Has anyone moved on from idlers, Garrards??

[kozzmo]

Hi,

I have been running idlers for almost 25 years now, back when I got my first 301 in 2001 we compared it to my Nottingham Spacedeck and the 301 was just so much more fun that I completely abandoned belt drives altogether. However back then I was a DIY, horns, vintage guy and things like delicacy, "air", soundstage, imagining..they weren't even close to being in my vocabulary. Now that I run off the shelf hi resolution gear for better or for worse those terms are now part of my listening experience and are ever in my thoughts! So its got me thinking about what am I maybe missing running my current modified 401 vs. not having a decent belt drive table. Has anyone here had a modified or at least non rumbling idler that they have decided they like belt drives better? Anyone have both side by side and care to comment on what each does better than the other, especially in terms of the audiophile terms like soundstage etc...?

My current 401 is in slate with an oversized platter and bearing made by someone over in the vinyl asylum forum a long time ago, also it has an Audio Silente Idler and funkfirm mat.

 

[Solypsa]

A well setup 401, as yours appears to be, is quite a nice thing

Considering direct drives?

 

[Folsom]

I'd talk to Bonzo about amps before I'd get rid of that beauty.

Although I'd strongly suggest a move to a metal mat (I posted about custom ones awhile back). I see no good reason to put vinyl on rock.

 

[Robert Young]

I’m running two idlers (a restored Thorens TD 124, and a slate-plinthed two-arm Lenco L74/PTP 6). A Teres 340 tape drive sits in a crate in the basement. As superb as the Teres was, the idlers are a couple of notches beyond. Could explain why Chris Brady (Teres) developed a rim drive for his ‘tables after being committed to the belt drive concept.

That 401 is a beauty. Go splurge on a Tedeska from Solypsa and you’ll be amazed….

 

[Folsom]

TD124 is hybrid. A damn good one though.

I've got a Lenco as well. No plans to get rid of it anytime soon. I'd add a Garrard if a too good to pass opportunity popped up.

 

[kozzmo]

A well setup 401, as yours appears to be, is quite a nice thing

Considering direct drives?

I heard the sp10r at a show and it didn't sound that good but it was at a show, but it's been on my radar for sure. I did have an sp10mk2 for a little while but I've always found them to sound cool to my ear

 

[kozzmo]

I'd talk to Bonzo about amps before I'd get rid of that beauty.

Although I'd strongly suggest a move to a metal mat (I posted about custom ones awhile back). I see no good reason to put vinyl on rock.

I happy with my electronics.

 

[Solypsa]

I heard the sp10r at a show and it didn't sound that good but it was at a show, but it's been on my radar for sure. I did have an sp10mk2 for a little while but I've always found them to sound cool to my ear

Sp10mk2 is certainly a bit cool/gray, at least in stock form. I've had one for many many years. sounds OK in a massive plywood plinth ( maybe adds some bloom?) with an FR64S tho...

There are others these days

 

[kozzmo]

Sp10mk2 is certainly a bit cool/gray, at least in stock form. I've had one for many many years. sounds OK in a massive plywood plinth ( maybe adds some bloom?) with an FR64S tho...

There are others these days

"There are others these days" true!

 

[Robert Young]

TD124 is hybrid. A damn good one though.

I've got a Lenco as well. No plans to get rid of it anytime soon. I'd add a Garrard if a too good to pass opportunity popped up.

Yes, though as a hybrid, a rather miniscule group, people seem to choose to put it into their preferred category.

i’m still looking for a 301 i can afford. Because i need another turntable.

really. I do.

 

[adrianywu]

I have not yet heard a belt drive TT I can afford that comes close to my modified 301. Over the years, I have upgraded the chassis, idler, main bearing and platter. So the only original parts are the links and the motor, and the motor has also been rebuilt. I am using a gun metal mat. I can't really detect any weakness that warrants an upgrade, but if I have the money (and space), I would love to have an EMT 927.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi,

I have been running idlers for almost 25 years now, back when I got my first 301 in 2001 we compared it to my Nottingham Spacedeck and the 301 was just so much more fun that I completely abandoned belt drives altogether. However back then I was a DIY, horns, vintage guy and things like delicacy, "air", soundstage, imagining..they weren't even close to being in my vocabulary. Now that I run off the shelf hi resolution gear for better or for worse those terms are now part of my listening experience and are ever in my thoughts! So its got me thinking about what am I maybe missing running my current modified 401 vs. not having a decent belt drive table. Has anyone here had a modified or at least non rumbling idler that they have decided they like belt drives better? Anyone have both side by side and care to comment on what each does better than the other, especially in terms of the audiophile terms like soundstage etc...?

My current 401 is in slate with an oversized platter and bearing made by someone over in the vinyl asylum forum a long time ago, also it has an Audio Silente Idler and funkfirm mat.

Based on your post, you seem satisfied with the 401. You don’t seem like an OCDed audiophile who is looking to compare each attribute of different tables and find something better. The question you are asking is going to solicit a lot of different opinions, and you can spend a fortune validating those opinions, or just pick your random choice of internet stranger, including one who agrees wholeheartedly with you that Garrards are the best.

It also depends on who has restored your TD 124 vs Garrard, as that can influence preference.

Those who restore both Garrards and commonwealth will tell you that the CW is better than Garrards on all fronts, just more of the same.

With belts, there are many belts, you can spend all the way upto 450k on belts (Some poor or unnecessarily premium-ed ones across that range, some with certain attributes spotlighted that you might like). Lots of variations and combos possible there.

If budget is a concern, I wouldn’t change, I would keep the Garrard and save up to add the DaVa field coil cart on it. It would give you one of the highest resolutions possible through an analog front end without losing out on what you like about idlers, especially given that the Dava designer uses both Garrard and Commonwealth.

Personally if I had a lot of money I would buy two tables, the Vyger (belt drive) with the Red Sparrow cart and a restored Commonwealth with the DaVa field coil cart.

If budget was a concern I would stick to Lenco/TD 124/Garrard with a SPU, and with more money add the DaVa which fits on same headshell as the SPU. If you were mostly into rock and amplified, and/or are not into spending on high quality LPs, you don’t need any upgrade beyond this. Even for classical, only the most OCDed need another TT.

Audio Silente himself make the graphite based Blackstone idler which sounds quite better and much higher resolution than his TD 124. I cannot tell you how it compares to belts

 

[kozzmo]

Based on your post, you seem satisfied with the 401. You don’t seem like an OCDed audiophile who is looking to compare each attribute of different tables and find something better. The question you are asking is going to solicit a lot of different opinions, and you can spend a fortune validating those opinions, or just pick your random choice of internet stranger, including one who agrees wholeheartedly with you that Garrards are the best.

It also depends on who has restored your TD 124 vs Garrard, as that can influence preference.

Those who restore both Garrards and commonwealth will tell you that the CW is better than Garrards on all fronts, just more of the same.

With belts, there are many belts, you can spend all the way upto 450k on belts (Some poor or unnecessarily premium-ed ones across that range, some with certain attributes spotlighted that you might like). Lots of variations and combos possible there.

If budget is a concern, I wouldn’t change, I would keep the Garrard and save up to add the DaVa field coil cart on it. It would give you one of the highest resolutions possible through an analog front end without losing out on what you like about idlers, especially given that the Dava designer uses both Garrard and Commonwealth.

Personally if I had a lot of money I would buy two tables, the Vyger (belt drive) with the Red Sparrow cart and a restored Commonwealth with the DaVa field coil cart.

If budget was a concern I would stick to Lenco/TD 124/Garrard with a SPU, and with more money add the DaVa which fits on same headshell as the SPU. If you were mostly into rock and amplified, and/or are not into spending on high quality LPs, you don’t need any upgrade beyond this. Even for classical, only the most OCDed need another TT.

Audio Silente himself make the graphite based Blackstone idler which sounds quite better and much higher resolution than his TD 124. I cannot tell you how it compares to belts

Honestly I have plenty of the OCD thing going on! I guess I'm just curious what a decent belt drive would do compared with what I'm running. I have pretty solidly invested in idlers now for 20+ years and have lost that perspective more than anything else. One thing has also occurred to me, theres a lot of moving parts with a Garrard and mine has been serviced at different intervals over the years and maybe needs a thorough going over. I last messed with the motor in 2005. So it might night be as idler whhel like as it used to be

 

[bonzo75]

Honestly I have plenty of the OCD thing going on! I guess I'm just curious what a decent belt drive would do compared with what I'm running. I have pretty solidly invested in idlers now for 20+ years and have lost that perspective more than anything else. One thing has also occurred to me, theres a lot of moving parts with a Garrard and mine has been serviced at different intervals over the years and maybe needs a thorough going over. I last messed with the motor in 2005. So it might night be as idler whhel like as it used to be

many idlers are restored so have changes from stock.

there are just too many types of belts. There are often sonically more differences between belts then between a belt and an idler. You might prefer one belt and your Garrard and not a few other belts.

so, if you really want to know that difference you will have to listen to many belts with different arms and carts.

broadly, I would say the good belts have more note to note continuity, more resolution than a vintage idler, and a timing and rhythm to match, though might sound different. They won’t always have a big sound like an idler, but will when required. Alternatively the bad ones might not sound as exciting, too laid back, compared to the idler

 

[Be Quiet...Listen]

Some time ago I had a Garrard 401 (fully refurbed, great plinth, top notch MI cart and 12' arm). Enjoyed it very much but wasn't thrilled by it and really couldn't put my finger on why. Sold it, bought a Kuzma Stabi M and immediately got everything I was missing from the 401. I have since bought a Verdier La Platine also and have six arms at my disposal.
While I have a Thorens TD 124 (given to myself by a very close friend) project on the bench, my foray with high end attempts at idler drive decks are looking very much in my rear view nowadays.

 

[Rensselaer]

My Garrard 301 has rebuilt but stock engine and linkage, the rest modified by Classic Turntable Company into something I would put up against every turntable I have ever heard. There may be some that I haven't heard yet that might be better, but at what cost?

 

[kozzmo]

My Garrard 301 has rebuilt but stock engine and linkage, the rest modified by Classic Turntable Company into something I would put up against every turntable I have ever heard. There may be some that I haven't heard yet that might be better, but at what cost?

do you have new bearing and platter too??

 

[bonzo75]

Some time ago I had a Garrard 401 (fully refurbed, great plinth, top notch MI cart and 12' arm). Enjoyed it very much but wasn't thrilled by it and really couldn't put my finger on why. Sold it, bought a Kuzma Stabi M and immediately got everything I was missing from the 401. I have since bought a Verdier La Platine also and have six arms at my disposal.
While I have a Thorens TD 124 (given to myself by a very close friend) project on the bench, my foray with high end attempts at idler drive decks are looking very much in my rear view nowadays.

what are the 6 arms and carts?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I moved from all outed 301 to silk thread driven Melco and never looked back

 

[mtemur]

I owned and fiddled Thorens TD124, Lenco L70 in the past. I didn’t own but heard Garrard 301/401 many times in different arm cartridge combinations. They’re all good tables. IMHO Lenco has the best potential among them. When you move to a well designed and built belt drive everything becomes so much refined and real, you can not go back. For me it was La Platine Verdier.