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Direct Coupled Drivers Vs Crossover

Kingrex said:
Its Bonzo, Carlos and Alrainbows fault. They got me to listen to video. I became very aware how much losses are experienced in a passive crossover. I can hear the amp and drivers have more to give. But its being held back from dynamic contrast.

I am not suffering. The last couple days I have fallen into a few vinyl sessions and sat in awe listening to Brubeck, Pepper, Peterson, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles. Floored how natural and engaging the sound it. Drums in particular. Best my system has been. Cymbals shimmer as good as I could ask for. Far better to my ears than other systems I have heard that are way more expensive. Better in detail, speed and a purity with classical and Jazz. Not better with chicks and guitars.

I know there is more to be had. Its a great foundation. I want to push more towards a horn sound without chaging my system and going to horns. I have a house to build. Our income went from massive cash flow to no cash flow. Just eating interest.

I thought I had some chokes coming. The guy can't find them. But I am hesitant to dig into a crossover. Its way above my understanding.

Years back I talked about direct coupling my amp to my Voxativ. Violin was outstanding. Then the piano hit and it fell apart. I get there is something to it and want to investigate the option.
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I’d also think it’s Ze’ev’s fault as well (he’s a great dude)… when he came up with the design concept he built in the ability (and enabled the innate audiophile urge) to explore and play with the design but both the trio and the quintet while sounding different to each other are such musically successfully engaging bits of gear that it’s also possible to go sideways by getting some partial improvement with a change while also risking unsettling the ultimate whole.

Though after a hiatus I’m back into modification mode and after I’ve resolved some other things first that can factor in on the crossover points and also the calculations on the Mh for the inductors I still have in the final sweep of mods to explore and swapping out the inductors on my still to do list… with either 8 awg Solen or the 10 awg.

Are your mid-woofers wired in parallel or in series? I’ve been keeping with series/series wired with the quintets but thinking I should at least try wiring in series and parallel as well even though with first order I have been told that series wiring is better with SET.

I’ll admit I’ve enjoyed listening to music so much these last few years with these speakers that the audiophile urge to change has become in ways more academic than required functionally… so that keeping the quintet as the reference baseline and doing the modification on the second trio platform Is the way I’ve swapped my approach to the modifications… but my design concept is to stay passive first order two way as I think (and feel) that is the middle path approach and that’s the underlying secret that maps across to my ideal of musical engagement for me even if the enmeshed sonic outcomes carry with it that as constraint as well.
 
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the sound of Tao said:
I’d also think it’s Ze’ev’s fault as well (he’s a great dude)… when he came up with the design concept he built in the ability (and enabled the innate audiophile urge) to explore and play with the design but both the trio and the quintet while sounding different to each other are such musically successfully engaging bits of gear that it’s also possible to go sideways by getting some partial improvement with a change while also risking unsettling the ultimate whole.

Though after a hiatus I’m back into modification mode and after I’ve resolved some other things first that can factor in on the crossover points and also the calculations on the Mh for the inductors I still have in the final sweep of mods to explore and swapping out the inductors on my still to do list… with either 8 awg Solen or the 10 awg.

Are your mid-woofers wired in parallel or in series? I’ve been keeping with series/series wired with the quintets but thinking I should at least try wiring in series and parallel as well even though with first order I have been told that series wiring is better with SET.

I’ll admit I’ve enjoyed listening to music so much these last few years with these speakers that the audiophile urge to change has become in ways more academic than required functionally… so that keeping the quintet as the reference baseline and doing the modification on the second trio platform Is the way I’ve swapped my approach to the modifications… but my design concept is to stay passive first order two way as I think (and feel) that is the middle path approach and that’s the underlying secret that maps across to my ideal of musical engagement for me even if the enmeshed sonic outcomes carry with it that as constraint as well.
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Are you still going to try other compression drivers? What was the horn throat size again? I think we concluded it had a Beyma driver but not their best in that size, or?
 
morricab said:
Are you still going to try other compression drivers? What was the horn throat size again? I think we concluded it had a Beyma driver but not their best in that size, or?
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Yes, other compression drivers and I think I’ve sussed out the horn to go with them as well, but just been spun out for a while by the magnet in thinking going field coils for the mtm of mid-woofers and that’s been a full on research detour… while the flow points to simpler approaches I’ve been Möbius looping back with my thinking and gravitating towards Acoustic Elegance LO (after boxing out on field coils the choice came down to the 15 inch AE dipole or the equivalent AE LO) but then the allure of field coil just refuses to go away… I am hopelessly audiophile in process.
 
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the sound of Tao said:
Yes, other compression drivers and I think I’ve sussed out the horn to go with them as well, but just been spun out for a while by the magnet in thinking going field coils for the mtm of mid-woofers and that’s been a full on research detour… while the flow points to simpler approaches I’ve been Möbius looping back with my thinking and gravitating towards Acoustic Elegance LO (after boxing out on field coils the choice came down to the 15 inch AE dipole or the equivalent AE LO) but then the allure of field coil just refuses to go away… I am hopelessly audiophile in process.
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Ah, didn’t realize you wanted to replace the four woofers too! I would have progressed step-wise and first the compression driver with same everything else assuming specs lined up with existing cd.
 
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morricab said:
Ah, didn’t realize you wanted to replace the four woofers too! I would have progressed step-wise and first the compression driver with same everything else assuming specs lined up with existing cd.
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That is definitely the program… will start out implementing just compression drivers and the horn and then go from there… just wanted to have an outline for what I wanted to trial ultimately and get my head around what I was trying to achieve so I could have targets… I’ve got a design concept now and a simple functional analysis for how I want to use the two setups for and what design precedents I’m using plus the current iteration of the large quintet stays in the setup as the benchmark to use during the process. But I will log the changes stage by stage as well… possibly make a few videos before to get started and keep the same tracks to archive some reference along the way.
 
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Zeev tried other compression drives. Someone at one time was saying there is a better one. Zeev had actually tried it. Said it was more resolving, but you never relaxed in front of it. You were always to aware. He offered to send it to me for free the try. That is part of the PAP design philosophy. A.speaker that draws you in and allows you to be taken by the music. Not a spreaker that resolves every detail.
 
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Here is an example of going active. I would love to hear this system.

The system is based upon Clarisys. I bet its way better sounding now compared to powered by CH monoblocks.

From a thread post.
The amps are the WestminsterLab Rei monoblocks (I've been using a pair of the WL Rei's for nearly a year and can attest that they are worthy of the Clarisys Auditoriums). The Rei's are replacing CH Precision M10 amps and the WL Quest preamp has replaced a CH Precision L10 preamp. I have seen a video featuring this room on YouTube (Visit to Clarisys Auditoriums + CH Precision System in Spokane, Washington)
 
Kingrex said:
Zeev tried other compression drives. Someone at one time was saying there is a better one. Zeev had actually tried it. Said it was more resolving, but you never relaxed in front of it. You were always to aware. He offered to send it to me for free the try. That is part of the PAP design philosophy. A.speaker that draws you in and allows you to be taken by the music. Not a spreaker that resolves every detail.
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That probably had more to do with the electronics used and not the driver…do you remember which one?
 
Maybe the CP855 with the PM4 diaphragm instead of the titanium.
Or maybe the CP755. I don't remember exactly.
 
Kingrex said:
Maybe the CP855 with the PM4 diaphragm instead of the titanium.
Or maybe the CP755. I don't remember exactly.
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CP755Ti is a fantastic driver ! I use them…much better than the plastic diaphragm drivers and more linear than the 855.
 
Whatever is in the horn now is very nice till you listen close. I had Scott here tuning my system. We had the horn in. It sounded good. Then we put the Coax in. After the 3rd song or so the deficiencies were heard. The coax is all around better.

A better driver on the horn might pick up the detail and balance. But then what do you need to do with the crossover.

I was just talking with JC. He has an active crossover and 3 amps to each Klipsch speaker. Says he will never go back to passive. And he is a tape and vinyl only listener. But you need 6 amps for a 3 way. Probably many ways to skin the cat.
 
morricab said:
Although not the prevailing strategy for biamping bass...I only get good integration when you use at least the same type of amp (SET, PP tube etc.) on all drivers or even the same amps on all drivers.
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The differences in the sound signature of different amp technologies are overwhelmed by those between different driver technologies. A midrange horn compression driver with a metal diaphragm has a very different character from that of a dynamic bass driver with paper pulp cone, and in fact would benefit from using different types of amps to compensate for these differences. I started with using the same differential push pull 300B monoblocks on all three drivers, and gradually changed to using a class AB transistor amp (with class A up to 10W) on the bass and a class A transistor module for the tweeters. It was a very significant upgrade that allowed me to realize the maximum potential of each driver. For example, the tweeters and the midrange benefit little from having amps with large current drive, whereas the 15" bass drivers definitely do better with amps with a low output impedance. On the other hand, the metal diaphragm of the midrange would do better with DHT than with transistors. The plasma tweeters are extended to 50kHz, and I built amp modules that extend up to that range, where the triode amps cannot reach.
 
adrianywu said:
The differences in the sound signature of different amp technologies are overwhelmed by those between different driver technologies. A midrange horn compression driver with a metal diaphragm has a very different character from that of a dynamic bass driver with paper pulp cone, and in fact would benefit from using different types of amps to compensate for these differences. I started with using the same differential push pull 300B monoblocks on all three drivers, and gradually changed to using a class AB transistor amp (with class A up to 10W) on the bass and a class A transistor module for the tweeters. It was a very significant upgrade that allowed me to realize the maximum potential of each driver. For example, the tweeters and the midrange benefit little from having amps with large current drive, whereas the 15" bass drivers definitely do better with amps with a low output impedance. On the other hand, the metal diaphragm of the midrange would do better with DHT than with transistors. The plasma tweeters are extended to 50kHz, and I built amp modules that extend up to that range, where the triode amps cannot reach.
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Well I disagree here. The signatures from electronics and speakers are not the same and the signatures of differing amp technologies has a profound effect on the overall tonal coherence in an active speaker.

I had my best experiences with all the same amp make/model but still very good experience with different make/model of amp but same topology. Especially mixing SS with tubes has proven to my experience (I have had 4 different active or semi-active systems over the years...not counting subwoofers) to be detrimental when the SS is playing well into the midrange. What I haven't tried is something like a FirstWatt amp single ended transistor amp with a SET, which might work very well...or not.
 
Kingrex said:
Whatever is in the horn now is very nice till you listen close. I had Scott here tuning my system. We had the horn in. It sounded good. Then we put the Coax in. After the 3rd song or so the deficiencies were heard. The coax is all around better.

A better driver on the horn might pick up the detail and balance. But then what do you need to do with the crossover.

I was just talking with JC. He has an active crossover and 3 amps to each Klipsch speaker. Says he will never go back to passive. And he is a tape and vinyl only listener. But you need 6 amps for a 3 way. Probably many ways to skin the cat.
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If it is another Beyma driver and the DC resistance is the same it will probably be just a drop in replacement. You have to make sure it's the same throat size of course.

My problem with most of the electronics crossovers I have tried is that they leave an electronic "fingerprint" that can be more detrimental than beneficial. In my current active system, even my Accuphase F15L (probably needs parts upgrades due to age/quality) is not sonically transparent and impacts dynamics. This is why I am now considering a Marchand tube crossover. Good value for the money supposedly and will IMO be more in line with my priorities in sound.

If you are not doing analog, then a good digital crossover that has digital outputs for each pair of drivers (like the mini-DSP nano-digi) is a good option. You need more than one DAC (or a multichannel one), however, which depending on your level of spend could get pricey.
 
morricab said:
My problem with most of the electronics crossovers I have tried is that they leave an electronic "fingerprint" that can be more detrimental than beneficial.
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I don't doubt this. But a passive is also detrimental. They are impacting the circuit in a different place. I wonder if this impacts how that detriment is heard.

Can you describe what the fingerprint on the signal is like compared to what a passive crossover does?
 
adrianywu said:
The differences in the sound signature of different amp technologies are overwhelmed by those between different driver technologies. A midrange horn compression driver with a metal diaphragm has a very different character from that of a dynamic bass driver with paper pulp cone, and in fact would benefit from using different types of amps to compensate for these differences. I started with using the same differential push pull 300B monoblocks on all three drivers, and gradually changed to using a class AB transistor amp (with class A up to 10W) on the bass and a class A transistor module for the tweeters. It was a very significant upgrade that allowed me to realize the maximum potential of each driver. For example, the tweeters and the midrange benefit little from having amps with large current drive, whereas the 15" bass drivers definitely do better with amps with a low output impedance. On the other hand, the metal diaphragm of the midrange would do better with DHT than with transistors. The plasma tweeters are extended to 50kHz, and I built amp modules that extend up to that range, where the triode amps cannot reach.
Click to expand...
I hear you Adrian. What you are saying is mirrored by what people say on the Klipsch forum. They use a SET on the mid and class A or D on the woofers and tweeter. Where you cross the woofers may be a key component. I think they are crossing around 300 hertz or below. Where do you cross yours?

I also hear many others say use the same amp.
On my speaker, I could see using a stereo amp vertically on the woofers and midrange. Then maybe a class D on the horn tweeter.
morricab said:
My problem with most of the electronics crossovers I have tried is that they leave an electronic "fingerprint" that can be more detrimental than beneficial. In my current active system, even my Accuphase F15L (probably needs parts upgrades due to age/quality) is not sonically transparent and impacts dynamics. This is why I am now considering a Marchand tube crossover. Good value for the money supposedly and will IMO be more in line with my priorities in sound.
Click to expand...


I have talked to Merchand. He needs all the points, slopes etc. My thought was a digital with infinite control to figure it out. Then get an active analog once the values are known.
 
Kingrex said:
I hear you Adrian. What you are saying is mirrored by what people say on the Klipsch forum. They use a SET on the mid and class A or D on the woofers and tweeter. Where you cross the woofers may be a key component. I think they are crossing around 300 hertz or below. Where do you cross yours?

I also hear many others say use the same amp.
On my speaker, I could see using a stereo amp vertically on the woofers and midrange. Then maybe a class D on the horn tweeter.



I have talked to Merchand. He needs all the points, slopes etc. My thought was a digital with infinite control to figure it out. Then get an active analog once the values are known.
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Yes, I have done exactly that with digital xovers in the past. A good and inexpensive one is the Behringer DCX 2496....allows tons of tuning at your fingertips to dial in everything and then you can switch to a good analog xover once you know better where to go. There is inexpensive mini-dsp stuff that will do that too but you have to interface with a computer and the Behringer is all self-contained....just doesn't sound great overall.
 
IMO,

The magic of SET’s is how it plays the bass when matched correctly to loudspeaker , SET jump and directness is lost if only using for mids/Highs, not to mention impossible to match with one voice when paired with class D ..!

Regards
 
morricab said:
Yes, I have done exactly that with digital xovers in the past. A good and inexpensive one is the Behringer DCX 2496....allows tons of tuning at your fingertips to dial in everything and then you can switch to a good analog xover once you know better where to go. There is inexpensive mini-dsp stuff that will do that too but you have to interface with a computer and the Behringer is all self-contained....just doesn't sound great overall.
Click to expand...

Behringer is horrible and grundgy sounding Morri , at any serious level you want to stay away from cheap op amps ..!


Regards
 
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