Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[andromedaaudio]

I just don't get it either. How can changing just one power cord on a DAC make that much difference. As you know, this is not a subtle change in the sound character. Someone could get a PhD if they could really figure this out. I have all but given up on the intellectual side of audio and just enjoy the music that results from finding the right comonents.

You need really revealing speakers lol .

I have 3 power cords .
1 is 2,50 the other one is 4, 50 and i have a couple that cost 200 .
As a dutchman i tend to automatically gravitate towards the cheap one .

(Ps if the sound collapses while using a cheap power cord then there is something wrong with it in my view)

 

[Johan K]

naaah.

i think Todd has done the work to go his own way. he got the room right, then learned the room, tried other speakers in it, and approached the Trio's very objectively. his process combined with his clear considerable tech knowledge puts him in a great spot. and he is enjoying the discovery process.

give him 6-12 more months to play around. these things take time. hired guns come in and fix things. it's not the long game. Todd is playing the long game.

my own process was 10 years of stumbling around, my speaker builder/designer spending a couple days, then me finding my own reference and finally doing the 9 month final tune process. but i (1) never had Todd's tech knowledge, and (2) my speakers were not as challenging as the Trio's.

could others get more from my room? it might get better or get worse with things they might try. who knows? i know i'm happy. and i loved the personal journey. but the room and time commitment Todd and i have made is not for everyone. so agree that Jim Smith and Trayle are great ideas for many.

Best writing I’ve seen in a long time. Could not have said it better myself. Very good Mike .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

my understanding on the i Tron amps, is that each of the three i Tron amps output 3 watts class A but they 'dissipate' 100 watts each.

who knows what that might mean technically?

maybe somehow the drivers only access 3 class A watts, but the potential is 100 watts? which would be in conflict with how a conventional class A amp would work. but clearly this is not that. in this application the i Tron amps don't need to output more than 3 watts so the design has more flexibility than a broad market targeted 100 watt class A amp would have.

 

[sbnx]

I guess it is like all class A amps. The vast majority of the power is dissipated as heat. Earlier I said the amp is barely warm. This is becasue I was just feeling toward the upper part. It definitely is much warmer toward the middle. But I can leave my hand on it continuously without pain.

 

[Germanboxers]

my understanding on the i Tron amps, is that each of the three i Tron amps output 3 watts class A but they 'dissipate' 100 watts each.

who knows what that might mean technically?

maybe somehow the drivers only access 3 class A watts, but the potential is 100 watts? which would be in conflict with how a conventional class A amp would work. but clearly this is not that. in this application the i Tron amps don't need to output more than 3 watts so the design has more flexibility than a broad market targeted 100 watt class A amp would have.

Your understanding is correct, Mike. I asked Avantgarde about this a couple of days ago while on a call. The iTron amps are capable of 3 very solid watts class A for each section (high, mid, low) and are conservatively capable of dissipating 100 watts. 3 watts is much more than needed given the direct connection to the drivers and their 109db sensitivity.

 

[caesar]

Your understanding is correct, Mike. I asked Avantgarde about this a couple of days ago while on a call. The iTron amps are capable of 3 very solid watts class A for each section (high, mid, low) and are conservatively capable of dissipating 100 watts. 3 watts is much more than needed given the direct connection to the drivers and their 109db sensitivity.

Hi German Boxers, have yours arrived yet? Looking forward to your thread, including the amp comparisons

 

[caesar]

Hello Caesar,

Yes, Pretty much everything in the system is changing compared with the prior. I added the CHL10. I am seriously considering changing DAC's to the CH C1.2 with associated extras.

Wow! CHL10! And interestingly, the new CH DACs sound completely different than the previous ones. I always found the previosu versions to be akin to zero sized models - just clothes hanging on a hanger... But the newer CH DACs are much more tonally rich, more akin to the TotalDACs and Lampizators. And definitely tonally richer than MSB. I definitely like the changes CH made to their digital. With this type of a change, who needs a SET amp ?

Kidding aside, I wonder what you would think of them, as this type of change will definitely change your sound

 

[Germanboxers]

Hi German Boxers, have yours arrived yet? Looking forward to your thread, including the amp comparisons

Hi Caesar. Yes, my Trios and space horns have arrived; however, there were a couple of problems that needed some troubleshooting. The passive-to-active switch was non-functioning and the tweeter amplifier on one of the iTrons was not functioning. Armin was very helpful in guiding the trouble-shooting via phone and he is sending a replacement iTron amp and switch. If all goes well, I'll receive them by the end of next week. In the meantime I started running them in 5.5 days ago. Initial impressions are very positive even though I believe there is much more to extract with more run in, positioning, spiking the speakers and iTron.

Once I receive the new iTron amp, I will need to run those in for a few hundred hours before I begin serious comparisons between iTron and my Mayer amps. Hopefully, I will have speaker positioning dialed in prior to this. Todd's herculean effort has given me inspiration to put more energy into this aspect of the hobby again. Over the last 10 years I have become a bit more lazy with setup, not because I was unaware of the reward, but more so because I just enjoyed the system as it was and with a busy professional and personal schedule, preferred not to go down the rabbit hole. The massive potential of the Trios and Basshorns has forced a rethinking of the topic.

 

[sbnx]

All, there is been a bit of back and forth on whether to measure from the top or bottom of the tweeter horn. The manual clearly says "Top" but there was a post were someone received a pic from AG showing the bottom. I e-mailed Armin at AG and received the response last night. He definitively states that the TOP of the tweeter horn is to be used. I have pasted a pic of his email.

 

[sbnx]

Wow! CHL10! And interestingly, the new CH DACs sound completely different than the previous ones. I always found the previosu versions to be akin to zero sized models - just clothes hanging on a hanger... But the newer CH DACs are much more tonally rich, more akin to the TotalDACs and Lampizators. And definitely tonally richer than MSB. I definitely like the changes CH made to their digital. With this type of a change, who needs a SET amp ?

Kidding aside, I wonder what you would think of them, as this type of change will definitely change your sound

Thanks for the feedback on the C1.2. This coming weekend I am going to Denver to hear a C1.2 in a very nice setup that should clearly show what it is doing. I should be able to hear the impact of the X1 and Clock as well.

 

[adyc]

I spent last Friday listening to G3 in the dealer showroom for about 1.5 hours. They have two dual spacehorns at each corner. The sound is absolutely horrible. Bass is muddy and not defined. No imaging. This dealer has been AG dealer for 20 years and he claimed he has loads of experience of setting AG speakers. After this demo, I would not trust him setting up G3 if I decide to buy one.

 

[sbnx]

I spent last Friday listening to G3 in the dealer showroom for about 1.5 hours. They have two dual spacehorns at each corner. The sound is absolutely horrible. Bass is muddy and not defined. No imaging. This dealer has been AG dealer for 20 years and he claimed he has loads of experience of setting AG speakers. After this demo, I would not trust him setting up G3 if I decide to buy one.

I am surprised you were able to sit there for 1.5 hours. This is one of my hot buttons. It just drives me crazy how dealers are putting $100K, $200K, $300K speakers on the floor that sound horrible. If a dealer has been in business for 20+ years they should know what good music sounds like. I get that not everyone will be 100% in agreement with what the person did as we all love to nit pick. But I am not talking nit picking here. There are fundamental things wrong with 90% of the dealer setups. Things like the center image is pulled way to one side or the bass is extremely muddy or the high's are bright, brittle and edgy or the highs are completely chopped out of the sound.

It is like you have to listen through the setup to hear the potential of the speaker. I think that in most cases it would be better if they just put one speaker in the middle and I listened to that. It would be a lot easier to hear what that speaker can deliver.

I hope you can find a well setup pair of Trio's to listen to.

 

[sbnx]

Hello everyone. It has been a while since my last post. Been busy and out of town quite a bit but slowly spending time with the speakers. Still waiting on some stuff to arrive for the system so no need to push things forward to far as I would just have to readjust anyway.

I shot a couple videos on observations regarding toe-in, rake and azimuth and where to point the tweeter.

 

[sbnx]

Update on the system. I have been on a path of lower and lower noise floor. The Trios expose ALL noise whether one realizes it is there or not. Simply install something, anything really, and they will tell you if it is something that lowers the system noise.

I posted in another thread about the effectiveness of the CAD USB Ground control devices. I installed 4 of these and with each one the noise floor dropped. I also purchased and installed a CAD GCR. The noise floor dropped again and again as I connected each component to the GCR. The change in sound before the CAD stuff and after is night and day. Different ground cables were tried in different positions to find the best pairing. It is pretty amazing how something as apparently benign as a ground cable matters. The sound could go from bloomy, to bright and edgy to good depending on the cable and location.

I also installed some new RevOpods. Before I had the DAC and Preamp on RevoPods. I added revopods under the streamer and under the CAD GCR. Both of these were substantial. The weirdest one was on the Nordost Qkore that is connected to the Trio's iTron ground. It sits on a piece of bamboo on a "sand box". I had it up on EVP's. I then put it on revopods. It was a bit of a mixed bag -- some good some bad. Then I put the EVP's under the revopods and all the good stuff happened. This stuff is just insane!

The L10 has a RJ45 input that allows the use of a tablet to control it. (Volume and all other settings). Those of you with CH who are still using the remote might want to consider getting a $200 tablet. As soon as you start controlling the volume with the tablet -- BOOM! -- the noise floor drops. Touch the remote and noise returns. For CH systems I can't imagine any other way to spend $200 and get such big gains.

Since I have an eithernet cable plugged into the L10 from the switch I got worried that some noise would find its way in. So I got a couple Aardvarks. Plugged one into the input of the switch and things improved. Plugged one into the L10 and intially a little bright but needs some break in. Now I can't live without it.

I am currently experimeting with fuses. Which is another mind blowing activity. I bought some yellow fuses from QSA and am pretty happy with them given the investment. But I am hoping to get a selection of the others up the line to try them out and see what happens. The dealer says the red/black is like going from 720p to 4K. Will have to see.

The iTron uses a copper plug since it has an "e-fuse" that will shut down the amp faster than a fuse can blow. I have purchased a 99.99% pure silver plug to substitue for the copper one. That will be interesting to hear once it arrives.

On the power cord front I have been using Shunyata for many years. I demo'd an Argento FMR power cable on my DAC and was surprised to hear a quieter background compared with the shunyata.

And one final one. I tried a single Furutech cable lifter under a cable. Obvious difference. The effect didn't work but it was obvious.

I purchased some of the Chord contact treatment. For years I have used Deoxit to great effect. I am curious to see what the Chord stuff does. At some point I will treat a single cable to assess its effect. It was a pretty obvious differnce in the demo that Chord does.
The system is starting to get some real resolution. More to come.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have been on a path of lower and lower noise floor. The Trios expose ALL noise whether one realizes it is there or not. Simply install something, anything really, and they will tell you if it is something that lowers the system noise.

I am happy for you that you are finding all of these improvements!

Would you please elaborate on the "noise" you are talking about? Are you hearing hum that these changes reduce the volume of? What does this noise sound like?

I am currently experimeting with fuses. . . . I bought some yellow fuses from QSA and am pretty happy with them given the investment.

How did the QSA fuses change the sound? In which components did you replace the stock fuses with QSA fuses?

Thank you!

 

[adyc]

Update on the system. I have been on a path of lower and lower noise floor. The Trios expose ALL noise whether one realizes it is there or not. Simply install something, anything really, and they will tell you if it is something that lowers the system noise.

I posted in another thread about the effectiveness of the CAD USB Ground control devices. I installed 4 of these and with each one the noise floor dropped. I also purchased and installed a CAD GCR. The noise floor dropped again and again as I connected each component to the GCR. The change in sound before the CAD stuff and after is night and day. Different ground cables were tried in different positions to find the best pairing. It is pretty amazing how something as apparently benign as a ground cable matters. The sound could go from bloomy, to bright and edgy to good depending on the cable and location.

I also installed some new RevOpods. Before I had the DAC and Preamp on RevoPods. I added revopods under the streamer and under the CAD GCR. Both of these were substantial. The weirdest one was on the Nordost Qkore that is connected to the Trio's iTron ground. It sits on a piece of bamboo on a "sand box". I had it up on EVP's. I then put it on revopods. It was a bit of a mixed bag -- some good some bad. Then I put the EVP's under the revopods and all the good stuff happened. This stuff is just insane!

The L10 has a RJ45 input that allows the use of a tablet to control it. (Volume and all other settings). Those of you with CH who are still using the remote might want to consider getting a $200 tablet. As soon as you start controlling the volume with the tablet -- BOOM! -- the noise floor drops. Touch the remote and noise returns. For CH systems I can't imagine any other way to spend $200 and get such big gains.

Since I have an eithernet cable plugged into the L10 from the switch I got worried that some noise would find its way in. So I got a couple Aardvarks. Plugged one into the input of the switch and things improved. Plugged one into the L10 and intially a little bright but needs some break in. Now I can't live without it.

I am currently experimeting with fuses. Which is another mind blowing activity. I bought some yellow fuses from QSA and am pretty happy with them given the investment. But I am hoping to get a selection of the others up the line to try them out and see what happens. The dealer says the red/black is like going from 720p to 4K. Will have to see.

The iTron uses a copper plug since it has an "e-fuse" that will shut down the amp faster than a fuse can blow. I have purchased a 99.99% pure silver plug to substitue for the copper one. That will be interesting to hear once it arrives.

On the power cord front I have been using Shunyata for many years. I demo'd an Argento FMR power cable on my DAC and was surprised to hear a quieter background compared with the shunyata.

And one final one. I tried a single Furutech cable lifter under a cable. Obvious difference. The effect didn't work but it was obvious.

I purchased some of the Chord contact treatment. For years I have used Deoxit to great effect. I am curious to see what the Chord stuff does. At some point I will treat a single cable to assess its effect. It was a pretty obvious differnce in the demo that Chord does.
The system is starting to get some real resolution. More to come.

Has the position of G3 done?

 

[nirodha]

One really important question I would like to ask you: how are your listening sessions? Are they short and ‘furious’ or can you listen for hours and hours?

 

[sbnx]

One really important question I would like to ask you: how are your listening sessions? Are they short and ‘furious’ or can you listen for hours and hours?

I have no fatigue. As long as I want to listen.

 

[sbnx]

Has the position of G3 done?

The left speaker is done. I find it easiest to evaluate stuff from this position. So that is where I am currently. Working through noise floor etc.

 

[sbnx]

I am happy for you that you are finding all of these improvements!

Would you please elaborate on the "noise" you are talking about? Are you hearing hum that these changes reduce the volume of? What does this noise sound like?




How did the QSA fuses change the sound? In which components did you replace the stock fuses with QSA fuses?

Thank you!

Hello Ron. There never was any hum, buzz, hiss or anything else of that nature. I could crank the preamp up all I want and put my ear up to the horn of any of the drivers and as the saying goes "quiet as a church mouse". The type of noise I am talking about is the insidious type. It get superimposed on the music signal in each and every step it takes through the system. Each "layer" I remove gives more and more transparency and dynamics. Again, you really don't know it is there until you take it away and then you are addicted to the new transparency. It is hard to describe what this sounds like. (A bit like trying to describe to someone who has never eaten meat what a steak tasts like). But it is easily demonstrated.

Fuses are more of the same -- lower noise. This can manifest itself differently depending on the component. The dealer, who has very good ears and isn't just trying to push stuff, told me the red/balck was like going to 4K. He relayed that playing Lyle Lovett's "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom" he heard more as described: The fiddle player is playing two tones simultaneously. Stock Fuse: the fiddle is not so well defined and you can't really make out the two tones. Yellow Fuse: You can make out the two tones but they are somewhat confused and image seperately. Black/Red: The two tones are easy to distinguish and are on top of each other as they would be coming from the same fiddle. I am going on his word (Which I believe he is honestly reporting what he heard). I want to get some an try for myself and see what happens. Fuses are scary stuff. They are designed to fail. At any moment 100's or 1000's of dollars could go up in smoke.

One other comment he made that I will share. He is using a power cable that is second from the top with the yellow fuse. He felt that going with the red/black and the power cable that is 3rd from the top (1 level down) performed better. So buying the red/back fuse and the power cable a level down sounded better for less money than just the more expensive power cord. Less total cost. I hope that made sense.