Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

sbnx · Mar 22, 2024

caesar said:
Hi Sbnx,
Hopefully back to topic now.... Nice post...

As someone with a more technical understanding of things, do you happen to know why Avantgarde's rendering of the Attack aspect of the musical envelope is so realistic? I haven't experienced anything like that from any other speaker. Surely, it ain't luck.

I don't know. But they are German and I don't think they believe in luck.

They are about science and hard work. (Perhaps that is a little stereotypical. But I know quite a few German people and this description fits) My guess is that the one thing horn speakers have in common is high efficiency. The drivers barely have to move to play loud. Barely moving would mean they get there faster and this translates to attack. How AG does it differently compared to other horns I don't know as I have not gone down that rabbit hole.

adyc · Mar 22, 2024

C

sbnx said:
Ok. I was using this track to illustrate to the group how audible phase polarity is. They all heard it and were pretty astounded. This is kind of a funny story.

When the system was finally "done" my wife said "So, can I go listen to some music now?". (She has been patiently waiting for over a year.) She went in and promptly pulled up Metallica. I was sitting beside her on the sofa. She was underwhelmed and I could see it on her face and I could hear it in the system. At first I was like "what's the deal here?" Then it dawned on me to check phase. As soon as I pressed the phase invert button Metallica showed up in the room. The bass released and the band was there. My wife exclaimed "What did you just do?" I had to explain it to her. Now she is a polarity button junkie. Anytime she listens to a song she checks the polairty.

So, for those of you that listen to Metallica (AKA The black album) take note that it is inverted polarity.

Can I ask whether this YouTube short video is correct or incorrect phase polarity?

sbnx · Mar 22, 2024

Sorry, I have no idea when he recoded it. I played the first 30 sec or so several times letting them get a grip on in and out of phase.

thomask · Mar 22, 2024

PeterA said:
METTALICA on AVANT GARDE TRIO ! #audiophile

youtube.com

I had listened to Trio at Seoul, Korea two years ago.

Source was Aurender N30, MSB Select II.

Amp was Rotel Mitchi.

The room was large 40 wide 30 deep 15 ft high.

It sounds very dynamic with clarity and good details.

The only bothering thing to me is occasional hard edges.

It must be very tricky to sep up.

Congratulation on setting it up proper.

My version of Metalica.

LL21 · Mar 22, 2024

caesar said:
Hi LL,
Very nice post. Can you please elaborate on this: " And by my experience at that sound pressure level, most speakers would give you a sense they were playing loudly"?

Thanks

Hi Caesar,

In my experience, when you start to crank most speakers, there comes a point when the speaker is straining to move that much air without sounding 'stressed'...like when you play earphones too loud and the cones literally 'buckle'. In a room as large as the one I was litening in (45' x 35' x 15' or so), a lot of speakers would not be able to fill that room so effortlessly and without any sense of strain or that the system was really even trying.

LL21 · Mar 22, 2024

caesar said:
Once again, surprised Avantgarde has not crossed their "T"s and dotted their "I"s to make sure this treble thing is not a distraction to many folks who find Avantgardes "bright", "aggressive", etc.

Thank goodness Sbnx has figured this out... I think Avantgarde should credit his purchase price for performing this service

I dont think AG are necessarily to fault here. From the moment you hear the AG Trio there is an exacting quality to the sound. It is so effortless, details, nuances and all manner of subtleties appear in the music, and it dawns on you how careful one needs to be with a system so capable of reflecting subtle set up changes.

As a result, when in a store, where people are probably asking for gear switches a few times a day...'putting it all back to the millimeter' cannot be very easy. And in that store, when I mentioned it, the person was gracious enough to agree, simply saying the speakers are a big challenge to setup because their sound is so capable of reflecting micro-nuances.

While often times people refer to a speaker with this exacting requirement of setup as 'ruthlessly revealing'. Honestly, I cannot say whether the AG Trio G3 is 'ruthless' in its revelatory power...but I can say, that this sense that you are hearing everything effortless and that it is therefore exceptionally demanding of paying attention to all the details of system and setup...is immediate (at least that was one of my first instinctive reactions.) I genuinely like these speakers a lot, and I could imagine SBNX having create a sublime sound with them because he is so exacting.

Tam Lin · Mar 22, 2024

sbnx said:
Ok. I was using this track to illustrate to the group how audible phase polarity is. They all heard it and were pretty astounded. This is kind of a funny story.

When the system was finally "done" my wife said "So, can I go listen to some music now?". (She has been patiently waiting for over a year.) She went in and promptly pulled up Metallica. I was sitting beside her on the sofa. She was underwhelmed and I could see it on her face and I could hear it in the system. At first I was like "what's the deal here?" Then it dawned on me to check phase. As soon as I pressed the phase invert button Metallica showed up in the room. The bass released and the band was there. My wife exclaimed "What did you just do?" I had to explain it to her. Now she is a polarity button junkie. Anytime she listens to a song she checks the polairty.

So, for those of you that listen to Metallica (AKA The black album) take note that it is inverted polarity.

adyc said:
C

Can I ask whether this YouTube short video is correct or incorrect phase polarity?

sbnx said:
Sorry, I have no idea when he recoded it. I played the first 30 sec or so several times letting them get a grip on in and out of phase.

If the phase effect was obvious to everyone who listened, why can't you determine the phase in effect for each 30sec sound bite that was recorded by listening to it?

joey_v · Mar 22, 2024

Tam Lin said:
If the phase effect was obvious to everyone who listened, why can't you determine the phase in effect for each 30sec sound bite that was recorded by listening to it?

Are you saying phase has no effect on the sound?

sbnx · Mar 22, 2024

It is hard to tell over youtube with headphones. It is extremely easy to tell in the room. 90% of the time I can tell even off axis, sitting to the right or left of the listener. The easiest way to tell is feeling how the bass releases. Cant really get this with headphones. Then there is high frequency edgyness. Maybe edgyness is not the right word but it just sounds wrong. Then there is vocals. Out of phase is typically nasally sounding. Push the invert button an the singerwill sound much more natural.

i listened carefully with my bone conducting headphones. If i had to guess i would say Mike’s recording sounds correct.

@thomask did you record with normal (0) polarity or inverted?

I can try and make two recordings and see if it comes through.

adyc · Mar 22, 2024

Tam Lin said:
If the phase effect was obvious to everyone who listened, why can't you determine the phase in effect for each 30sec sound bite that was recorded by listening to it?

I found the bass is quite underwhelming. I thought it is recorded inverted. Just want confirmation. But I am the person who don’t believe one can judge a system properly by listening to a video. So my comment is not in any way to say G3 is bass shy.

Al M. · Mar 23, 2024

adyc said:
I found the bass is quite underwhelming. I thought it is recorded inverted. Just want confirmation. But I am the person who don’t believe one can judge a system properly by listening to a video. So my comment is not in any way to say G3 is bass shy.

This album, the Black Album, doesn't have much bass. I can hear the difference between this one and "...And Justice For All" even on the car radio. But I should try phase inversion on my system to see how that goes.

Yes, you can't judge from a video.

bonzo75 · Mar 23, 2024

Al M. said:
This album, the Black Album, doesn't have much bass. I can hear the difference between this one and "...And Justice For All" even on the car radio. But I should try phase inversion on my system to see how that goes.

Yes, you can't judge from a video.

if he is judging lack of bass and the video was with inverted Polarity, the video is working. Maybe you can hear bass in room when he plays it with inverted polarity. The unforgiven video on the Altec 604 is also from the black album and has much higher bass, there is no woofer it is a coax driver

bonzo75 · Mar 23, 2024

Kozak170 · Mar 23, 2024

sbnx said:
Ok. I was using this track to illustrate to the group how audible phase polarity is. They all heard it and were pretty astounded. This is kind of a funny story.

When the system was finally "done" my wife said "So, can I go listen to some music now?". (She has been patiently waiting for over a year.) She went in and promptly pulled up Metallica. I was sitting beside her on the sofa. She was underwhelmed and I could see it on her face and I could hear it in the system. At first I was like "what's the deal here?" Then it dawned on me to check phase. As soon as I pressed the phase invert button Metallica showed up in the room. The bass released and the band was there. My wife exclaimed "What did you just do?" I had to explain it to her. Now she is a polarity button junkie. Anytime she listens to a song she checks the polairty.

So, for those of you that listen to Metallica (AKA The black album) take note that it is inverted polarity.

Hello Todd,

Do you think that detecting the sonic differences on the recordings with inverted polarity is directly related to the level of transparency and resolving power of the entire system? And do you think that with a sonic microscopic speaker like Avantgarde plus the sheer accuracy of the multi-amp mode (iTron) that controls each driver independently and directly without any passive filters, the sonic differences on reverced polarity recordings can be more discernible compared to systems with more complexity and less pure or with more forgiveness?

I'm curious to know if you felt this level of sonic differences on reverced polarity recordings like Dire straits and Metallica with your previous box speakers as well?

fbhifi · Mar 23, 2024

I recently traveled to hear a very well sorted AG Trio G3 system, complete with 3 Spacehorns per side. The room size and treatments were appropriate, the electronics, including Itron and three other amplifiers of different topologies, were all reference level, countless hours had been spent on professional setup. We listened for many hours and used each of the 4 amps.

The AG Trio G3 system is the speaker equivalent of a modern F1 car- absolutely everything matters and must be correct or you won’t win the race.

Not everyone wants an F1 car.

LL21 · Mar 23, 2024

fbhifi said:
I recently traveled to hear a very well sorted AG Trio G3 system, complete with 3 Spacehorns per side. The room size and treatments were appropriate, the electronics, including Itron and three other amplifiers of different topologies, were all reference level, countless hours had been spent on professional setup. We listened for many hours and used each of the 4 amps.

The AG Trio G3 system is the speaker equivalent of a modern F1 car- absolutely everything matters and must be correct or you won’t win the race.

Not everyone wants an F1 car.

Agree. That said, I remember Roy Gregory telling me the same about the Arrakis. He has vastly more experience than I, and I am sure he is right. However, the AG Trio G3 strikes me as even more exacting and precise than the mighty Arrakis...possibly (until the AG Trios?) my favorite speaker of all time. Might still be the Arrakis from a 'practicality' standpoint, but the AG Trio G3 (to me) struck me as the first rival that would (for me) surpass it by quite a lot.

Mike Lavigne · Mar 23, 2024

LL21 said:
Agree. That said, I remember Roy Gregory telling me the same about the Arrakis. He has vastly more experience than I, and I am sure he is right. However, the AG Trio G3 strikes me as even more exacting and precise than the mighty Arrakis...possibly (until the AG Trios?) my favorite speaker of all time. Might still be the Arrakis from a 'practicality' standpoint, but the AG Trio G3 (to me) struck me as the first rival that would (for me) surpass it by quite a lot.

Think of AG Trio set up as a bulls eye you have to hit including room, signal path and sources. The margin’s for error are razor thin and unforgiving as it has no half way setting for information. Hit-able, but demanding.

Especially with the I-tron amplification.

An Arrakis grandly rewards perfect set-up but there are plenty of degrees of bliss on the path to it. It’s not blasting you on certain tracks when all is not perfect. Or the room is not just right.

LL21 · Mar 23, 2024

Mike Lavigne said:
Think of AG Trio set up as a bulls eye you have to hit including room, signal path and sources. The margin’s for error are razor thin and unforgiving as it has no half way setting for information. Hit-able, but demanding.

Especially with the I-tron amplification.

An Arrakis grandly rewards perfect set-up but there are plenty of degrees of bliss on the path to it. It’s not blasting you on certain tracks when all is not perfect. Or the room is not just right.

Thank you, Mike. I know you know them both well. That was exactly my impression/instinct, but it is nice to know from someone who actually knows.

bonzo75 · Mar 23, 2024

Mike Lavigne said:
Think of AG Trio set up as a bulls eye you have to hit including room, signal path and sources. The margin’s for error are razor thin and unforgiving as it has no half way setting for information. Hit-able, but demanding.

Especially with the I-tron amplification.

An Arrakis grandly rewards perfect set-up but there are plenty of degrees of bliss on the path to it. It’s not blasting you on certain tracks when all is not perfect. Or the room is not just right.

You are putting a lot of attention on the trios Mike. You know this forum likes to play guess Mike Lavigne’s next move

PeterA · Mar 23, 2024

With such revealing speakers, I would think differences between sources and various formats would be quite apparent. It sounds like everything matters with Trios.

Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

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