Pure Audio Project upgrades and tweaks

Starting this thread to discuss Pure Audio Project open baffle speakers, upgrades and tweaks. @Kingrex - if you have had both the horns and Coax10, I would be interested in hearing how they compare. And I copied your earlier post below.

What cables upgrades did you use? And can you share a picture of where you located the crossover? Is it attached to something else, or sitting on the floor? I was wondering about the height of the midrange/tweeter and if I should rake the front up. My system will be the Trio15 Coax10, Playback Designs MPS-8 source and Pass Int-25 amp. I'm still waiting for my walnut baffles to ship from RJ Millworkers.

You have to get the updated speaker cables. Its critical.

And , you have to separate the crossover from the frame. Again critical.

If the crossover is touching the frame, the music is very smeared from the intense physical vibration.

If you use stock, instead of upgraded cables, you loose life, air and bass. Less coherent.

The speaker is very good with these tweeks. You don't need to futz with any caps or reaistors with the Coax crossover.

You need to be patient. They take 500 hours like any speaker to break in. 2000 or a year to really be there. I actually put my coax in the basement connected to a class D amp and laptop for week and let it rip sitting on the floor. I would go dowm 3 or 4 times a day to switxh the album and volume.

Also, mine sit on a 9 inch tall very heavy block of wood that sits on fiberglass insulation. A rug would also work. Massive improvement in bass. Just shocking. And, it raises the center of the coax much closer to ear height. Otherwise its too low and like sitting in a balcony.

The fabric over the top keeps the sun from striking the driver. That is all its for.

 

The NoRez is easy to remove once applied. Save the waxed paper to put back on the sticky side. It's also easy to tune by adding and removing pieces.

The big difference from the first time I completely lined the inside of the frames and the second time was the room and amount of room treatment. In the old room that wasn't ideal in many ways and had a little bit of absorption. My theory is the ringing of the frame—I only treated the inside—added some air to the sides making the soundstage a bit more expansive.

In my new room which is fully treated, the ringing of the frame was more audible and muddied things up. New room is so far beyond what the old room was it's no contest. It's like someone competing in the Tour de France on a 1100cc super bike. No contest.

Rekt9doc, I've found the speakers are very sensitive to toe in and placement. They can go from good to outstanding with a very small change. It's possible to line everything up with great precision using a laser level with magnets to attach it to the speaker frame.

I agree with Rex, the cables provided stock leave a lot to be improved. I almost doubled the price of the Quintets with the Snake River Audio cables.

 

The NoRez is easy to remove once applied. Save the waxed paper to put back on the sticky side. It's also easy to tune by adding and removing pieces.

The big difference from the first time I completely lined the inside of the frames and the second time was the room and amount of room treatment. In the old room that wasn't ideal in many ways and had a little bit of absorption. My theory is the ringing of the frame—I only treated the inside—added some air to the sides making the soundstage a bit more expansive.

In my new room which is fully treated, the ringing of the frame was more audible and muddied things up. New room is so far beyond what the old room was it's no contest. It's like someone competing in the Tour de France on a 1100cc super bike. No contest.

Rekt9doc, I've found the speakers are very sensitive to toe in and placement. They can go from good to outstanding with a very small change. It's possible to line everything up with great precision using a laser level with magnets to attach it to the speaker frame.

I agree with Rex, the cables provided stock leave a lot to be improved. I almost doubled the price of the Quintets with the Snake River Audio cables.

Have you heard PAPs upgraded cables compared to the SRA cables? I was looking for an alternative for the cables and was thinking Neotech for all internal wires. With the SRA cables are you using the gold or silver ones?

 

I have not heard or seen in person the PAP upgraded cables. I went with the Snake River Audio Signature Series which is a combination of copper silver and gold.

 

Great thread!
View attachment 122879
I’ve done some mods to my PAP Quintets 1.6 Voxativ

I have them sitting on 3” butcher block. I have Wave Kinetics 2NS isolators Eden Sound brass footers go into the 2NS.

I used Isodamp along the frame where the baffle attaches to the baffle. I also added washers to the bolts so I could tighten the baffle to the frame tighter. The bolts were sinking into the wood so the oversized washer fixed that issue. I added washers and lock washers on the back.
View attachment 122883
View attachment 122880

This increased the resolution significantly. Everything was more clear and precise while still maintaining the rich enveloping sound.

I had Jonny from Snake River Audio make me custom cables and jumpers for the wiring.

View attachment 122881

I rebuild the crossover using an air-core inductor. I needed to go to a 10 AWG wire to keep the resistance as close to possible as the stock inductor. I also added Dave Slagle’s Speakerformer to attenuate the Voxativ driver. I’m just about to solder it in and mount it.

Adding No-Rez to the metal frame on the inside added a nice step up in overall resolution as well. Mids and highs are so clear while the bass is full and tight.
View attachment 122882
I'm thinking I'm going to cut a piece of wood to cover the hole where the crossover used to fit.

My goal with my system is to sit down and get lost in the music. I have achieved this. Have the clarity to hear all the subtle detail and nuance. The bass to lay down a good foundation. Finally the holographic presentation that has gotten to the hallucinogenic level. Some days it’s like being in a lucid dream.

My dad was telling me about an intimate concert he went to. There was one musician playing the sitar in the center of the audience encircling him. He said after a few minutes he closed his eyes, a few minutes later he was getting visions in his mind that played off of the music. This is the hallucination or psychedelic experience I’m experiencing.

Nice and very interesting mods. I have the Quintet15s incoming. A few questions, can you detail how each mod affected the sound? I am particularly curious on the Isodamp on the frames. Maybe it is possible to add a layer of Isodamp on the back of the baffles as well? Reduce the energy put into the wood.

I have 3 mods in mind once I get up and running.
1. Use some spare granite sheet I have here, and cut it to cover the baseplate.
2. Mount the crossovers on longer legs / standoffs, so they are standing on the floor (but still in the same position over the baseplate. I can enlarge the baseplate holes so the standoffs don't contact the baseplate. Obviously do this mods after finding the sweet spot for the speakers.
3. Consider the Isodamp idea.

On reducing vibration, if we add mass (granite sheet) or absorption (Isodamp) I wonder where the energy goes? It has to be converted into heat, or simply lowered in pitch. For example the metal frames vibration I imagine is higher frequency, and adding Isodamp lowers that frequency, and converts it to heat? Any thoughts on this theory.

 

Nice and very interesting mods. I have the Quintet15s incoming. A few questions, can you detail how each mod affected the sound? I am particularly curious on the Isodamp on the frames. Maybe it is possible to add a layer of Isodamp on the back of the baffles as well? Reduce the energy put into the wood.

I have 3 mods in mind once I get up and running.
1. Use some spare granite sheet I have here, and cut it to cover the baseplate.
2. Mount the crossovers on longer legs / standoffs, so they are standing on the floor (but still in the same position over the baseplate. I can enlarge the baseplate holes so the standoffs don't contact the baseplate. Obviously do this mods after finding the sweet spot for the speakers.
3. Consider the Isodamp idea.

On reducing vibration, if we add mass (granite sheet) or absorption (Isodamp) I wonder where the energy goes? It has to be converted into heat, or simply lowered in pitch. For example the metal frames vibration I imagine is higher frequency, and adding Isodamp lowers that frequency, and converts it to heat? Any thoughts on this theory.

Using Isodamp on the entire surface area where the baffle meets the frame adding washers so the bolts don't sink into the baffle is a big step up. Brought everything into focus tightened up the sound offering more detail from top to bottom. It was also the first and cheapest upgrade. Large impact.

Putting Isodamp on the back of the baffle is an interesting idea, I thought about putting some NoRez on there myself.

Cables, Yes do it!

The other mods I did are worth while too. I don't know how to rate them as I redid the crossover point to point and moved it away from the speaker.

I'm don't know how the physics work for mass loading or dampening materials. I know it changes the sound in a way I enjoy.

 

Using Isodamp on the entire surface area where the baffle meets the frame adding washers so the bolts don't sink into the baffle is a big step up. Brought everything into focus tightened up the sound offering more detail from top to bottom. It was also the first and cheapest upgrade. Large impact.

Putting Isodamp on the back of the baffle is an interesting idea, I thought about putting some NoRez on there myself.

Cables, Yes do it!

The other mods I did are worth while too. I don't know how to rate them as I redid the crossover point to point and moved it away from the speaker.

I'm don't know how the physics work for mass loading or dampening materials. I know it changes the sound in a way I enjoy.

Great, thank you for the advice. I was wondering if the Isodamp would make the contact between baffle and frame a bit wobbly? So maybe make things go in the wrong direction. I guess if the Isodamp is quite solid, it would work ok.

Frame bracing I can see may also have merits.

I had an idea, cheap and easy to do. The discussions on isolating the crossovers and moving them out of the frame. This I can see the idea, but in my case will be problematic due to physical constraints and really, the extra mess it will create. I was thinking of doing this at some point:

1. Add a granite sheet to the base plate, inside the frames, and covering the crossover cutout.
2. Mounting the crossover to sit on top of some Isodamp, thus a 'sandwich' that could reduce flex and vibration.
3. Put a bean bag on top of the crossover. This could reduce sound wave interaction and vibration from the frame. I wanted to keep the crossover parts free in space as they are stock, to allow tweaking later. Some speaker brands resort to 'potting' their crossovers. That is fine, but would be a permanent thing which I don't want to do.

Vibration control is a big and separate subject to this thread, my low knowledge level in this area limits my options. My understanding is in very simple form, adding mass reduces high frequency vibration, but probably does not kill it completely. Rather it may still vibrate, but to a lesser extent and lower in frequency. So shifting the effect lower down the frequency spectrum. I see many vibration control materials in a sandwidch of dense + light materials, which I assume will interact together and reduce the effect more than one material of the same density / mass.

If tweaking the PAP is not permanent then it see no harm in trying the effect, and reverse it if required.

Your thoughts?

 

I got all the boxes shipped to me now, so started the assembly. Everything went smoothly so far. I have to do the wiring on Monday/Tuesday. So will report back once I get them playing music.

So far the quality of the fit and finish is super, really a mature and well thought out product, and nice assembled does not look DIY at all IMO.

Even the wood baffles were numbered for wood grain matching. I ordered oiled oak and the Coax panel as bare wood, as I wanted to spray that matt back.

The Quintet15s in real life are BIG, but not deep and I think attractive that negates their size. It really looks like a wall of sound, love it TBH. See how small the (quite large) Passlab XA60.8s look.



Hifi rack to come in 4 weeks.

I will burn in the speakers and crossovers for say 6 weeks before I think about trying different values on the crossovers. The Passlabs, subs, and the DAVE all need burning in as well, so fun times ahead.

 

Looking good Legolas.

I added a jumper to my speaker bindings as the factory jumper is so small in gauge. Not sure I heard much.

I am going to try an aircore choke soon. Trying to find the right one.

 

Hi Rex
You mean the red jumper for biwire or not?
I will run 2 speaker cables, as that is what I had on the Zingalis.
Going to add the granite baseplate at the start, so I don't need to reassemble anything.
After that, maybe car insulation sheet on the frame uprights, anything else experiment later.

I'll get back later this week once I get them playing tunes.

 

I built them this far without instructions, then found the link.

 

I built them this far without instructions, then found the link.

Haaa. Not to much to mess up.

Yes, the little red jumper plug.

I use to biwire from my amp, but I did not have the exact same cable and heard some distortions. I definitely got more power, but at a cost. If I had a second set of Inakustik Air 2404 I would biwire.

I'm going to try and get by Blue Jeans to get some Iconoclass cable to lash the drivers to the crossover.

 

Next stage, before wiring them up. I had some spare Granite sheet, so made 2 x bases to fit into the Quintet15 floor plates.



I will sit these onto the metal base with a thin layers or Sikaflex. My idea is 2 or 3 different materials have different resonances, and the very nature of adding mass and rigidity should create a very effective damping base plate. They are not positioned / glued yet, so a bit out in the photo. I estimate they weight 15 kilos each.

I will varnish the edges, as this makes them 'disappear', look the same tones as the polished surface.

Then next job I will fit the car damping sheets I got on Amazon. Thanks for the tip for that one.

Then I will wire them up and play some music! I am excited, and pretty confident they will blow the Zingali horns away, which are already downstairs on movie duties LOL.

I had another idea, to mount the crossover onto the top of the granite, but put a layer if cork underneath, to create a soft-ish contact. I think this will anchor the crossover a bit. I can't mount the crossovers outside as physical aspects in my room don't allow it, not without it looking really messy.

 

Next stage, before wiring them up. I had some spare Granite sheet, so made 2 x bases to fit into the Quintet15 floor plates.

View attachment 129708View attachment 129709

I will sit these onto the metal base with a thin layers or Sikaflex. My idea is 2 or 3 different materials have different resonances, and the very nature of adding mass and rigidity should create a very effective damping base plate. They are not positioned / glued yet, so a bit out in the photo. I estimate they weight 15 kilos each.

I will varnish the edges, as this makes them 'disappear', look the same tones as the polished surface.

Then next job I will fit the car damping sheets I got on Amazon. Thanks for the tip for that one.

Then I will wire them up and play some music! I am excited, and pretty confident they will blow the Zingali horns away, which are already downstairs on movie duties LOL.

I had another idea, to mount the crossover onto the top of the granite, but put a layer if cork underneath, to create a soft-ish contact. I think this will anchor the crossover a bit. I can't mount the crossovers outside as physical aspects in my room don't allow it, not without it looking really messy.

They look great in your room Legolas… congratulations. You’re right about the shallow profile making them not seem overpowering in scale. Happy wiring and even happier tunes! Look forward to hearing more once you’ve got them in play mode.

 

Thank you Sound of Tao. Yes I am gagging to get them fired up, but work at the moment won't allow it!

Sunday I am hoping. I have the car acoustic sheet now, so will fit that as well. This is a mature product and definitely not DIY. The speaker units, esp the coax which is really heavy, the panels, crossovers, frame, it is a great package, and quite a unique way to sell a large speaker to end users. I will calm on the tweaks for a few months while I run them in and get used to the PAP sound.

The room will have 6 full curtains over the 6 French doors / windows, and the side door into the show room will have wood acoustic panels. I am thinking that may be enough. Some live / reverb may be good, not try to kill it completely. Lets see. I have a bit of movement possible re distance from the back wall, and have moved the subs into the middle instead of stuck in the corners.

I have been very interested in Dipoles for some time, glued into rooms at shows with electrostatics, and open back cone speakers, Planars like Alsyvox and Diptyque for example. Of course planars are very expensive and tend to be very wide as well, so out of my options.

Within limits, I have found a speaker has a bigger impact on the sound you get than any other component, with the caveat you need decent source and amplifiers, i.e. get that to a certain level.

I will report back, excited in an understatement LOL.

 

Next tweak
So I will try and get the wood panels mounted today that fit inside the frames. I have some car sound deadening sheet, but it has silver foil on the top and looks awful. I am instead thinking plywood and silicon bonded to the frame will do more for making it inert. It will cost peanuts, just time to cut the panels and paint them matt black. Will report back later with progress.

 

 

I also added 3 braces per frame which did not eliminate, but seemed to diminish the magnitude of said vibrations, most severe in the 45-90 hz area.

Nice. I will try this too. I have some small square hollow section aluminium tubes, and through bolts (full length bolts). I will bolt the 2 sides together, and then inject expanding foam inside the square section tube, to keep the rod solid to the tube. Already I see the inner wood sides has reduced any ringing when I tap the sides.

Of course, you can't hear ringing when I play music, I am just doing some low cost tweaks to 'solidify' the frames. A leg up you could say.

Mini Review (only 1 week in)

On the sound I am getting out of these beasts, short answer: 'SIMPLY AWESOME IN EVERY WAY' . They are easily the best sounding speakers I have heard at my place or other houses. And better than most audio show rooms, and demos I have gone to at dealers as well.

I will write a full review after burn in, but for now, generally I am hearing no box collorations (no box!), amazingly fast bass and deep bass (yes OBs can do deep bass), huge soundstage and depth of instruments, spooky vocal placements, behind me included!, massive dynamics and zero distortion played really loud, full mids (Coax driver is simply superb), clean yet smooth treble and great treble spread across the width of the room, not just listening position. I can walk around the whole room and almost no change in FR, something box speakers just cannot do.

In fact the Quintet15s play the whole room, you don't need to obsess with the seating portion, which opens up all sorts of tricks to increase the illusion of live music in your room. Previous speakers I have owned had a very small window of perfect stereo image, and outside of that it was gone (plus the dreaded room nodes).

It was a shock getting these going TBH, they do indeed play to the room, not fight with it, as in zero room nodes. It reminds me of great electrostatic panels, but more bass and more dynamics.

Anyone thinking of loking at these, go for it! Don't be fooled by the relative afforability. I would pitch these up again any speaker under 100K, no question.

More to follow...

 

PAP do play the whole room. They fill the space. There is definitely a sweet spot. But, they make good music through the room with guests over.

I too find the soundstage immense. My preamp and amps impact this quite a bit.

I have avoided damping the frame. I thought about getting a second frame so I can go back to stock when I screw it up.

Zeev made a heavy duty dense frame. He said it was more precise.

I find everything is a trade off. All speaker designers face this. They dial in a sound. These speakers do let you dial the sound in.

 

PAP do play the whole room. They fill the space. There is definitely a sweet spot. But, they make good music through the room with guests over.

I too find the soundstage immense. My preamp and amps impact this quite a bit.

I have avoided damping the frame. I thought about getting a second frame so I can go back to stock when I screw it up.

Zeev made a heavy duty dense frame. He said it was more precise.

I find everything is a trade off. All speaker designers face this. They dial in a sound. These speakers do let you dial the sound in.

I agree. And yes all speaker designs have some form of compromise. ~The current rend for narrow width cabinets and using smaller drivers, sometimes with Sode firing woofers, I am not a fan TBH.

 

New layout:


I'll move the sub to the back wall, and the Passlabs will move closer to my desk. I have a rack arriving next week, to house the DAVE, Moon amp and Paul Pang switch. I like the Passlabs sideways TBH, they are very well built. Downside is I have speaker cables down the middle of the rug.
I can live with that. Must ensure the dogs don't come in wet and do a shake down!!!

2 large indoor plants in the back corners, curtains - done. ~The system is sounding really nice, will hook up the Passlabs end next week. They are warmer and weightier mids, amazing bass control and detail. They get warm, but not unmanageable.