Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

sbnx said:
This topic has been bounced around in several threads. More recently I have been documenting some of the setup steps I have been going through with the Avangarde Trios G3's. But since overall setup optimization is more general I thought I would post some information for the interested reader.

Over on his GY8 website Roy Gregory recently wrote a few pages about the setup of a pair of WIlson AlexxV along with the partnering CH Precision electronics. I have pasted the link below. The discussion starts at the bottom of page 5 and goes through page 8. I think Roy's discussion shines a light on two things.

First is the huge amount of effort some manufactures are putting into getting good sound at a show. It takes a lot of effort for all exhibitors to box the gear, ship it, get it to the room, unbox it, assemble the system to get sound and then put in some effort for a stereo presentation. But some really are going the extra mile in an attempt to illustrate what is possible with stereo reproduction. IMO this should be the norm and we should have fewer shows so all the manufacturers and dealers aren't completely exhausted from this effort. It pains me to listent to a pair of $100K+ speakers and a system the is approaching or well exceeding $500k that really doesn't sound all that great. Then you have the youtubers or reviewers writing about how good some of these systems sound. I am not sure exactly what they are listening to.

The second point he makes is the minute detail that is put into fully optimizing a pair of Wilson AlexxV speakers. For example, very few people and maybe only one person would loosen the gantry to make perfectly align it and retorque to spec. Then using a laser level to ensure that each module is perfectly level and aligned within the gantry. I believe most would simply "assemble" the speaker by putting the modules in place and connecting the terminals. This kind of attention to micro detail is what can really push the performance envelope of a system.

gy8.eu

Hits (And Misses…) Munich High End – 2023 - Page 5 of 28 - Gy8

Updated 7th of June - TLA, Rockport and Clarysis
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The article also discusses some of the very fine adjustments made to the speakers to get them perfectly aligned to the listener. By this I don't just mean the spike/ladder adjustments for the modules mentioned in the Wilson manual , but rather very, very small adjustemens in the attitude (Toe-in, Rake & Azimuth) of the oveall speaker. A few years ago I posted a survey on what people would consider a small movement to the speaker. Only a handfull of people responded to that and some of the posts following were fairly contensious. I am not sure why this is other than a lack of having the experience of witnessing the result. The answer I would give in the survey is that if you can see the speaker move it has likely moved too far. It still completely baffles me how going over to the speaker and giving it the smallest tap can alter the sound. And not just alter it, but change the sound in a very significant way. Of course this only happens when it gets to the pointly end of the stick in the setup process. At the start of the process movements do occur in increments of 1/2" to 1" but very quickly that drops to 1/4 to 1/16" and then to less than 1mm and then down to the point where one can not physically observe that the speaker moved. The way I relate to this is the higher up in frequency you go the shorter and shorter the wavelength gets. To adjust the time arrival at higher frequencies involves an ever decreasing size of adjustment. Roy is trying to convey this sense of "preciseness" in his article. However, it is very hard to understand unless someone has seen this being done and heard the sonic response.

But one doesn't have to go the Nth degree to get improved results in their setup. Roy wrote two articles about 10 years ago that help in providing a guide for those that want to improve their sound for free. I don't know if anyone has seen these so I am posting the links below. The first is a how-to guide that walks the reader through what the various adjustments are and what the expected sonic response is to that adjustment. The second is a write-up of of a demo he did at one of the audio shows (RMAF). In this article he writes about using a group of people as observers and judges for the sound. He then uses a few music selections and goes through the setup process showing the impact of each move. This process was pretty rough (meaning there were no super fine adjustments) and good results were still obtained.

I can't imagine spending $130K on a pair of speakers and not wanting them to perform at the absolute top end of what they are capable of with the given electronics and room. A lot of audiophiles are stopping far short of achieveing the full potential of their system. Perhaps this is becasue they have not heard a solid reference point. For example, I visited a dealer this past weekend and listened to the MBL extreme system. One of the things I listened to was that same piano section from Beethoven's first piano concerto that I recorded in the youtube video. The piano runs sounded completely smeared. Now, this is at a dealer and not a show. Why are they demo'ing a system that costs a gazillion dollars that has such poor sound quality? Again, I think it is becasue the industry as a whole has a poor reference point and we all have just been accepting subpar sound.


Throwing Open the Window on System Performance: Achieving Proper Speaker Placement - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system
www.theaudiobeat.com

As a note, I have no affiliation with these individuals other than I know who they are and I know their work. No one asked me to write this and I get no compensation in any form. The only intent of the post is for those interested in exploring the posibilites of increased performance through the very detailed process of speaker placement. Although, I will admit I did rant a little about dealers and poor setup of high end system.
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Hi Sbnx,
Another excellent thread! I got to read it from the beginning.

But a question jumps into my mind right away: how much of the setup is physics to get it to sound right in the room, and how much of the setup is based on personal taste?.

Let's say, as an example, someone buys the new Avantgarde Duo Mezzo. they have have a room that is 21' x 16' x 10', so should accommodate the speakers. If they don't have room treatments, would you recommend them, and come back to setup? and if it's bare, would you set it up in the likely echo chamber?

From a personal taste perspective, someone may want a SET for their Avantgarde instead of the itron. Use vinyl / digital... Or they may want to use cables to use as the tone controls to tune to their taste.... or get a preamp they are acclimated to...

But gear aside, how would you set up the system differently based on their taste?
 
I’ve always just thought many if not most audiophiles would put quite some effort into fine tuning on dialing in speakers. I get that some like sbnx go to levels of precision way beyond most and I also really admire that professionals like Stirling Trayle can manage to optimise in a matter of a day or so and operate on a different level to most of us mortals. But I’ve never imagined that many of us aren’t putting in quite a lot of time into dialling and optimising the speakers in our systems. Some guys here seem to want to tell us all the time that most of us are incapable of a good setup and I don’t buy into really at all. It takes patience and experience sure and if you are in a position to have the magicians like Stirling do it great but doing it yourself is a rewarding commitment also. I learnt so much from the long term distributor for Magnepan in Australia who drilled into me the importance of fine precision particularly with dipole panels.

In the last 10 years I’ve owned 6 sets of speakers that I’ve carefully and (obsessively :rolleyes: or at least rigorously) set up in 4 different rooms in 2 different homes. I’d have thought for those of us who have been at this for quite a few decades would have worked at refining their process and well considered setup would not be that untypical.

I’m not fast… it usually takes me a month or two (or more) to feel I’ve optimised a setup beyond any time spent initially burning in new speakers. In that same time I’ve also trialled in another 6 speakers at home over months in those 4 rooms.

Beyond this with 3 mates I have regularly caught up with over that same timeframe I’ve probably sat in on twice as many speaker setups with them or fed back in on their setups in a range of different rooms (from medium sized to large rooms). All 3 mates have a mix of reasonably more expensive gear and both analogue and digital and all have had in plenty of amps both solid state and tube gear in that time. All three have at times utilised subwoofer setups as well. It’s been a mix of panel and box speakers with two of those mates and then mainly horn and box speakers with the other.

My own more recent speaker setups and longer term speaker trials at home have been mainly with horn or panel speakers (Magnepan 3.7 and 20.7), Tune Anima and (Pureaudioproject Trio and Quintet 15s) but with some boxes in there as well (Harbeth 30.2, 40.2 and Devore 0/96).

Every one of these speaker has benefited from careful setup but to different degrees and in different ways with speaker type and room context varying what aspects become more critical.

The dipole panels from my perspective have given by far the most feedback and been the most rewarding and excitingly three dimensional in terms of responding to setup. I love setting up with dipole panels, it’s a joy to make those final small shifts that finally then pop them into rightness. To me the dipoles have seemed to be where small incremental shifts have been most critical. That said I’ve had reasonably symmetrical and well proportioned rooms and always been in a position to bring them well out into the room (typically somewhere from 1200mm to 2100mm out from the front wall). Neither my mates nor I have ever needed to set up a dipole speaker closer than a metre out from the front wall.

The two way speakers with first order crossovers have also been more obvious to me in terms of feeding back with regards to coherence… more so than the three way or four way speakers or those with second, third or fourth order crossovers.

The panels and two way standmounts have also been critical in setup with regards to optimising for tonal balance unless they were with sub integration.

The speakers setups integrated in with subwoofers bring a range of pros and cons to the setup for me, clearly good full range tonal balance becomes much more readily possible but then coherence becomes more challenging.

In terms of small incremental moves being rewarding or more critical some speaker brands tend to be much more about finessing with surprising super critical fine tune and other speakers tend to be simply less responsive or more forgiving (depending on your viewpoint). I’d put Magnepans very much the former and the Harbeths in the latter category.
 
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caesar said:
Hi Sbnx,
Another excellent thread! I got to read it from the beginning.

But a question jumps into my mind right away: how much of the setup is physics to get it to sound right in the room, and how much of the setup is based on personal taste?.

Let's say, as an example, someone buys the new Avantgarde Duo Mezzo. they have have a room that is 21' x 16' x 10', so should accommodate the speakers. If they don't have room treatments, would you recommend them, and come back to setup? and if it's bare, would you set it up in the likely echo chamber?

From a personal taste perspective, someone may want a SET for their Avantgarde instead of the itron. Use vinyl / digital... Or they may want to use cables to use as the tone controls to tune to their taste.... or get a preamp they are acclimated to...

But gear aside, how would you set up the system differently based on their taste?
Click to expand...
Hello Caesar,

A room 21'X16'X10' is not a problem at all. At the SouthWest Audio Fest I setup the Duo GT's. The room was 19'X14'X9'. It sounded great. Although a room may not have acoustic treatments I would assume it has normal furnishings etc. For example, a rug on the floor, chair/sofa, window curtain etc. So it is really not an echo chamber. Most normal, furnished rooms have an RT60 in the 0.5 range which it very manageable. Horns also make the setup much easier compred with other types of speakers because of their directivity. There is less sound spraying to the sides and behind the speaker.

The speaker setup is 95% "physics" and 5% personal taste. The setup process is about organizing the sound and making it work with the room. The personal tast part is small by comparison. I mean everyone wants mostly the same stuff...right. We all want controlled, detailed, textured bass. We all want great, accurate tone. We all want silky hights. We don't want any brightness. We all want a nice soundstage. etc. The personal taste might be things like a little more warmth or how high the soundstage is etc.

If you are afraid the Duo Mezzo won't work in your 21'X16'X10' room -- don't be. It will work just fine.
 
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sbnx said:
Hello Caesar,

A room 21'X16'X10' is not a problem at all. At the SouthWest Audio Fest I setup the Duo GT's. The room was 19'X14'X9'. It sounded great. Although a room may not have acoustic treatments I would assume it has normal furnishings etc. For example, a rug on the floor, chair/sofa, window curtain etc. So it is really not an echo chamber. Most normal, furnished rooms have an RT60 in the 0.5 range which it very manageable. Horns also make the setup much easier compred with other types of speakers because of their directivity. There is less sound spraying to the sides and behind the speaker.

The speaker setup is 95% "physics" and 5% personal taste. The setup process is about organizing the sound and making it work with the room. The personal tast part is small by comparison. I mean everyone wants mostly the same stuff...right. We all want controlled, detailed, textured bass. We all want great, accurate tone. We all want silky hights. We don't want any brightness. We all want a nice soundstage. etc. The personal taste might be things like a little more warmth or how high the soundstage is etc.

If you are afraid the Duo Mezzo won't work in your 21'X16'X10' room -- don't be. It will work just fine.
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Hi SBNX,

thanks for the reply. But this is just a thought experiment - not for me. I am shooting for something a bit more ambitious in this stage of my journey :):


A bit surprised by your comments regarding the room treatments, as I am completely spoiled by good sound. These days, I very rarely enjoy dealer visits, show setups - of course, and rooms in most audiophile homes - including the big empty, purpose-built media rooms people have: 95 percent sound mediocre to me at best and are usually echo chambers. First thing I listen to is the bass. It usually lacks texture and viscerality .... causing the midrange to be muddy, and overall transparency to be sub-par....

I would agree with you theoretically on the 95 percent being the physics to get the most out of the speakers, yet how much variation do you think you would get if you got top 5 setup experts in the world doing their thing?
 
Like many who have done the full room threatment thing I have circled around and now think that most rooms done by acousticians are overtreated. Now I believe it doesn't take too much to achieve really great sound. There are those that like it livlier. If I had to pick an RT60 it would be between 0.35 and 0.4. I thik this is a nice spot. Not dead sounding.

Who do you have in mind as the top 5 people? I know who I think they likely are. I think if you gave the exact same system in the exact same room to the top 5 setup people and gave each of them 2 days I think we would find that the sound would converge to a point as the skill of the setup person improved.
 
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sbnx said:
Like many who have done the full room threatment thing I have circled around and now think that most rooms done by acousticians are overtreated. Now I believe it doesn't take too much to achieve really great sound.
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Do a search. I have been saying this for years. Glad that you have heard that sound performance is a function of the proportions of on-axis versus off-axis contributions, which can be controlled through various means, including speakers positioning and setup.
 
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sbnx said:
Like many who have done the full room threatment thing I have circled around and now think that most rooms done by acousticians are overtreated. Now I believe it doesn't take too much to achieve really great sound. There are those that like it livlier. If I had to pick an RT60 it would be between 0.35 and 0.4. I thik this is a nice spot. Not dead sounding.

Who do you have in mind as the top 5 people? I know who I think they likely are. I think if you gave the exact same system in the exact same room to the top 5 setup people and gave each of them 2 days I think we would find that the sound would converge to a point as the skill of the setup person improved.
Click to expand...

I completely removed my audiophile room treatments and have watched others do the same. In all cases, the sound always improved when combined with proper speaker and listening seat set up. Untreated (no audiophile stuff) normal rooms CAN sound great if one knows what he is doing.
 
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PeterA said:
I completely removed my audiophile room treatments and have watched others do the same. In all cases, the sound always improved when combined with proper speaker and listening seat set up. Untreated rooms can sound great if one knows what he is doing.
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For a typical home listening room of 5000 ft3 +/- , if the decorative furnishings (including furniture, floor and wall furnishings) are adequate to keep the reverberation time under a second, the room may not need other treatments. Book cases with random sized volumes are especially good, but even knick knacks help. The smaller the room, the lower the optimal reverberation time. A 2000 ft3 room might need to stay below half a second. The bigger the room, the larger the non annoying reverberation time.

In motorcycle touring we often say “A change is as good as a rest.”, meaning that if we swap bikes, especially from say a bagger to an adventure style, we use different muscles, and may continue for a longer distance.

Sometimes this audio stuff is similar… if you have two good options, and you grow tired of one (say the treated room with Trev of say .5), then you may enjoy spending time with the other (the untreated room with Trev of say .8).

YMMV, but acousticians, and especially architectural acousticians, have been thinking about this since they were assigned to design spaces for musical presentation. Even today, with elaborate design tools, it can be hit or miss.
 
sbnx said:
Like many who have done the full room threatment thing I have circled around and now think that most rooms done by acousticians are overtreated.
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I'm not sure what this actually means in regards to acousticians? what were the design goals and what are the acousticians results in building a room to listen in. As far as I know most of this is from treating corporate spaces , theaters, offices,. meeting rooms and some for recording studios. We want listening rooms which IMO is very very different. I have done rooms with a few companies that have turned out really well which from my experience are wildly different than rooms done by "acoustical professionals" In fact every "professional" room I have been in IMO is way over damped.
So my point is be careful about your "experts" and their applications towards what you are trying to do. A listening room for music is the goal, not total noise abatement, room isiolation, some numbers that may or may not correlate to msuical enjoyment and other factors that may or may not be meaningful.
I do believe however the fixing obvious problems in a listening space is really important. The lucky few that might get a good result in a room with zero treatment is IMO very few.


I don't know who the 5 experts would be however having worked with some very talented people I believe the results would be more similar than they would be different in the same room with the same gear.
 
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Elliot G. said:
I do believe however the fixing obvious problems in a listening space is really important. The lucky few that might get a good result in a room with zero treatment is IMO very few.
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Elliot, could you explain what you mean by a room with “zero treatment“? My uncle Charlie spent some time in the big house. I think he would describe his bare cell as a room with no treatment.
 
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No acoustic treatments at all! Having a magical combo of bookshelves , carpets, knick knacks and furniture is hitting the acoustical lottery.
 
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Elliot G. said:
No acoustic treatments at all! Having a magical combo of bookshelves , carpets, knick knacks and furniture is hitting the acoustical lottery.
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I consider all of those treatments. They can all be used to great effect when setting up a room. Such rooms are generally more comfortable to spend time in also. I eliminated audio file acoustic treatments like absorption panels, and tube traps.

People refer to stuff as magic or black art. Setting up a room is a skill that could be learned. I agree that some people are very good at it. I think one needs a curious mind, patience, and the ability to recognize and hear differences in order to solve problems. One also needs a target to aim for.
 
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PeterA said:
I consider all of those treatments. They can all be used to great effect when setting up a room. Such rooms are generally more comfortable to spend time in also. I eliminated audio file acoustic treatments like absorption panels, and tube traps.

People refer to stuff as magic or black art. Setting up a room is a skill that could be learned. I agree that some people are very good at it. I think one needs a curious mind, patience, and the ability to recognize and hear differences in order to solve problems. One also needs a target to aim for.
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They arent treaments they are furniture. I am not discussing comfortable or better looking these are completely other subjects.
I don't want to be baited into some arguement about he ability of people to do magic in their room with knick knacks and over stuffed chairs, this is not what treating a room is all about, If this is your world go in peace however it isn't mine nor does it have any of my real world experience.
I am glad that you are a magician with these things however in my experience these are just descriptions of those who just satisfied themselves. THis I can agree that you satisfied yourself but feelings are not facts if if you believe them. Enjoy
 
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Elliot G. said:
They arent treaments they are furniture. I am not discussing comfortable or better looking these are completely other subjects.
I don't want to be baited into some arguement about he ability of people to do magic in their room with knick knacks and over stuffed chairs, this is not what treating a room is all about, If this is your world go in peace however it isn't mine nor does it have any of my real world experience.
I am glad that you are a magician with these things however in my experience these are just descriptions of those who just satisfied themselves. THis I can agree that you satisfied yourself but feelings are not facts if if you believe them. Enjoy
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I agree that room treatment is often unavoidable. To name just one example, unfortunately there is simply no replacement for the ceiling diffusers in my room. They were *absolutely* necessary to treat room distortions, and no amount of furniture, carpeting etc will do this for you.

Others may get lucky with their ceiling requiring less or even no treatment, but in my room there was no way around it.

It also depends on how loud you listen. If your SPL are lower, you can get away with less room treatment maybe. I listen to orchestral music at 100 dBC peaks or above (for music of more sustained levels, at somewhat lower SPL) and want *no* distortion, and for that the room needs to be tamed with acoustic treatments. No magical escape from that.
 
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Al M. said:
t also depends on how loud you listen. If your SPL are lower, you can get away with less room treatment maybe. I listen to orchestral music at 100 dBC peaks or above (for music of more sustained levels, at somewhat lower SPL) and want *no* distortion, and for that the room needs to be tamed with acoustic treatments. No magical escape from that.
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I totally agree . If you turn it up you get more room interaction.
David Coperfield can't fix it with a wand and hocus pocus.
 
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PeterA said:
I completely removed my audiophile room treatments and have watched others do the same. In all cases, the sound always improved when combined with proper speaker and listening seat set up. Untreated rooms can sound great if one knows what he is doing.
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Peter, I believe this depends on the room and the speakers.

I think you are fortunate to have an old house with very solid walls and a high ceiling. My experience is that these old style rooms are naturally more conducive to getting good audio that modern lightweight rooms. I also think that your corner loaded horns interact with the room differently than speakers that are brought out into the room creating more reflective energy.

I have found my own, 80's built, room to be unusable for audio without very careful use of absorption and diffusion. This room is small, 15.5' x 11.5' x 7.9'. The walls are lightweight plasterboard on stud, with the back "wall" being almost all thin glass. Without treatment one is overwhelmed by the reflected midrange energy from the sidewalls, low ceiling and the back window. There is no perceived bass, as this just escapes through the lightweight construction.

My studio in London was the opposite, a large 30' x 23' solid construction with double brick walls. It was "sound proofed" with thick studio glass windows and massive studio doors creating a sealed vacuum tight space before acoustic treatment (the floor was wood over concrete) the RT was over 2 seconds. After treatment the RT was, from memory, about 0.5 seconds (I lost all the documentation in our move to Australia). The engineer only placed the treatment where it was necessary - side walls towards the front of the room, back wall, and ceiling.

Now acoustic engineers are like audiophiles - they don't agree on anything - and there all different schools of thought on what is the right way to treat a room. I have been playing around with it as a DIY amateur for the last 18 years and have found that it is just as important to not put treatment in the wrong place as it is to put it in the right place. In other words if you just put treatment all along your walls, you will not get a good result.

I would also add that I lived in England for 16 years between 1990 and 2006 (in Cambridge and London) and in that time I set up many systems for myself and others. All the rooms were old school solid walls with high ceilings, carpeted floor and soft furnishings. It was always possible in these rooms to get very satisfactory results without acoustic treatment.
 
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Just for clarity I did not say "No Treatment". I think the person should wade into the pool rather than jump in the deep end. Also, once you do your best finding the listening postion and speaker placement then you could target some treatment depending on what you hear.

I have done a lot of acoustic measurements in a many different rooms. My main listening room has an average RT60 of about 0.3. The "literature" from experts in the field claims that the typical funished room has an RT60 of about 0.5. I find this to be true. If the room is more sparse then the RT60 will be higher. I find 0.3 is a little lower than I would like it to be but at this point there is not much I can do without some significant changes to the room.

I 100% agree with Elliot. One should be careful who they consult as an acoustician. Many of them come from pro audio and overdamp a room as that is what is needed in a recording studio.

All of the literature talks about RT60 for a room like it is a fixed value. Perhaps the average value is fixed. But RT60 varies with frequency and position. What is more important than the average value is the smoothness of the RT60 curve vs. frequency. Seating and speaker positioning can modulate the smoothness of the RT60 a by a large amount.

About 9 months ago I setup my uncle's system. His room is pretty large but has zero soft surfaces. Tile floor. Drywall. Glass wall to the right. Hard leather furniture, Jute rug. His speakers are Revel Ultima2. Hardly the most polite speaker. Once finished it was quite amazing sounding. Overall, nice bass articulation, good punch, no ear piercing highs. The midrange could have been better but I lay that on the speaker and not the room. Still, vocals were very clear even listening at a high volume. Yes, we could still hear some of the room. I measured the system after I was done. The RT60 average was probably about 0.9 and was up at 1.1 from 1KHz to 2KHz. I did tell my uncle that he needed to figure out a way to get something that absorbs some sound in his room. I suggested placing some panels high ont the wall above his sliding glass wall. If he chose a cream color they would blend in and nobody would even notice. He still hasn't done it. Honestly though, if it were my system, I would start with some noise reduction like footers for resonance control. I could hear that effect more clealy than the room. Call me crazy.
 
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PeterA said:
I completely removed my audiophile room treatments and have watched others do the same. In all cases, the sound always improved when combined with proper speaker and listening seat set up. Untreated (no audiophile stuff) normal rooms CAN sound great if one knows what he is doing.
Click to expand...
Interesting, Peter. Glad to hear of your efforts and results.

I'm pretty sure it was me saying for years now that custom rooms and aftermarket/custom acoustic treatments are completely unnecessary and a superior acoustic coupling/interface between speaker and room are all that's needed in a reaonably even minimally furnished room?
 
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