Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

caesar · Jun 19, 2024

PeterA said:
I completely removed my audiophile room treatments and have watched others do the same. In all cases, the sound always improved when combined with proper speaker and listening seat set up. Untreated (no audiophile stuff) normal rooms CAN sound great if one knows what he is doing.

Hi Peter,
I have heard some excellent systems that don't have room treatments. But few. Majority are atrocious and echo chambers

I agree that most rooms are overdone. DDK rightfully has called excessive absorption panels as "tampons", because they suck the lifeblood out of the music.

However, I personally have no issues with bass traps in corners. I have found them to improve the bass detail, texture, and dynamics. Additionally, I have found that when the excessive bass waves, that usually was over the speakers, are removed it improves the overall transparency of the entire frequency range. YMMV, of course

caesar · Jun 19, 2024

sbnx said:
Who do you have in mind as the top 5 people? I know who I think they likely are. I think if you gave the exact same system in the exact same room to the top 5 setup people and gave each of them 2 days I think we would find that the sound would converge to a point as the skill of the setup person improved.

Hi SBNX,
Funny question, I don't know 5. I only know you, Jim Smith, and Sterling Trayle.

I have also found that many manufacturers have guys who know how to set their speakers... magico has some guy, MBL has Jeremy Bryan, Avantgarde has the blonde German guy, etc.

In terms of results, I agree with you on the box speakers. But for Omnis or horns, especially the more complex reference models, I wouldn't bet on it, if they lack experience with that type of technology

Holmz · Jun 19, 2024

wil said:
There are some threads, but you have to treat some reports with caveats. There might be guys here with significant hearing loss which could lead to playing music at excessive spls!

One could argue that the high SPL precedes the hearing loss.
I have sat meters away from people with earbuds in and can hear their “music”.

Al M. said:
Also, iPhone apps can be off by 10 dB or more, while others may be relatively spot on, thus some caveats on reported numbers.

My dedicated $20 SPL meter was also 2-4 dBA off compared to my calibrated Reed meter. Fortunately on the too high side.

I hear these tales all the time, but usually it is dB(A) versus dB(C) etc.
The iphones are repeatable and higher numbers seem to track higher SPL.

The iPhone app and the Reed SPL meter give me basically the same numbers, just I am more likely to have the phone in the pocket more often. I certainly prefer to use it over just a guess.

Al M. · Jun 20, 2024

Holmz said:
One could argue that the high SPL precedes the hearing loss.
I have sat meters away from people with earbuds in and can hear their “music”.

I hear these tales all the time, but usually it is dB(A) versus dB(C) etc.
The iphones are repeatable and higher numbers seem to track higher SPL.

The iPhone app and the Reed SPL meter give me basically the same numbers, just I am more likely to have the phone in the pocket more often. I certainly prefer to use it over just a guess.

I will concede that my formulation was ambiguous. I should have said:

"Also, some iPhone apps can be off by 10 dB or more, while other iPhone apps may be relatively spot on, ... it also will depend on the phone used."

If you checked your iPhone app against your Reed and it gives you good readings that's fine. However, an app not cross-referenced against a calibrated meter is not per se trustworthy. Just as some cheap $20 dedicated SPL meter is not per se trustworthy, as shown when measured against a calibrated Reed (I provided the dBA differences for one model; different units of that model were consistently off in the same direction).

But you are right, some of the discrepancies are also dBA vs dBC.

Argonaut · Jun 20, 2024

Some individuals , often recruited from the weak of mind, become indoctrinated into a *Cult* mentality and merely become a conduit for the extreme views of said *Cult*

Al M. · Jun 20, 2024

Argonaut said:
Some individuals , often recruited from the weak of mind, become indoctrinated into a *Cult* mentality and merely become a conduit for the extreme views of said *Cult*

I don't ever take the views of any single expert as the truth. Heck, I even disagree with some views of the designers of my favorite gear.

I just listen to what different people have to say (and experts, or self-proclaimed experts, are also just people), treat it as mere -- possibly useful -- suggestions, and come to my own conclusions based on my own experiments and experiences.

Al M. · Jun 20, 2024

I should add that my above comments are about audio experts (real or self-proclaimed). When it comes to scientific expertise and scientific consensus, it's a different story. I am a scientist myself, so I know a bit about that, also when it is about health-related things. But that's a different topic.

pjwd · Jun 20, 2024

I would love to get the assembleds comments on setting up speakers outside the equilateral triangle .. without trying I have usually ended up the around .82 ratio between tweeter to tweeter an tweeter to ear so I get that idea

But I have a situation where I have a 3m wide projection screen and the speakers are just telling me they need to be closer to the ear .. say about 3m rather than the current 3.3m and then tweeters would have to be say 3.5 m apart for other than myself to see the screen ( assuming I get the sweetspot).. they have a slightly rolled off top end so are designed to be listened on axis

Has anyone had success with that kind of highly angled set up.. I know I can just do it and listen but it's a big job so I was hoping for some affirmation .. I can't see any rechnical reason why not.
The off axis is not too much different so the other option is to point slightly away from ear to lessen thar width

Cheers
Phil

Amir · Jun 20, 2024

Mike Lavigne said:
so would you view a purpose built concert hall as seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment ?

and a listening room built and tuned to act like one also seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment?

as if going to the effort to optimize a listening room somehow infers something artificial. whereas a performance hall get's a pass.

are the best mastering and mixing studio's casually assembled based on a typical living room? recording studio's? they are tools designed to deliver. nothing casual.

not saying we can always predict with certainty how any space sounds. it's a serious process to optimize any space. but i think it's poppycock to assign undue credit to one room, and denigrate others, just because the listener does not value deep bass extension with excellent articulation, or a great soundstage with authority and scale. some of us want it all.

Every music studio room or concert hall or any listening room that use acoustic absorber panels without considering the listening experience is not good.
I never heard good sound from rooms with many acoustic panels.

stehno · Jun 20, 2024

Elliot G. said:
I dont hit buckets of balls. I hit a few to warm up and then go play. I realize that doesnt work. I am a good golfer by the way and found a long time ago if you are doing it wrong doing it more doesnt help you get better.
There are many opinions in audio that are based on very limited experience and exposure. I can tell you that what I said about most have never heard what is possible to be true. Most not all. SO many times I have been told that something is great only to listen and find out it is far from great. I can only say that my experience as a young audio lover and a hot shot that thought he knew something was changed forever when I first met HP and heard his system for the first time. I realized I knew very little. I have had the same experience on a golf course playing with a tour pro.

So if I’m understanding you correctly, there was a time in your youth that you thought yourself an audio hotshot who thought he knew everything, but since Harry entered your life you now know you’re a hotshot who knows everything?

I enjoyed Harry’s writing but still, you do realize that many considered Harry an audio hack with questionable business morals/ethics to boot, right? Yet, you think there’s prestige telling others Harry was your mentor?

Elliot G. said:
I don't understand why men in audio hjave so much resistance to learning or maybe realizing that there are those that migh t know more or help them. 10 k for a power cord but not a few thousand for an expert to come show you how to truly ge the system properly set up.
Just becausee you are a concert pianist doesn't mean you can tune the instrument!
I have never had a hole in one and I'm not sure that is actually a judge of quality. I am however a single digit handicap.

Elliot, would you at least agree when I say, in every industry and sport there’s an abundance of hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans who consider themselves sufficiently experienced, educated, and open-minded with much to offer?

sbnx · Jun 20, 2024

caesar said:
Hi SBNX,
Funny question, I don't know 5. I only know you, Jim Smith, and Sterling Trayle.

I have also found that many manufacturers have guys who know how to set their speakers... magico has some guy, MBL has Jeremy Bryan, Avantgarde has the blonde German guy, etc.

In terms of results, I agree with you on the box speakers. But for Omnis or horns, especially the more complex reference models, I wouldn't bet on it, if they lack experience with that type of technology

I did not put myself in the list. Of course Stirling and Jim as they both travel around doing setup. A few others that come to mind are John Hunter of REL, Rod Tomson of Soundings, and Bob Robbins.

Jeremy does a good job with the MBL speakers. Recently I heard his setup of the MBL extreme at 3mA in Houston. It had the best imaging I have heard from MBL speakers. Still diffuse and big. They just aren't my cup of tea and I have not personally worked with them so I don't know what is possible.

The blonde German guy is Armin Kraus.

As you mentioned, there is a difference in someone who can walk in and setup almost any speaker and someone who has worked with a specific speaker for years. If you own that specific speaker then that person is going to be able to help you.

Amir · Jun 20, 2024

sbnx said:
Al, I agree 100%. But there are two ways to control the reflection. One is to add an absorber (or diffuser) and get rid of the reflection. This is what most people do on the sidewall at the point of first reflection. The second way to control the reflection is with speaker placement. This is actually the main idea -- very small, controlled movements to remove the "blur" caused by interactions.

100% agree.

Amir · Jun 20, 2024

PeterA said:
It is interesting. The best room/system I have heard is just a large room with carefully set up gear. It has nice furniture and decorations, carpeting and paintings, no conventional acoustic treatments. It was not even sealed, but open in two corners. The listening experience was extremely convincing, with each recording played at its optimal volume for the most convincing presentations I have heard. The only thing more remarkable than the quality of the components comprising the system was the skill with which the owner set up the speakers in the room and addressed every detail from power delivery to equipement support and cartridge tuning. The key was that the information embedded in the recording remained intact and was released into the room. This energy was controlled and managed, not removed by absorption. I had no compulsion to analyze the sound or break it down into pieces. The music simply existed in the room to be experienced. And the curious thing was that I did not need to sit nearfield for the music to feel immersive. I could walk around the room as one does at a club venue, or choose from a number of different seats, all presenting a slightly different perspective. The space was not designed for a designated seat.

I removed all acoustic panels in my room , enough space for breathing speakers and good rt is ok for me. Normal Furnitures, sofa, curtain, flower, art panel are ok for lowering rt to good range.

Amir · Jun 20, 2024

mtemur said:
Commercial room treatments are like chemotherapy medication, it’s killing you while killing cancer cells.

Room treatments don’t specifically work on problematic frequencies. More or less they’re effective on all frequencies, sucking the life out of music while cleaning nastiness.

I think room treatments are awful for sound.
Killing life and energy of music is the are of room treatments.

Amir · Jun 20, 2024

Back to speaker placement,

One of the things that make you wonder is when you place a speaker in DPOLS you feel the sound level decreased in room.

You can turn up volume to the end without any forwardness.

Synaxis · Jun 20, 2024

Thank you to Todd for starting this thread, and to all those who have contributed on a variety of view points.

This thread has been highly educational and has helped me form new opinions based off my experience of trying many of the tips / opinions shared in this threads over the last two weeks.

I can honestly say my listening last night was easily the best sound I have ever been able to coax out of my system, and am confident there is still more untapped potential.

Thank you to you all.

Ron Resnick · Jun 20, 2024

Amir said:
Every music studio room or concert hall or any listening room that use acoustic absorber panels without considering the listening experience is not good.

Hello Amir,

Would you please help us understand your objective statement of fact by detailing for us the last five or 10 music studio rooms or concert halls or listening rooms you have experienced that use acoustic absorber panels, and explain to us in each case the evidence for your generalization?

Mike Lavigne · Jun 20, 2024

Amir said:
Every music studio room or concert hall or any listening room that use acoustic absorber panels without considering the listening experience is not good.

why would anyone do that? use a tool where they did not care what that tool did. i'm not defending absorber panels, or promoting them. i use zero absorber panels.

it seems you are just throwing rocks.

I never heard good sound from rooms with many acoustic panels.

so how many acoustic panels are ok? where you liked the sound?

Amir said:
I think room treatments are awful for sound.
Killing life and energy of music is the are of room treatments.

anything besides a flat wall? and square corner? and flat ceiling? for every room and every type of speaker? 100% all the time? can bookshelves or media storage or furniture or art be used as room treatments? but anything else is 'awful'? big windows, or large panel TV's are ok? without any treatment?

so you bow at an alter of strict dogma? are these your original thoughts, or what you interpret from someone else's?

wil · Jun 20, 2024

Amir said:
I think room treatments are awful for sound.
Killing life and energy of music is the are of room treatments.

Maybe you’ve never heard a well treated room. That doesn’t mean your blanket statement is true. My experience is some treatments can allow the life of the music to bloom. Of course too much is too much.

My personal experience is that the addition of some Quadratic wide band diffusers has made a positive impact. I’ve been listening to classical piano for the last three weeks and the system is full of life from the most quiet nuance to jolting chords

I think some of this can come down to personal preferences as well. Some people may like to hear more room than me.

Elliot G. · Jun 20, 2024

stehno said:
I enjoyed Harry’s writing but still, you do realize that many considered Harry an audio hack with questionable business morals/ethics to boot, right? Yet, you think there’s prestige telling others Harry was your mentor?

Yes In fact I am not proud but very proud that Harry was one of my mentors. Harry taught me a lot about audio and music that others at the time did not . Harry was no hack and calling him names is to me insulting and shows a real lack of understanding of his place in the history of the high end. Harry was a complicated soul and at that I won't go further as that shit isn't allowed to be discussed here or in todays society for fear of offending anyone.

BTW I did not think I knew everything just thought that I knew something which in fact was I knew almost nothing.

stehno said:
Elliot, would you at least agree when I say, in every industry and sport there’s an abundance of hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans who consider themselves sufficiently experienced, educated, and open-minded with much to offer?

Yes I would agree with that. Its something that is proven to me all the time and of which I have clearly stated in my posts on this thread.
Just becasue its your opinion does not make it true! Feelings are not facts.

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