow for sure. I would love to hear a great horn system set up correctly. The closest I came was the living voice with subs once and that was very good but not quite there. It was a show afterall. I do understand why people feel the way they do about some of the horn systems they have heard. I firmly believe there is no partial way with those speakers , they are or they aren't set up right. I look foward to hearing the right stuff even though I won't be buying it. COngrats on your journey and your work to do it right!!