Ron’s New System

[PeterA]

not sure i'm saying what you are saying, but maybe.

when i say that far field listening position tends more to have an 'over there' perspective relatively, it's that the music can't quite be as immersive (by degrees) as it can be near field. not exactly the same thing as the "you are there" or "they are here" idea. but far field<->near field will influence degrees of presentation differences.

and there are matters of taste....not everyone likes a super holographic immersive presentation. or has not been able to get comfortable with it....yet.

to me ideally....in a perfect reproduction world......in my system it's the recording that tends to determine whether the players are in my room with me, or we are at the venue......or "third choice" neither is going on. just a 'meh' recording where presence clues are lacking (might still be great music) and hard to pin down things. my system can do the intimate, and the mid scale, and large and really large scale. and all at a high level. i'll admit it took a decade to achieve high performance levels with intimate recordings in my new room, equal of better than my old smaller room. doing both is the trick.

i agree that certain systems......say the 'classic' SET/Efficient Speaker with limited bandwidth is gong to tend toward the 'they are here' sort of intimate presentation. and the big box speaker solid state amp low noise high dynamics system will tend toward taking you to the venue by lighting up the corners and adding to the sense of space. so two alternate system characters. and so not every recording is completely served to be all it can be. not saying that this means that there is anything wrong, only different strengths of presentation with many/most systems. plenty of systems are effective doing both, but it's a big challenge to get it done. most cannot.

so my view is that my nearfield listening position, system and room tune situation, does allow for each recording to reach it's ideal presentation potential.....whatever that might be. far field is less capable all other things being equal.

I think this depends on one’s personal goals for his listening experience in his room. I don’t think far field is less capable all other things being equal. There tends to be more room influence in far field, just like in the concert hall. And I don’t think sitting near field is the only way to achieve great presence and an enveloping listening experience. It all depends on the system, the room, set up, and the recording. If you want to hear just what’s on the recording, minimize the effect of the room and optimize the system and it’s set up. I also don’t think this has to do much with typology.

my SET and high-efficiency horn system is very dynamic and does not favor an intimate “they are here“ type of presentation. It is just as convincing at putting me there in front of the live jazz quartet or large scale classical orchestra presentation.

Mike, this might be how you experience it in your room, but this does not hold in general terms across all systems and rooms and seating positions.

I do agree with you that Nearfield tends to lessen the impact of the room, and in that sense one might hear more of the characteristics of individual recordings, but Nearfield can also affect the presentation in ways that alters what’s on the recording.

fortunately, in my ipinionthere are many ways to approach the hobby and realize a large variety of personal goals for how one wants his music to be presented in his room.

 

[PeterA]

I totally disagree. People who experience live music end up with all sorts of hifi, from Bose to Magico to vintage horns. That is a whole another discussion that has been had.

I have heard the same system sounding bad with digital and bad records, and sounding great with originals and quality records. I prefer such systems, rather than one where bad quality recordings and good quality recordings both drive you to a good judgement of the system.

You could make it personal about my evolution, but that’s just the thing. It’s an evolution. I went through previous systems and ended with where I am now.

this is about Ron‘s thread and Ron‘s visitors impressions. As far as they all reported, they listened to all formats. There was some discussion about recordings, but surely they are not your specific high-quality vinyl recordings from the Golden Era. This is a class a case of different people having different approaches to auditions and you trying to impose your standard on others and then criticizing them for not following what you do.

I respect Lloyd’s, Al’s, and Ian’s written comments about their impressions of Ron system. I do agree with you that videos to supplement those written comments would be helpful to the rest of us.

you do make an interesting point about Ron having a history of avoiding excessive high frequency energy in a presentation. It seems a bit ironic after his long journey to end up here without admission. On the other hand, he has assured me in various private conversations that he loves the sound of his system right now.

 

[bonzo75]

i agree that certain systems......say the 'classic' SET/Efficient Speaker with limited bandwidth is gong to tend toward the 'they are here' sort of intimate presentation.

This is not correct. Certain coloured efficient systems do that, but the best SETs horns are the most transparent to recordings - so you are there quite a high number of recordings from Decca etc. They will do they are here on some intimate chamber and jazz. Not only horns but also Devore Orangutans are very transparent to the you are there and they are here factor with a suitable amp.

 

[bonzo75]

You could make it personal about my evolution, but that’s just the thing. It’s an evolution. I went through previous systems and ended with where I am now.

This is not personal, it is quite general. People who go to live are in different stages of evolution of hifi.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is not correct. Certain coloured systems do that, but the best SETs horns are the most transparent to recordings - so you are there quite a high number of recordings from Decca etc. They will do they are here on some intimate chamber and jazz.

what i said was that "the 'classic' SET/High Efficient Speaker with limited bandwidth is gong to tend toward the 'they are here' sort of intimate presentation". with accents around the word 'classic'.

not all SET/high efficiency systems are limited bandwidth or limited to 'they are here'.....but the 'classic' ones are more that way.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think this depends on one’s personal goals for his listening experience in his room. I don’t think far field is less capable all other things being equal. There tends to be more room influence in far field, just like in the concert hall. And I don’t think sitting near field is the only way to achieve great presence and an enveloping listening experience. It all depends on the system, the room, set up, and the recording. If you want to hear just what’s on the recording, minimize the effect of the room and optimize the system and it’s set up. I also don’t think this has to do much with typology.

my SET and high-efficiency horn system is very dynamic and does not favor an intimate “they are here“ type of presentation. It is just as convincing at putting me there in front of the live jazz quartet or large scale classical orchestra presentation.

Mike, this might be how you experience it in your room, but this does not hold in general terms across all systems and rooms and seating positions.

I do agree with you that Nearfield tends to lessen the impact of the room, and in that sense one might hear more of the characteristics of individual recordings, but Nearfield can also affect the presentation in ways that alters what’s on the recording.

fortunately, in my ipinionthere are many ways to approach the hobby and realize a large variety of personal goals for how one wants his music to be presented in his room.

when/if you visit me we can play around. everything is relative.

notice i use the word "relatively" when i compare listening position choices. not limiting what either can do except in comparison. and agree there are many roads to go down. but in any system near field and far field will have somewhat consistent differences.

 

[bonzo75]

not all SET/high efficiency systems are limited bandwidth or limited to 'they are here'.....but the 'classic' ones are more that way.

Some classic ones might but many don't. It is a function of the dispersion of the horn used, the electronics, the old ones often have different crossovers. Classic isn't stock common sound.

 

[bonzo75]

you do make an interesting point about Ron having a history of avoiding excessive high frequency energy in a presentation. It seems a bit ironic after his long journey to end up here without admission. On the other hand, he has assured me in various private conversations that he loves the sound of his system right now.

Tbh, I don't see how Zyx, Aesthetix IO Eclipse, and Jadis get bright unless the amp is driving it improperly or there is some other mismatch in the masala of electronics. Krells on Apogees did not sound bright.

Probably he should try the Gryphon amps on the speaker before he tries EQ. If that fails, he should just go Tannoy or something with the Jadis.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have some occasional tinnitus and hearing damage, very likely from loads of concerts my father took me to in the 1980s. I believe that the hearing damage has petrified into me being very sensitive to sound (voices and instruments) in the 4kHz to 6kHz region.

As you know I have struggled with what I perceive subjectively to be a slight edginess in the 4kHz to 6kHz region of my stereo system. Interestingly I hear this edginess more than anyone else hears it.

I spent this afternoon and evening playing with a Schitt Loki Max on the big stereo.

Here are the current settings:

120Hz +2dB

400Hz +2.4

6kHz -3.6dB

While the 4kHz to 6kHz edginess is totally gone, I also like the additional bit of warmth from raising the upper bass to lower midrange region.

I am hearing a slight diminution in transparency through the Loki Max. (On its own terms the Loki Max is a fantastic product at a very reasonable price!) I assume EveAnna Manley's Mid Frequency EQ device would be more transparent than the Loki Max.

Anything is possible when you listening to music; In the past, all good amplifiers had a tone control on board. Then came the high end. We were told that it was the work of the devil that the signal path had to be short. For example, it helps to achieve a good end result in poorer recordings or unfavorable spatial influences. If it is technically well implemented, it has little influence or if you don't need it, you switch it off. There are so many old amplifiers that can keep up with modern devices in terms of sound. If people had asked more again today, there would definitely be a tone control again and probably even technically better.

 

[Argonaut]

I'm not interested in a pointless definitional debate, so I deleted "ultra" from my post. I should not have used a potentially inflammatory term for no good reason.

Now why did this movie pop into my mind … https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067588/

 

[morricab]

This is true but it can sound better than 90 - 95% of systems which have issues, i.e. where due to room speaker mismatch, electronics mismatch, etc the system needs fixes. EQ allows you to easily fix it and make the whole thing relaxing like the problem has gone away. It also takes away tonal purity and some emotion but on amplified female vocals this will be less/possibly not make a difference, you might just notice change in balance that you have lost the hardness. But it is just a fix, and useful for all digital systems. But for an all out analog system, passive is required to excel.

Here are some videos of a well done horn system using Accuphase filter.

What do you mean Accuphase filter? A digital crossover or their digital EQ?

 

[morricab]

Please read what I wrote. I am not talking about your ears or about ears in general.

I am talking about the sensitivity my ears have in a particular frequency range.

And you are sure that Gryphon did not already implement a passive notch filter? It is fundamental to the use of BG drivers.

 

[Johan K]

I have some occasional tinnitus and hearing damage, very likely from loads of concerts my father took me to in the 1980s. I believe that the hearing damage has petrified into me being very sensitive to sound (voices and instruments) in the 4kHz to 6kHz region.

As you know I have struggled with what I perceive subjectively to be a slight edginess in the 4kHz to 6kHz region of my stereo system. Interestingly I hear this edginess more than anyone else hears it.

I spent this afternoon and evening playing with a Schitt Loki Max on the big stereo.

Here are the current settings:

120Hz +2dB

400Hz +2.4

6kHz -3.6dB

While the 4kHz to 6kHz edginess is totally gone, I also like the additional bit of warmth from raising the upper bass to lower midrange region.

I am hearing a slight diminution in transparency through the Loki Max. (On its own terms the Loki Max is a fantastic product at a very reasonable price!) I assume EveAnna Manley's Mid Frequency EQ device would be more transparent than the Loki Max.

Well done Ron,

I actually use a Schiit Loki (original 4 band EQ) to my headphone setup. I like it a lot! Love the possibilities to be able to change the sound to my preference when listen in my headphones. I find the Schiit products very handy and convenient…. -and by the way: It is always fun to play around with the stereo system, as it is our expensive toy, and not a ming vase, right?! Before the Schiit Loki, I always find listen to headphones boring, as the sound always sounded very dry and dull, no matter which headphone-amp or headphones I used.

Nowadays,
-very early in the mornings, when wife’y still asleep, I like to sneek into the audioroom and listen to my headphones… Schiit Loki becomes a nice companion .

/ Jk

 

[Argonaut]

know what you mean because Ron shared a “polite“ report after he visited me with my old system. He did not report truthfully what he thought about what he heard.

Why do you consider that Ron’s considerations would be any different this time around ?

 

[Johan K]

it´s impossible to make correct curves/overlap/phase/time alignment etc with an Accupiss filter

I scream out loud here.. You must have heard my laughter all the way to Norway, Leif ?!

/ Jk

 

[Argonaut]

It is just as convincing at putting me there in front of the live jazz quartet or large scale classical orchestra presentation.

Having lived with your transducers for nearly two years I would concur with the first genre consideration , as to the second part Nope … not a chance !

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Ron, can you show measurements which illustrate this 4-6K Hz issue in your system/room, or are you saying that even with a flat response, your ears will sense in issue in this range because of your tinnitus and so this range needs to be attenuated?

Do you hear this in other systems too?

I believe I can relate to what Ron is saying and yes I hear it in all systems I listen to. I believe it to be in this same range as Ron and it is a beast that takes on a life of its own and its amplified and distorted at times, very annoying .

In my case I blame it on being young and dumb and refusing to use hearing protection while using air hammers and die grinders in a past life. I also have a very hard time hearing people talk in a crowded room.
The being said if an eq device removes that or for that matter makes a system float your boat who cares what anyone else thinks
.
I hear what I hear in all systems and I learned long ago to keep my mouth shut as I know its not a system thing, its a me thing but damn its annoying.

If I find a device to make it go away for me, its being put in my system and would not care what anyone thinks.

 

[Al M.]

Anything is possible when you listening to music; In the past, all good amplifiers had a tone control on board. Then came the high end. We were told that it was the work of the devil that the signal path had to be short. For example, it helps to achieve a good end result in poorer recordings or unfavorable spatial influences. If it is technically well implemented, it has little influence or if you don't need it, you switch it off. There are so many old amplifiers that can keep up with modern devices in terms of sound. If people had asked more again today, there would definitely be a tone control again and probably even technically better.

Yeah, everyone uncritically fell for some dogma that the cult leaders of the high end pronounced, no questions asked.

I do have a high-quality tone control on my Octave preamp. I practically never use it, however . It's usually in bypass mode.

But:
It does come in super handy with some anemic rock recordings. Why would you not want to have a tone control for such occasions? It's the difference between unlistenable crap sound and enjoyment.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Also the "shortest path" thing in High End Audio does not exist with 42 boxes and 23 miles of cables just to get a signal from source to speakers lol

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yeah, everyone uncritically fell for some dogma that the cult leaders of the high end pronounced, no questions asked.

I do have a high-quality tone control on my Octave preamp. I practically never use it, however . It's usually in bypass mode.

But:
It does come in super handy with some anemic rock recordings. Why would you not want to have a tone control for such occasions? It's the difference between unlistenable crap sound and enjoyment.

+1
Today tone control is just hidden somewhere else. Tubes are offered in circuits that are actually not suitable for that circut to produce different sound or amplifiers with adjustable feedback. Now you could question whether this has more of a bad influence than a tone control switch with a capacitor where, for example, +2dB sets the bass. If I were Ron, I would buy a used Sansui amplifier and try it out in his chain. has a suitable tone control for the area he needs and see if he likes it. The amplifier has excellent tonality that should satisfy even tube lovers. Zoom in picture.

P.S
the amp have pre out he can it used as preamp with jadis.